Random Sports Discussion

[Cyrrex]

I don't know.  There is some kind of weird football karma here that needs balancing.  There is entirely too much cock polishing going on with Andrew Luck.  Everyone is just a little too pleased with him, and it is just too convenient to think he will come in and replace Peyton and Indy will roll on.

So I am just going to flat out say it.  I think he is going to flop.

[01101010]

I dunno if he will flop, but that team needs a lot more than just a QB. Say what you will about with-Peyton and without-Peyton, there is only so much you can do given your receiving corp and O-line. Then there is the defensive side of the ball. Indy has been declining since their last superbowl, just not particularly steep.

I say this partly projecting from my own woeful team's perspective. I keep thinking, if the Browns make the trade for RG3, what exactly is that going to do for them as a team? The O-line is suspect and the Browns haven't had a receiving corp since the 80s. So if RG3 remains upright for 5 seconds, who is he going to throw to that won't drop it? Surprisingly, the Browns defense turned a corner, but the offense just has no tools at all which makes grabbing a "franchise" QB sorta pointless. Then again, Cleveland is where athletes go to get experience playing other professional teams before getting out and actually being a success.

[ghost]

He may flop, he may not.  Who can tell?  He'll still go number one.

[Merusk]

Doesn't Cleveland do that for Coaches as well, or is Bellichick the exception?

[Cyrrex]

He may flop, he may not.  Who can tell?  He'll still go number one.

No question about that.  I just think all the "sure-fire!" talk in the media is beyond ridiculous.  I am merely predicting that the universe will attempt to balance itself out somehow. 

The road to the NFL is riddled with top prospects who never did shit.

[ghost]

Tim Couch is a nice example.  A hell of an athlete and a hell of an arm.  He just didn't have what it took to play. 

Interestingly, I know a couple of his relatives and they say that the biggest reason that he didn't stick in the NFL is that he is dumber than a box of rocks.  He couldn't memorize even the most basic playbook for Cleveland.

[01101010]

Doesn't Cleveland do that for Coaches as well, or is Bellichick the exception?

More like they go there to die unless they make a pact with Satan. Curse of Paul Brown that only a blood ritual could break. Since the New Browns:

Chris Palmer 1999–2000
Butch Davis 2001–2004
Terry Robiskie 2004 (Interim)
Romeo Crennel 2005–2008
Eric Mangini 2009–2010
Pat Shurmur 2011–Present

Yeah... not a lot of hope there. Crennel might have a shot in KC, but yeah... Factory of Sadness status. Even before that, Shottenheimer was one of the only "successes," but even then, he couldn't get over the hump.

Which actually brings me to this curse thing. The Cubs in Chicago obviously comes to mind and the Lions in Detroit, but does any other city compare to Cleveland in sports woe (in terms of actually winning a championship)? Indians were good in the late 90s (and I was at the Jake for many a sold out game back then), but still never got the Series. Cavs... /cry. Browns... /weep.

[ghost]

Well, the hit piece on Ben Howland is finally here.  SI.com did a story on him and the UCLA program trying to essentially demonize Howland.  He does sound a bit like a piece of shit, but the real story is on Reeves Nelson.  That guy is fucking nuts, and likely has antisocial personality disorder.  If I was an NBA team I would stay far the fuck away from Reeves Nelson.  

And if I were Howland I would be readying my attorney.  This is a true hit piece and will likely cost him his job.

[Paelos]

Losing games in a conference that's largely irrelevant in college basketball over the last 5 years doesn't do you many favors.

[Merusk]

Doesn't Cleveland do that for Coaches as well, or is Bellichick the exception?

More like they go there to die unless they make a pact with Satan. Curse of Paul Brown that only a blood ritual could break. Since the New Browns:

Chris Palmer 1999–2000
Butch Davis 2001–2004
Terry Robiskie 2004 (Interim)
Romeo Crennel 2005–2008
Eric Mangini 2009–2010
Pat Shurmur 2011–Present

Yeah... not a lot of hope there. Crennel might have a shot in KC, but yeah... Factory of Sadness status. Even before that, Shottenheimer was one of the only "successes," but even then, he couldn't get over the hump.

Which actually brings me to this curse thing. The Cubs in Chicago obviously comes to mind and the Lions in Detroit, but does any other city compare to Cleveland in sports woe (in terms of actually winning a championship)? Indians were good in the late 90s (and I was at the Jake for many a sold out game back then), but still never got the Series. Cavs... /cry. Browns... /weep.

I haven't been able to follow the Browns at all since moving to Cincy, I just knew they were in a perpetual losing streak.  I didn't realize it was really Cincinnati levels of bad.  So sad.

Shottenheimer was the Brown's coach I grew up with, Belichick being coach only my Sr. year of High School.

Still, I'd think it was the curse of Art Modell, not Paul Brown.  Paul's "Legacy" infects southern Ohio.

[ghost]

Losing games in a conference that's largely irrelevant in college basketball over the last 5 years doesn't do you many favors.

No, but going to three straight final fours probably would have bought him another 4 or 5 years without this sort of thing. 

[Paelos]

Losing games in a conference that's largely irrelevant in college basketball over the last 5 years doesn't do you many favors.

No, but going to three straight final fours probably would have bought him another 4 or 5 years without this sort of thing. 

I'm trying to think of their signature wins in those runs. They beat Kansas, Memphis, and Gonzaga. The rest were pretty easy wins up until they got demolished by Florida. The conference just hasn't been good in a while and gets no real respect.

[Rasix]

The fact that you're trying to diminish those final four runs is hilarious.  You are off your meds. FFS, stop.  Just be wrong about something for once and move on.

[Paelos]

The fact that you're trying to diminish those final four runs is hilarious.  You are off your meds. FFS, stop.  Just be wrong about something for once and move on.

I'm not trying to diminish them, I was simply looking up what they did. You are reading too much into what I'm suggesting. I had no idea until I did some background on it. They had some great teams who got beat in the final four by a strong Florida team that was a complete anomoly in the SEC.

UCLA had a great team, I won't suggest otherwise at all. What we're discussing is the idea of why they have fallen down of late, expectations on that team in order to win, and whether the surrounding element of their conference is a factor for the ire. What I'm getting at is that when you are a great team in a bad conference, you're forgiven. But the moment you go average, you suck and are terrible, and you get hit pieces against you where you should be canned.

Meanwhile the PAC-10-12 has fallen on harder times in basketball. 4 bids last year, 2 bids in 2010, 6 in 2009 but only 1 left in the 16. That was sort of the turning point that leads us to now. 2009 was the last year where the PAC-10-12 had serious cred, and they had the UCLA runs to thank for that. Now, I'm looking at Bracketology and they are projected to get 3 bids along with the WCC and the Mountain West. Washington as a 10, Ca as a 9, and Arizona as an 11.

[ghost]

A big reason for their demise is that UCLA has had a shitty few years.  Oregon is usually pretty strong too, and they've been down. 

Getting to the final four three years in a row is something that only K and Izzo have done in the modern tournament.  That is golden, regardless of their path.

My entire point about this is that he shouldn't have to be a babysitter for these kids.  They are adults and should be able to know when to party and when not to party.  Did he screw up with Reeves Nelson?  Sure he did.  It sounds like it would be tough not to though.  The kid is an animal.  Howland should be given a second chance. 

[HaemishM]

My entire point about this is that he shouldn't have to be a babysitter for these kids.  They are adults and should be able to know when to party and when not to party.  Did he screw up with Reeves Nelson?  Sure he did.  It sounds like it would be tough not to though.  The kid is an animal.  Howland should be given a second chance. 

Have you BEEN to college? Yes, they are "adults" but let's face it... college kids don't often act like it. That's why you get the "LOLCOLLEGE" response from people when you mention things like partying by college athletes. Someone will have that faraway look in their eyes that signifies they are remembering the time they drank 17 shots of Jager and ended the night face down in a mud puddle with a diaper on after having run a train on some passed out sorority chick. And what the fuck was that badger doing there?

Athletes who have been courted by multiple big name schools, whose faces are plastered on television and who get interviewed by ESPN dudes in their locker have to be really mature individuals to not get their heads turned by the notoriety. That's not to excuse it, nor is it to say the coach should be their babysitter. But he damn well better know what's going on and try to make sure his players aren't getting busted by the cops, or doing crazy whacked out shit like trying to injure their teammates in practice running a illegal pick because "dude looked at me funny."

[ghost]

These guys are 18 and can vote.  They should act like adults.  If people that age can't act like grownups we should take away that right to vote and basically all other adult privileges until they reach 21 (something I'm not entirely opposed to).

I agree with you that he should have had a better grip on the situation, but we weren't there.  All we have is this hit piece of "journalism" to go on, and I daresay that it's pretty biased.  Another thing is that sociopaths like Reeves Nelson are pretty good at hiding things and also good at bullying.  It sounds to me like he was also bullying the coach. 

[Paelos]

These guys are 18 and can vote.  They should act like adults.

Do you remember 18? If you did, and you remember the people you hung around with, you'd slap yourself for making that statement.

[HaemishM]

These guys are 18 and can vote.  They should act like adults.  If people that age can't act like grownups we should take away that right to vote and basically all other adult privileges until they reach 21 (something I'm not entirely opposed to).

Sure they SHOULD act like adults. They don't. Fuck it, I didn't and I was both intelligent and fairly mature. I got drunk off my ass and drove that way more times than I care to remember, despite knowing how fucktastically stupid that is. I did the same thing at 21. An arbitrary number of birthdays that comes attached to a privilege to choose your society's government does not in any way signify an ability to act responsibly. I know people twice that age who don't act as responsibly as my teenage nephew.

[WayAbvPar]

These guys are 18 and can vote.  They should act like adults.  If people that age can't act like grownups we should take away that right to vote and basically all other adult privileges until they reach 21 (something I'm not entirely opposed to).

Congratulations. You finally made a post SO fucking stupid I can't unroll my eyes. Anyone know a good surgeon?

[ghost]

These guys are 18 and can vote.  They should act like adults.  If people that age can't act like grownups we should take away that right to vote and basically all other adult privileges until they reach 21 (something I'm not entirely opposed to).

Congratulations. You finally made a post SO fucking stupid I can't unroll my eyes. Anyone know a good surgeon?

Really dude?  Does it matter when your head is up your ass?   

Or do you need the surgeon to remove that for you?

[WayAbvPar]

Yes, it is me whose head is up his ass. That must be what it is.   

[ghost]

I'm going to attempt to not turn this into fisticuffs, even though you're clearly looking for some PvP action here.  It is perfectly appropriate and reasonable to expect people who are considered adults to behave as such.  I don't care if they are 18 or 98.  That expectation involves not breaking the law, being good to those folks that are around us and generally not being a jackass.  If you believe otherwise it certainly is you that has your head up your ass.   

[HaemishM]

At 18, they are ACCOUNTABLE for doing stupid things - but very few people really expect an 18 year old to act responsibly. Quite frankly, I don't think they should, because at 18, you learn when not to be a jackass by not having the fallback of your parents and your status as a minor. College athletes, especially at a big school like UCLA, are treated like kings, and thus, without someone on the coaching staff or the team holding them accountable for being a dumbass, they will be a dumbass because while they don't have mama's skirts as a fallback, they also don't have mama's restrictions on their behavior either. You can expect an 18-year old to be responsible - you can also expect fairies to come from another dimensional realm and grant you all the wishes you want, but unless your name is Timmy, neither one of those things is happening without some external force enabling it.

[ghost]

Well, the law holds these folks accountable and expects them to act responsibly.  There is no legal difference between someone who is 18 or 100, as far as I know (feel free to correct me if wrong, Ab).  And yes, I was 18 once, just like all of these guys and I had fun but you know what?  I had my shit together enough to actually be able to make something out of myself.  The players on this team should be able to do that on their own, without an excess of hand holding.  Bed checks and curfews are for 14 year olds.

[Merusk]

At 18, they are ACCOUNTABLE for doing stupid things - but very few people really expect an 18 year old to act responsibly. Quite frankly, I don't think they should, because at 18, you learn when not to be a jackass by not having the fallback of your parents and your status as a minor. College athletes, especially at a big school like UCLA, are treated like kings, and thus, without someone on the coaching staff or the team holding them accountable for being a dumbass, they will be a dumbass because while they don't have mama's skirts as a fallback, they also don't have mama's restrictions on their behavior either. You can expect an 18-year old to be responsible - you can also expect fairies to come from another dimensional realm and grant you all the wishes you want, but unless your name is Timmy, neither one of those things is happening without some external force enabling it.

Know why we don't expect it?  Because that's how the culture expects them to behave.  Do you think humans were lolfuckstupid until 18 our entire evolution, too?  No, that's a recent occurrence.

I expect 18 year olds will make stupid decisions because of lack of life experience.  I do not expect them to be the kind of idiots regularly athletes are because they were treated like children and catered to for so long and have their shit covered-up because big money is involved and they have talent at a kid's game other man-children like throwing money at.   Neither does the rest of the nation since, y'know, we let them carry guns and kill at 18, too.

Shit, you get it with kids in their 20's now on a regular basis, too.  "Oh, he's only 25 he does't know any better."  Fuck you for lowered expectations.

[HaemishM]

Perhaps you did. But not everyone is like you. If everyone had the same level of maturity, no, these athletes would not need hand holding. Some folks just can't handle their shit. Period.

EDIT TO ADD: It gets worse with certain sectors (like athletics or entertainment) because these people are making someone else money. College athletes are not only making the university money, but ESPN money and various TV networks. These kids are CASH COWS and they get whatever the fuck they want and can get away with. If you don't have someone like a coach keeping that kid grounded, do you really expect most will be able to handle their shit? Maybe 1 out of 100 would when given the star treatment.

[ghost]

Why wouldn't we, as a society, expect them to handle their shit?  As Merusk said, there are plenty of examples of how society does expect them to be able to function as adults.  There are lots of players/actors/musicians that do handle their shit at that age.  We generally just hear about the fucking idiots who don't, like the players in question here.  There are a ton of guys that do very, very well with that sort of pressure.  Kobe Bryant is one.  Kevin Garnett is another.  They may have very well been running around partying and what have you, but they had the sense to do it when it was time to do it and they took care of business when it was time to take care of business. 

[Paelos]

The reason we've moved away from that accountability at 18 is because we've effectively started adding on college education for 4 years as a mandatory part of the development process. It wasn't uncommon 50 years ago for the majority of adults to just get a job and move on with your life at that age.

That being said, when you exploit kids for your money, you get what you deserve when they lash out.

[Ingmar]

People have always been fuckstupid at 18, they were just fuckstupid people who had more responsibility if you go back.

[ghost]

Well, the point remains then-  if they're going to act like adolescents why don't we give them the rights and responsibilities of adolescents? 

[HaemishM]

Well, the point remains then-  if they're going to act like adolescents why don't we give them the rights and responsibilities of adolescents? 

Because they have to grow up sometime?

[Ingmar]

It isn't unusual for people to still be growing physically through their early twenties. I don't really understand why we can accept that but at 18 they must suddenly be utterly adult in every other way. The brain is still changing too.

[01101010]

It isn't unusual for people to still be growing physically through their early twenties. I don't really understand why we can accept that but at 18 they must suddenly be utterly adult in every other way. The brain is still changing too.

The draft. 

[ghost]

It isn't unusual for people to still be growing physically through their early twenties. I don't really understand why we can accept that but at 18 they must suddenly be utterly adult in every other way. The brain is still changing too.

Actually, people are still growing both physically and mentally quite a bit through their late teens and early 20s.  If you look at people that you know that go off to college at age 18 and then you don't see them again for 4 years, they often behave and act quite a bit differently.  It's tougher to see when you see them every day or week.