Random Sports Discussion

[ghost]

You know, the idea that Penn State concealed facts regarding Jerry Sandusky's little boy romps was something that most of those familiar with the issue, i.e. everyone, suspected, but this new report from the former FBI director Louis Freeh is pretty much going to fuck Penn State.  They should get their checkbooks ready because they are going to be out millions of dollars by the time this is all over.  

The report concluded that Paterno, president Graham Spanier, athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz "failed to protect against a child sexual predator harming children for over a decade."

"In order to avoid the consequences of bad publicity, the most powerful leaders at the university -- Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley -- repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky's child abuse," the report said.

The NCAA released a statement after the report came out Thursday morning.

"Like everyone else, we are reviewing the final report for the first time today," the statement read. "As President Emmert wrote in his Nov. 17 letter to Penn State President Rodney Erickson and reiterated this week, the university has four key questions, concerning compliance with institutional control and ethics policies, to which it now needs to respond. Penn State's response to the letter will inform our next steps, including whether or not to take further action. We expect Penn State's continued cooperation in our examination of these issues."

My personal hope is that this will open up some eyes as to what is considered proper reporting of these issues.  I know that many in my own profession are negligent in reporting problems of this sort (physical and sexual abuse) when confronted with it because of the fear of legal ramifications for themselves, i.e. getting sued.  Still, there's a fine line between reporting inappropriate contact between kids and adults and creating an enormous quagmire of whistleblowers and lawsuits and tedious investigations over every minute complaint that is made.  I can't help but believe that you could prevent most of these issues with appropriate rules and regulations regarding contact with minors (or really anyone) in a social area.  There's really no reason for two people to be in a room with the door closed by themselves.  There should always be a third person mediator involved.  Additionally, there should always, always, always be windows in any door that isn't a bathroom or changing room.  

And I guess the next step for Penn State and the government of Pennsylvania is to go after these people that covered up this mess fairly aggressively.  I don't know if criminal charges could be filed, but every avenue possible to do so should be explored.

What a mess.  

[Paelos]

The next step imo is to cancel the 2012 football season before the NCAA gives you the death penalty for doing nothing.

[ghost]

The next step imo is to cancel the 2012 football season before the NCAA gives you the death penalty for doing nothing.

Seriously, fuck what the NCAA has to say about it.  PSU should be worried about civil and criminal penalties first.  While I tend to agree with you about cancelling the season, I don't think it will do a bit of good for their impending legal woes.  I'm also thinking about this from more of a prevention standpoint. 

[Paelos]

Oh they are worried about their cash for sure. Which is why they will want to have a football season so they can pay off their debts.

This is about as close to the death penalty situation as you can get for a college football program. SMU got it for running cash slush funds through the university and repeatedly covering it up at the highest levels. These cover ups are even worse.

[01101010]

And somewhere on the University of Miami's campus, an athletic director is breathing a little easier.

[ghost]

And Ohio State. 

[Paelos]

People are already arguing that the NCAA has no right to stop Penn State from playing football. That's ridiculous. The athletic department as a whole failed. It's the very definition of a program operating completely independently off the university, and in this case being ABOVE the university.

[ghost]

I think that the NCAA governs for particular issues and this may not fall within their focus.  I don't think anyone would mind (other than PSU fans) if the NCAA were to suspend them for a year or two.  They won't do it, though, as PSU is one of the most beloved institutions in the country and a HUGE moneymaker for the NCAA.  Money talks.  It won't happen.

[Paelos]

I think that the NCAA governs for particular issues and this may not fall within their focus.  I don't think anyone would mind (other than PSU fans) if the NCAA were to suspend them for a year or two.  They won't do it, though, as PSU is one of the most beloved institutions in the country and a HUGE moneymaker for the NCAA.  Money talks.  It won't happen.

I think there's too much vitriol. This is a defining moment for the NCAA to see if they care only about the cash. It would cause a very large problem in the community if they just ignore it.

[ghost]

I don't think they will ignore it, but they won't give PSU the death penalty.

[HaemishM]

The Penn State investigation report just got released this morning.

Holy hell.  

It proves in extreme detail how this thing was being covered up at the highest levels, including by JoePa, since 1998.

IMO, anyone who knew about this shit and didn't tell police or testify at the trial needs to be in jail with Sandusky, toot suite. Ass-covering shitheels running the school letting that shit go on AND alerting the coach he had been caught just wrong on so many levels.

EDIT: And the NCAA, they need to get on the rape train to PSU just as fucking quickly. When you have a coach, AD and university president covering up CHILD MOLESTATION because it might make the football program look bad? It's time to not have those pretty football toys anymore.

[ghost]

One thing I don't like about this is that people are acting like this is a PSU problem and only a PSU problem.  There need to be evaluations at all institutions to make sure that their policies and training is appropriate for this type of situation.  One of the only ways you're going to get that is by completely destroying the PSU athletics program.

Addendum:  Here's the full Freeh report, if anyone wants to read it and is lazy. 

[HaemishM]

That's the NCAA's problem as a whole. All the violations the NCAA finds and reports on lean towards school athletics departments being corrupt, just that most of it is being covered up well. A university like Miami still having any athletics program after all the shit their football program has been up to over the years makes the NCAA look like a joke. And that's just for strippers, cash and tattoos and shit. When there's child-fucking going on? If the NCAA doesn't bring the hammer down, what good are they? It would just prove that successful, popular football programs can get away with anything.

[ghost]

From what I understand from reading the sports news outlets, the NCAA has been in touch with the PSU folks in regard to this.  A discussion on Mike and Mike or somewhere else that I was listening to suggested that it is pretty up in the air as to whether or not the NCAA can do anything.  Is this scenario addressed in their rules?  I don't know the answer to that question, but I doubt it unless it is some generalized catch all rule that would set them up for a lawsuit.  I doubt the NCAA is going to have the balls to go up against that.

But to answer your question-  the NCAA is no good.  They are a corrupt organization that is money hungry and biased. 

[Ingmar]

This has nothing to do with the stuff the NCAA has oversight over, though? Sandusky wasn't part of the football program when this stuff was going on, it didn't affect any student-athletes participating in NCAA programs, it all happened in a 3rd party charity, etc. etc. etc. I'm pretty sure it would be overstepping their power to do anything about this; the civil and criminal aspects of this all are going to fuck Penn State sufficiently anyway I would think. Seems like a prime 'get out of the way and let the real goverment do the fucking' moment to me.

[ghost]

It all has to do with what is in the "lack of institutional control" rules.  This is pretty damned clearly lack of institutional control as it involved football coaches and football facilities, but are the rules tight enough to encompass something that is quite different than they (the NCAA) are used to dealing with?  Who knows?  And in the end it will come down to whether or not the NCAA decides to continue its corrupt, greedy ways or grow a pair and do the right thing.  I'm suspecting it will be the former.

[ghost]

Nike will be changing the name of their Child Development Center and will remove Joe Paterno's name from the facility. 


 

I'm not sure why Nike didn't do this a long time ago, but at least they finally wised up.

[Paelos]

This has nothing to do with the stuff the NCAA has oversight over, though? Sandusky wasn't part of the football program when this stuff was going on, it didn't affect any student-athletes participating in NCAA programs, it all happened in a 3rd party charity, etc. etc. etc. I'm pretty sure it would be overstepping their power to do anything about this; the civil and criminal aspects of this all are going to fuck Penn State sufficiently anyway I would think. Seems like a prime 'get out of the way and let the real goverment do the fucking' moment to me.

It doesn't matter if Sandusky was employed. He was named a Coach Emeritus and had universal access to the Penn State program. The program itself knew about the issues on its watch and in its facilities. The highest levels of the program browbeat employees to keep it under wraps because they were afraid it would affect their program.

Ask yourself this question before you say it's not an NCAA problem: Would this have happened if the guy in question was a random physics professor? Would it have happened if it was the janitor? Would it have been covered up if the victims weren't random children, but actual relatives of university members? At every juncture, the administration chose football and money over justice and action. It happened because Jerry Sundusky was given access to the program by the administration, and that was the very currency he used to lure young boys into his web.

[ghost]

Ask yourself this question before you say it's not an NCAA problem: Would this have happened if the guy in question was a random physics professor? Would it have happened if it was the janitor? Would it have been covered up if the victims weren't random children, but actual relatives of university members? At every juncture, the administration chose football and money over justice and action. It happened because Jerry Sundusky was given access to the program by the administration, and that was the very currency he used to lure young boys into his web.

I've seen blatant alcoholism, drug use, theft and other issues covered up by administrations, so it's probably not too far fetched to think that a similar situation has occurred somewhere, at some time that wasn't related to sports. 

[Paelos]

Ask yourself this question before you say it's not an NCAA problem: Would this have happened if the guy in question was a random physics professor? Would it have happened if it was the janitor? Would it have been covered up if the victims weren't random children, but actual relatives of university members? At every juncture, the administration chose football and money over justice and action. It happened because Jerry Sundusky was given access to the program by the administration, and that was the very currency he used to lure young boys into his web.

I've seen blatant alcoholism, drug use, theft and other issues covered up by administrations, so it's probably not too far fetched to think that a similar situation has occurred somewhere, at some time that wasn't related to sports. 

And those problems are mostly individual without individual victims. It's not the same. A similar issue would be covering up a rape charge.

[ghost]

Ask yourself this question before you say it's not an NCAA problem: Would this have happened if the guy in question was a random physics professor? Would it have happened if it was the janitor? Would it have been covered up if the victims weren't random children, but actual relatives of university members? At every juncture, the administration chose football and money over justice and action. It happened because Jerry Sundusky was given access to the program by the administration, and that was the very currency he used to lure young boys into his web.

I've seen blatant alcoholism, drug use, theft and other issues covered up by administrations, so it's probably not too far fetched to think that a similar situation has occurred somewhere, at some time that wasn't related to sports. 

And those problems are mostly individual without individual victims. It's not the same. A similar issue would be covering up a rape charge.

Coverups happen all the time.  You still haven't convinced me that the NCAA has a clear stake in this game. 

[HaemishM]

I can't see how the NCAA wouldn't haven't some power over this. If they can skullfuck a program because a kid traded a trophy he won for a tattoo, why can't it handle a situation where the head coach and athletic director coerced a student coach (and now actual coach employed by the school) to cover up a fucking crime? I think they'd be stretching it a great deal if they tried to claim they COULDN'T do anything about this.

[Trippy]

This has nothing to do with the stuff the NCAA has oversight over, though? Sandusky wasn't part of the football program when this stuff was going on, it didn't affect any student-athletes participating in NCAA programs, it all happened in a 3rd party charity, etc. etc. etc. I'm pretty sure it would be overstepping their power to do anything about this; the civil and criminal aspects of this all are going to fuck Penn State sufficiently anyway I would think. Seems like a prime 'get out of the way and let the real goverment do the fucking' moment to me.

He was still a coach in 1998 when the first reported incident was investigated.

[ghost]

I can't see how the NCAA wouldn't haven't some power over this. If they can skullfuck a program because a kid traded a trophy he won for a tattoo, why can't it handle a situation where the head coach and athletic director coerced a student coach (and now actual coach employed by the school) to cover up a fucking crime? I think they'd be stretching it a great deal if they tried to claim they COULDN'T do anything about this.

They may.  Only an attorney (and I suspect a lot of attorneys) can say for sure.  And I don't think it will be a matter of "Couldn't do anything about this".  They will do something, it's just a matter of what.  Will it be a slap on the wrist or will it be the death penalty?  I'd like to see them shut PSU down for a couple of years to prove a point, but it probably won't happen.  So you're probably looking at a post-season ban for a year or two or lost scholarships, which seem to me to be slap on the wrist type penalties. 

[Paelos]

Under Compliance Principles of Institutional Control, Section C - Act that are likely to Demonstrate Lack of Control

#7 - A director of athletics or any other individual with compliance responsibilities
fails to investigate or direct an investigation of a possible significant violation of
NCAA rules or fails to report a violation properly.

#8 - A head coach fails to create and maintain an atmosphere for compliance within
the program the coach supervises or fails to monitor the activities of assistant
coaches regarding compliance.

Also, a Level 1 violation is now loosely listed as "A violation that seriously undermines or threatens the integrity of any of the NCAA enduring values"

[ghost]

The application of those rules to this situation sounds dicey to me, but I'm no attorney.  I'd love to hear one of the board attorneys' opinions on the matter. 

[ghost]

Looks like Penn State is going to renovate their showers to make them less child molester friendly after the Sandusky revelations. 

I can't think of anything that falls more into the "oh fuck we've got to do something to make it look like we're doing something" category.  How about just having a rule that old men don't take little boys into the showers and if you do  you get the police called on you and you're fired?  I can legitimately see Penn State being relegated in all fields (academic, athletic, research) due to the amount of money that they're going to lose on this mess. 

[ghost]

Looks like Mark Emmert is considering heavy penalties against PSU for the Sandusky issues.

I suspect that he (and the NCAA) will be all roar and then will hit them with little bite.  He's got some pretty strong words for PSU as of right now, however.

Still reeling from the content of the Freeh report, Emmert did not dismiss the notion of issuing the so-called "death penalty" against Penn State, asserting that the unprecedented nature of the Sandusky scandal could warrant extreme punishment.

"This is completely different than an impermissible benefits scandal like happened at SMU, or anything else we've dealt with," Emmert said. "This is as systemic a cultural problem as it is a football problem. There have been people that said this wasn't a football scandal.

"Well it was more than a football scandal, much more than a football scandal. It was that but much more. And we'll have to figure out exactly what the right penalties are. I don't know that past precedent makes particularly good sense in this case, because it's really an unprecedented problem."

I think this is a pretty clear signal to PSU that they need to get some self imposed penalties in order and they better be good.  If they don't, the NCAA may bring down a huge hammer. 

[Paelos]

They need to cancel this season, I think. There's nothing good that can come from these kids playing in opposing stadiums, nor can any PSU fan take pride in their product right now.

[ghost]

There's nothing good that can come from these kids playing in opposing stadiums

Yeah, I think you're right.  Hopefully greed won't win out.

[HaemishM]

They need to cancel this season, I think. There's nothing good that can come from these kids playing in opposing stadiums, nor can any PSU fan take pride in their product right now.

At the very fucking least. I hate it for the kids who had nothing to do with it, but the utter callous lack of compassion for even younger children is just beyond the pale.

[Trippy]

It's not like people are going to forget about this after a year, though. So what happens in 2013 if they cancel this year?

The best reason I heard for letting them play is that they are going to need to money to pay off all the lawsuits

[ghost]

Yeah, but I think that people will be much more forgiving of a bad situation if they self impose the death penalty for a year or two.

[Paelos]

It's not like people are going to forget about this after a year, though. So what happens in 2013 if they cancel this year?

The best reason I heard for letting them play is that they are going to need to money to pay off all the lawsuits

The 1.8 billion endowment should take care of that.

But yes, a year out of the public eye will help put some of these issues to rest. The problem right now is that not even all the lawsuits or criminal cases are concluded. That break would give things time to get resolved.

[ghost]

These civil cases will be dragging on for years to come. 

There's also the chance that cancelling the season could bring even more scrutiny on PSU.  I still think it's the right thing to do, but they're properly fucked with all of this.