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ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10619


Reply #175 on: November 11, 2011, 08:12:44 AM

Again, this is stupid, reactionary shit.

Yes.  You're correct.  We've hardly seen any stupid, reactionary shit from Penn State so far.   Ohhhhh, I see.
Paelos
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Reply #176 on: November 11, 2011, 08:14:08 AM

I think there's probably 30 knuckleheads at Penn State, who will be easily controlled on gameday.

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ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #177 on: November 11, 2011, 08:17:50 AM

Maybe so.  Nothing wrong with being cautious if it doesn't hurt anyone else. 
01101010
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Reply #178 on: November 11, 2011, 08:58:27 AM

Maybe so.  Nothing wrong with being cautious if it doesn't hurt anyone else. 

Kinda like the Patriot Act eh?  why so serious?

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #179 on: November 11, 2011, 09:02:33 AM

Yes.  Not wearing a red shirt is exactly like the patriot act.   awesome, for real
HaemishM
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Reply #180 on: November 11, 2011, 09:06:12 AM

This adds a new layer of complexity:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45244328/ns/local_news-philadelphia_pa/#.TrzJB0PiE8l

Quote
DA who didn't charge Sandusky missing since 2005

No, THIS is the weird bit:

Quote
This district attorney who had “a bitter taste in his mouth for the [Penn State] program, and its coach,” according to his nephew, and yet never prosecuted Sandusky, disappeared on April 15, 2005, after telling his girlfriend that he was going on a drive.

Ray Gricar’s car was found the next day in a Lewisburg parking lot and his laptop, sans hard drive, was found in the Susquehanna River, according to the Patriot-News.

Laptop hard drive thrown in the river? Sounds like a hit to me.

naum
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Reply #181 on: November 11, 2011, 11:04:38 AM

This adds a new layer of complexity:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45244328/ns/local_news-philadelphia_pa/#.TrzJB0PiE8l

Quote
DA who didn't charge Sandusky missing since 2005

No, THIS is the weird bit:

Quote
This district attorney who had “a bitter taste in his mouth for the [Penn State] program, and its coach,” according to his nephew, and yet never prosecuted Sandusky, disappeared on April 15, 2005, after telling his girlfriend that he was going on a drive.

Ray Gricar’s car was found the next day in a Lewisburg parking lot and his laptop, sans hard drive, was found in the Susquehanna River, according to the Patriot-News.

Laptop hard drive thrown in the river? Sounds like a hit to me.

NY Times article on the story also contained this blurb:

Quote
The next day, Gricar’s Mini Cooper was found in a parking lot in Lewisburg, about 50 miles from his home in Bellefonte. Gricar’s cellphone was in the car, but not his laptop, wallet or keys, which were never recovered. Months later, the laptop was found in the Susquehanna River without its hard drive, which was discovered later. It was too damaged to yield any information. On the fourth anniversary of his disappearance, investigators revealed that a search of his home computer yielded a history of Internet searches for phrases like “how to wreck a hard drive,” according to a report at the time in The Centre Daily Times.


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Ingmar
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Reply #182 on: November 11, 2011, 11:19:15 AM

Cornhuskers colors are red and white. There is fear that angry Penn State fans will lash out and attack Nebraska fans.

Please. If drunken rednecks can keep it together, I expect those educated Yankees can stop from throwing their wine glasses at each other during a game.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Yeah... you've never actually been to central Pennsylvania, have you? There's a reason they call it Pennsyltucky.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Paelos
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Reply #183 on: November 11, 2011, 11:27:32 AM

But they are high class! They've told us so!

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ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #184 on: November 11, 2011, 11:30:16 AM

Laptop hard drive thrown in the river? Sounds like a hit to me.


Absolutely this is fishy. 
Merusk
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Reply #185 on: November 11, 2011, 11:58:12 AM

Not surprising in any way, shape or form.

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Threash
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Reply #186 on: November 12, 2011, 06:26:05 AM

Anyone else think Mcqueary is getting too much of a pass on this? some people are even saying he's the only one who did the "right thing".  That's bullshit, you see a boy getting pounded up the ass in the locker room by a grown ass man you call the cops, you don't go to your bosses first to find out what they want to do about it.  Honestly i think he is the biggest culprit here, being the one who actually witnessed the abuse first hand.

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Abagadro
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Reply #187 on: November 12, 2011, 08:20:18 AM

There are also rumors that he was the main source for the Grand Jury though, so maybe he ultimately did the right thing.  Doesn't excuse his earlier conduct, but maybe mitigates it a bit. No idea if this is the case, but it might be an explanation as to why.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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Trippy
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Reply #188 on: November 12, 2011, 12:13:23 PM

Another theory is that the school is worried he might be protected by Pennsylvania's Whistleblower law so firing him at this time might get...complicated...though as you noted earlier they are soon to be knee deep in lawsuits so what's one more among friends?
Hawkbit
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Reply #189 on: November 12, 2011, 04:38:24 PM

Anyone else think Mcqueary is getting too much of a pass on this? some people are even saying he's the only one who did the "right thing".  That's bullshit, you see a boy getting pounded up the ass in the locker room by a grown ass man you call the cops, you don't go to your bosses first to find out what they want to do about it.  Honestly i think he is the biggest culprit here, being the one who actually witnessed the abuse first hand.

My issue isn't so much with the lack of police intervention from him immediately.  I'd wager he was really, really lost for awhile after seeing that.  He did the right thing telling his bosses and likely assumed that they would get police intervention going. 

My problem is how, six months later, he must have come to the realization that this was being swept under the rug.  That's what gets me; the absolute lack of justice.  He likely thought "Well, I told my bosses.  They'll do the right thing."  And when they didn't, he failed to do the right thing too.  And for that, he deserves to go down on this just as bad as the rest. 
Threash
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Reply #190 on: November 12, 2011, 05:05:26 PM

I just don't see how any reasonable man can think telling their boss is the correct course of action after what he saw unless his main concern was finding out how they wanted to deal with it, not justice.

I am the .00000001428%
Paelos
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Reply #191 on: November 12, 2011, 05:53:03 PM

I just don't see how any reasonable man can think telling their boss is the correct course of action after what he saw unless his main concern was finding out how they wanted to deal with it, not justice.

To be fair, it was the right course of action. The wrong course of action was doing nothing after finding out the dude was still wandering around after you reported him, and the wrong thing was not insisting that they get the police involved.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #192 on: November 13, 2011, 02:48:02 AM

When you are the witness to a crime, you don't go tell your neighbor, your pastor, your friend or your boss first.  You tell the police.  If I saw someone getting murdered at work, telling my boss would be the last thing on my mind.  The only reason anyone thinks that him telling his boss and expecting his boss to follow through with the authorities was the right course of action is because, despite everything that is happening, we STILL cannot stop treating these football programs as they are special and deserve special treatment.  Had I seen this happening, the first thing I would have done was grab a heavy, blunt object and ensure that this motherfucker ceased what he was doing ASAP.  I would then call the police.  No reasonable person defaults to telling the boss first.  Fuck that bullshit and anyone spouting it.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #193 on: November 13, 2011, 07:22:38 AM

In an institutional setting like this I think McQeary did the right thing going to his superiors first for something like this.  I can forgive him a little.  Paterno should have absolutely handled things differently, but then again he was getting second hand knowledge.  The real failure is at the highest levels for failing to fully investigate and prevent. 
Threash
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Reply #194 on: November 13, 2011, 10:39:25 AM

I just don't see how any reasonable man can think telling their boss is the correct course of action after what he saw unless his main concern was finding out how they wanted to deal with it, not justice.

To be fair, it was the right course of action.

Bullshit, it was the bare legal cover your ass minimum.

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Ingmar
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Reply #195 on: November 13, 2011, 10:46:55 AM

In an institutional setting like this I think McQeary did the right thing going to his superiors first for something like this.  I can forgive him a little.  Paterno should have absolutely handled things differently, but then again he was getting second hand knowledge.  The real failure is at the highest levels for failing to fully investigate and prevent. 

I think you can blame everyone quite a lot, really, but I have a little less sympathy for McQueary than for Paterno. Paterno was an old guy who probably didn't want to believe his friend of many years could actually do what people told him - denial is the most powerful force in the universe when it comes to family and close friends. McQueary actually saw it and had to see that the only result was a cover-up. I can kind of understand being in shock initially and just not doing anything but go to the coach, but I'm definitely with Hawkbit that 6 months later he should have thought "what the fuck?" and called the cops.

Ultimately prison for the higher ups and lost jobs for Paterno and McQueary feels about "right" to me. (Assuming of course it's all true blah blah blah.)

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #196 on: November 13, 2011, 12:33:00 PM

McQueary told his superiors.  I suppose he could have called the police, but once he told his superiors I would imagine that he expected them to take care of it.  I doubt very seriously he would have thought to "go over Paterno's head" to the police because Paterno and the AD should have done the right thing.  He probably didn't hear anything else about it and assumed that it was taken care of.  I doubt that he was thinking cover up.  He was in a hard spot though and I think that any of us in that position would have had a hard time doing anything differently, even though we might pound our chests on the F13 forum and talk about how we would have "kicked Sandusky's ass".
Merusk
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Reply #197 on: November 13, 2011, 12:40:23 PM

Let's change it a bit then.

You own a practice, i assume you have one hygienist/ nurse who supervises others.   She's told that one of her charges is stealing some controlled substance or another from you and selling them on the black market.  She does nothing and the one that told her never notifies you.  You're saying the only one responsible here is the lead?  After all, the other told her supervisor.

Do you think - should it come out - the medical board would hold you harmless for not knowing what was going down?  After all, you weren't told.. and the other nurse had - in your opinion - done her duty.


The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #198 on: November 13, 2011, 12:49:56 PM

I'm not saying McQeary shouldn't have some consequences.  Should he be fired?  Probably.  I just think that he was in a tough position and, while he could have done more, I understand why he did what he did. 
Paelos
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Reply #199 on: November 13, 2011, 01:48:50 PM

Bullshit, it was the bare legal cover your ass minimum.

You're armchair quarterbacking. Nobody can say how they react to a situation that is hypothetical until they are put in that situation. You go to put your shoes in your locker and see one of your superiors nailing a kid in the ass? I mean the shock value alone on that is ridiculous.

Second, sometimes people don't immediately react in the best way as their first reaction. He's part of the program and he had probably been told a bajillion times that if you see something bizarre, tell the head coach. So he did. Now, after that he should have called the police when he saw nothing happened. He should be blamed a million times over and over for that.

However, I get sick of people saying what they would have done immediately. Bullshit on that. You have no idea. You can think you know. You can be SURE you know. But when rubber meets the road is when character is revealed, and McQueary lacked character when after the shock had worn off, he did nothing.

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Abagadro
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Reply #200 on: November 13, 2011, 03:00:52 PM

Sandusky wasn't his superior. He had been out of his position for several years at that point.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
WayAbvPar
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Reply #201 on: November 13, 2011, 04:19:37 PM

I am frankly shocked at some of the posts here. It isn't like McQueary saw someone cheating on their taxes, or jaywalking, or paying off a recruit's family. He saw another human being being physically assaulted by someone bigger, stronger, and older than the victim and did NOTHING to stop it, and didn't even alert the authorities. He is an abject coward at the very best, and criminally liable at the worst. I hope that kid's friends and/or family burns his fucking house down with him in it. Fuck him eternally.

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Ingmar
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Reply #202 on: November 13, 2011, 09:37:32 PM

I honestly don't know if I would have been able to do anything immediate to stop it myself. I have literally no idea how I would react. I mean, I can say how I'd like to think I would react, but you can't know until something like that actually happens in front of you what your real reaction would be, IMO.

But if I did react like him at the time, if a few months go by, I still see this guy in the weight room, and clearly nothing has happened? Then you can bet I'd be asking my boss 'wtf' and calling the cops if the answer I get isn't really fucking good.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 09:39:08 PM by Ingmar »

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
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Cyrrex
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Reply #203 on: November 13, 2011, 10:56:16 PM

I am frankly shocked at some of the posts here. It isn't like McQueary saw someone cheating on their taxes, or jaywalking, or paying off a recruit's family. He saw another human being being physically assaulted by someone bigger, stronger, and older than the victim and did NOTHING to stop it, and didn't even alert the authorities. He is an abject coward at the very best, and criminally liable at the worst. I hope that kid's friends and/or family burns his fucking house down with him in it. Fuck him eternally.

Thank you.

They guy was raping a kid.  I can absolutely guarantee that I would have gone ape-shit on him, and damn the consequences.  I don't doubt for a minute that other people would react differently and not know what to do in the immediate situation - but ANYTHING that doesn't lead to calling the cops within 24 hours (six months?!  WTF are you people smoking?) is practically accessory to the crime as far as I am concerned.  RAPING A KID, you fucking cockweasles.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Ingmar
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Reply #204 on: November 13, 2011, 11:00:16 PM

You're freaked out, you go to your mentor, he tells you he'll take care of it. You don't necesarily know how long police investigations take, so you wait a while and figure that the dude you trust is taking care of things. I just said 'a few months' because that is the point it should become clear to even the most oblivious person that something is Not Getting Done.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Cyrrex
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Reply #205 on: November 13, 2011, 11:07:39 PM

Sorry, but that doesn't pass the bullshit test.  No reasonable person reports a violent, heinous crime to their "mentor" and expects it to get cleared up within months.  Seriously, what the shit?  Because it's "an institution" we are allowed to act differently?  Like the catholic church I suppose?

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Ingmar
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Reply #206 on: November 13, 2011, 11:37:33 PM

All I'm saying is I find it pretty easy to understand how shit like this (well not Sandusky's part, that's mental illness of the least understandable sort, I mean the failures of the lower level guys involved) ends up happening. It's nothing to do with the "institution" or anything, not really.

It's easy for all of us to stand on principle when we weren't you know, there. I really fucking hope I wouldn't make any of the same mistakes that this guy did (and that I never have to find out) but fuck, who hasn't made the exact wrong decision under extreme pressure/stress/emotional fuckedupness at some point?

It's the failure to be able to look back at some point during the ensuing months and have any kind of perspective that makes you say "OK, I need to take this into my own hands and call the cops or he's going to get away with it." That's the part that is way more fucked up. The initial response is just regular old human weakness... probably. It could be all a big cover up conspiracy even from 1998, sure. It would sure make everything simpler, just send every last one of em to prison then.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 11:39:14 PM by Ingmar »

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Cyrrex
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Reply #207 on: November 13, 2011, 11:42:17 PM

Fine - I get it that people can and will react differently.  But that's also the difference between doing the right thing and being a culpable asshole, as far as I am concerned.  He did not do the right thing by any reasonable standard, and should be prosecuted as a result.

You'll forgive me if I am raging on you, Ingmar...I have two young sons, and just the thought of this happening to some other kid puts me into a rage.   Shaking fist  Nothing personal.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #208 on: November 14, 2011, 07:22:54 AM

Fine - I get it that people can and will react differently.  But that's also the difference between doing the right thing and being a culpable asshole, as far as I am concerned.  He did not do the right thing by any reasonable standard, and should be prosecuted as a result.

You'll forgive me if I am raging on you, Ingmar...I have two young sons, and just the thought of this happening to some other kid puts me into a rage.   Shaking fist  Nothing personal.

I think all of us here would say that what Sandusky did is despicable and that McQueary should have done things differently.  It's probably silly to rant about what anyone would have done if they were in that situation, however, because none of us are McQueary.  If that attorney truly did get knocked off it is possible that he even feared for his life. 
HaemishM
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Reply #209 on: November 14, 2011, 08:15:21 AM

I just don't see how any reasonable man can think telling their boss is the correct course of action after what he saw unless his main concern was finding out how they wanted to deal with it, not justice.

He also waited until the next morning to tell those bosses. At first, I had a little bit of sympathy for him, because I thought he ran right out to JoePa's house and told him. Nope, he waited until the next morning, didn't call the police (which really is what he should have done immediately if he saw some old fucker cornholing a 10-year old) and then never followed up on just why this kiddy-diddler wasn't in jail.

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