Another One Bites the Dust: SWG Edition!

[Fordel]

This assumes that one hasn't spent time on the server, made friends, joined a guild, and became part of the manufacturing raiding system.

-fake edit-

Dammit Sjofn! 

[Malakili]

They wouldn't care about the 20,000,000 credit uber-crafted Gun of Doom that the server only had FOUR of because the guy that made it only had enough uber-components to make the four.

The hell they wouldn't.


EDIT: That is to say, if the combat in SWG wasn't shitty, the people there for the combat would absolutely hate that a) there are only four Super Awesome Guns and b) that they could not afford one. They probably didn't care in SWG because ... well, the combat was shitty anyway.

Yeah, you're just wrong here, Morad.  Even with the shitty combat I had players tracking down my friend - the 2nd best gunsmith on scyllia - for said rare items.  She was where the bulk of my best ore went because she couldn't afford to buy it up like the conglomerate of catasses that wanted to corner the market.

SWG taught me that crafters in MMOs are all the worst abuses of RL business practices you can think of just waiting to happen.

Thats why you need full PvP - crafters abusing ecomonic power? Nothing a little force can't solve 

[Fordel]

Except if they are the only supplier of said force and you are impotent without their stuff. 

[Crumbs]

This assumes that one hasn't spent time on the server, made friends, joined a guild, and became part of the manufacturing system.

So it's like raiding, only instead of fighting a big bad lore figure, you beat on rats for their meat to bait traps for wolves for their pretty, pretty pelts, in the hopes you can bribe some people to giving you not-shitty gear because they needed those pelts to line the insides of some boots. Yes, combat-centric people would totally adore that.

Let's talk about the rest of the game.  If all we ever did was gather mats and craft stuff, then yes, that would be boring.  There was a point though:  open world PVP.  Imps v Rebs.  The real fun was invading cities and taking out bases, or defending your own city.  Or just chasing people from planet to planet, or getting chased.  To do this, gear helped.  It was worth it to help get the gear made.  In that respect, it's not like raiding at all.

Open world pvp was a huge part of SWG, if not only because there was nothing else to do.  But take a look at all the subsequent games in which there was a player base who really yearned for open world pvp.  Wow failed hard, WAR tried but made the mistake of adding battlegrounds.  FE, well the first time I took out half of my team with a friendly fire AOE I unsubbed.  If a player needs a hamster pellet for every move they make, then SWG was definitely not for them...the fun was in the experience itself.

[Xanthippe]

Ok, so, crafters loved it and everybody else didn't?

So what happened?  The crafting was redone and everybody flocked to play with the new better crafting system? No, no they didn't.

So for those who claim the crafting wasn't the Holy Grail of mmo crafting - what is?  Y'all sound like a bunch of crafting h8rs.

[Malakili]

Ok, so, crafters loved it and everybody else didn't?

So what happened?  The crafting was redone and everybody flocked to play with the new better crafting system? No, no they didn't.

So for those who claim the crafting wasn't the Holy Grail of mmo crafting - what is?  Y'all sound like a bunch of crafting h8rs.

NGE happened.   Most of the people who would've liked the NGE went to WoW, most of the people who liked SWG for what it was felt betrayed by the changes.  The end.

[Sjofn]

This assumes that one hasn't spent time on the server, made friends, joined a guild, and became part of the manufacturing system.

So it's like raiding, only instead of fighting a big bad lore figure, you beat on rats for their meat to bait traps for wolves for their pretty, pretty pelts, in the hopes you can bribe some people to giving you not-shitty gear because they needed those pelts to line the insides of some boots. Yes, combat-centric people would totally adore that.

Let's talk about the rest of the game.  If all we ever did was gather mats and craft stuff, then yes, that would be boring.  There was a point though:  open world PVP.  Imps v Rebs.  The real fun was invading cities and taking out bases, or defending your own city.  Or just chasing people from planet to planet, or getting chased.  To do this, gear helped.  It was worth it to help get the gear made.  In that respect, it's not like raiding at all.

Um, that is exactly like raiding, only you're either paying out the nose for it or organizing quilting bees instead of a raid. People raid because it "helps" them do whatever it is they like to do, be it more raiding or to get some best-in-slot doohicky they can't get some other way. Generally speaking, people who like to fight are going to prefer fighting for it, not literally farming for it by growing Space Rice for the Space Chef who is friends with the Best Space Gunsmith on the planet.

[Crumbs]

This assumes that one hasn't spent time on the server, made friends, joined a guild, and became part of the manufacturing system.

So it's like raiding, only instead of fighting a big bad lore figure, you beat on rats for their meat to bait traps for wolves for their pretty, pretty pelts, in the hopes you can bribe some people to giving you not-shitty gear because they needed those pelts to line the insides of some boots. Yes, combat-centric people would totally adore that.

Let's talk about the rest of the game.  If all we ever did was gather mats and craft stuff, then yes, that would be boring.  There was a point though:  open world PVP.  Imps v Rebs.  The real fun was invading cities and taking out bases, or defending your own city.  Or just chasing people from planet to planet, or getting chased.  To do this, gear helped.  It was worth it to help get the gear made.  In that respect, it's not like raiding at all.

Um, that is exactly like raiding, only you're either paying out the nose for it or organizing quilting bees instead of a raid. People raid because it "helps" them do whatever it is they like to do, be it more raiding or to get some best-in-slot doohicky they can't get some other way. Generally speaking, people who like to fight are going to prefer fighting for it, not literally farming for it by growing Space Rice for the Space Chef who is friends with the Best Space Gunsmith on the planet.

I think there's a NO U thread for SWG already so I'll capitulate. 

People who liked SWG liked it, not sure what else there is to say.

[Lantyssa]

I am glad that existed for the people who liked it. I am. But that sounds really annoying to me. I assume the prices were outrageous? How did people make money to afford shit without crafting themselves?

Prices could very a lot.  Combat guys would make money from missions or selling materials to crafters.  They very tip-top items would often selling for huge prices, but as quality dropped so did prices.  There were people that specialized in all levels of quality, from newbie gear (because you were restricted by skills) and  selection, to quality.  As a Bio-Engineer I made custom pets, chef tissues (for food, which combat peeps would eat), and tailor tissues.  Pets I did for fun, the tissues I did to get rich, though I'd make batches of lesser tissues for crafters to make mid-range gear.  The materials were cheaper, so those batches were, and people could still see an improvement over the goods which didn't use tissues, which were optional.

But just being a crafter wasn't enough to cause high prices.  You had to know your stuff.  You had to search out a supply of the best materials -- random stats for a given spawn, limited life-spans for harvesting periods, and blueprints required identical components.  You could make a run of near-perfect items, but it might be months before you could come close again.  When I got high stat materials, I'd hoard them for special projects.  You also had to understand material qualities, which could vary between types.  Copper almost always had a high conductivity but a lower durability.  Some recipes might use any metal, but if the end result depending on durability and not conductivity, you'd want to use an iron or steel.  One might use both and you'd have to pick what to sacrifice.  Some might use highly specific materials and the only stats available might suck.  Knowing where you could use low quality and where to use high quality made a huge difference in final product.  Plus experimentation where skilled crafters could increase certain categories, yet high-end items could never be maxed in all of them.  Choosing high damage, over low point cost, over faster attack was important.  (As a Teras Kasi I had to get my local Weaponsmith to custom-build low-HAM vibro-knucklers.)

So you had producers and you had craftsmen.  Some people did it for fun, some did it for profit.  And crafters never had to touch the combat game if they didn't want to because hunters did it as a part of their normal combat routine.  Leveling could get a little grindy, but otherwise no other crafting system has come close to touching it.

[Lantyssa]

So it's like raiding, only instead of fighting a big bad lore figure, you beat on rats for their meat to bait traps for wolves for their pretty, pretty pelts, in the hopes you can bribe some people into giving you not-shitty gear because they needed those pelts to line the insides of some boots. Yes, combat-centric people would totally adore that.

Combat people were by no means poor.  They weren't second-class.

There was room for everyone to play how they wanted.  The only downside was it was difficult to both craft and do combat to the highest levels.  Thankfully as a Creature Handler my skills overlapped with other professions I enjoyed, so I could be very effective even when I didn't have many combat skills.

[Sjofn]

But just being a crafter wasn't enough to cause high prices.  You had to know your stuff.

This, too, sounds like raiding.

This is my only point, that the crafters of SWG were pretty clearly also catasses of the highest order. And I can see how people would think fondly upon a game where they could catass in a way different from every other game out there. I'm just making the point that while it was cool for the crafting people, the notion that had the combat in SWG not been shit, the combat people would've been happy as clams in that situation is probably not the case.

I mean dang, in DAoC you'd have masterpiece armor going for a bajillion gold (plat, whatever) over 99% shit because you could squeeze a little bit more customization out of it. I cannot imagine SWG would've been any different in that regard, especially because of the PvP aspect.

[Fordel]

The only thing that saved DaoC in that regard, was the fact you would get your 100% and would be DONE. Stat caps are a wonderful thing. You got your suit and went on to the actual fucking game, instead of endlessly preparing the infrastructure to maybe play the game one day.



Well, untill they made ToA and fucked it all up. (DaoC's own NGE extinction level event.) 

[Ingmar]

Ooh ooh is it time for my DAOC crafting/stat cap/hybrid class balance rant?

[Fordel]

I can EVADE it! 

[Ingmar]

 

[Morat20]

Yeah, you're just wrong here, Morad.  Even with the shitty combat I had players tracking down my friend - the 2nd best gunsmith on scyllia - for said rare items.  She was where the bulk of my best ore went because she couldn't afford to buy it up like the conglomerate of catasses that wanted to corner the market.

SWG taught me that crafters in MMOs are all the worst abuses of RL business practices you can think of just waiting to happen.

You obviously haven't met the folks with the ultra-rare BoE drops on auction houses.

Seriously, combat-types didn't bitch when they were selling the rare drops and rare materials for insane prices TO the crafters, but sure as hell bitched when the stuff came back just as pricey. There was a real level of supply and demand there.

I think the most money I made off of materials -- which I got farming birds that wouldn't have been a threat to a first day, stark naked toon -- set me for the life of the game. I didn't worry about money ever again, and all it took was two boxes of scout and a few free evenings. Crafters were paying insane amounts per unit because each bird only dropped one or two units, and the spawns were rare and only had two or three birds.

Those greedy little craftards paid me enough for it that I changed to top-end armor and weapons and had enough money in the bank to get two houses (one for me, one for my merchants) and decorate them -- and buy a few rare paintings and schematics too.

Taking that an adding a few other things led to a 25k doc buff that left your combat toon a walking god for three hours, who could earn back that 25k in about four minutes with no risk.

As to "you'd never be able to have that gun" -- frankly, you could always buy it off the guy that has it (no soul-bound items) or just wait. Sooner or later another crafter would make something just as good, although if you didn't want to wait you could find out what they needed and go find the materials yourself. I knew a few that did exactly that.

[eldaec]

The loot and resource model in SWG was the one undeniably great system.

The only game that comes close is EVE and not very close at that.

And it was unfortunate that the design of gear that came out of resources+crafting was pretty lacklustre.

[Tale]

Taking that an adding a few other things led to a 25k doc buff that left your combat toon a walking god for three hours, who could earn back that 25k in about four minutes with no risk.

As to "you'd never be able to have that gun" -- frankly, you could always buy it off the guy that has it (no soul-bound items) or just wait. Sooner or later another crafter would make something just as good, although if you didn't want to wait you could find out what they needed and go find the materials yourself. I knew a few that did exactly that.

I experienced the game differently.

I gathered my own resources and mass-produced some of the best Doctor buffs, but never sold them. Imperials knew I buffed overts for free, coverts for donation. I never buffed Rebels. I funded this by selling well-crafted Stim B (low-level heals) on the open market.

I was a Master Doctor with some Carbineer skills, plus basic Artisan and Scout skills (from memory I switched points between those two as needed). This enabled me to find resources, place harvesters, kill/harvest meat, run a crafting lab and factory, and fight in team PvP raids, all with one character. Within our player city we had armorers and weaponsmiths doing the same, equipping our alliance with the best items. Our cantina always had entertainers buffing, so we could defend the city.

It wasn't perfect, but the popular culture of queueing for buffs in NPC cities to play the PvE game or one-on-one PvP paled in comparison.

The most amazing time, though, was just after retail launch. I had crafted Doctor buffs in beta (one of only 2-3 people to do so, as far as I'm aware). I levelled up my Doctor/Carbineer in retail, buffed myself and ran around as an overt Imperial in Coronet with my more HAM than any Rebel had ever seen, mowing them down. They thought I was a hacker  

[naum]

I really wanted to like this game.

[Merusk]

To reiterate: The "you just weren't playing right" comments from raider-haters have been the best part of this thread.

[Crumbs]

To reiterate: The "you just weren't playing right" comments from swg-haters have been the best part of this thread.

[Bzalthek]

To reiterate:  You are all a bunch of bitter asstwats.

[Jobu]

I can speak specifically to the metallic gathering part of the resource system. I spent most of my time running a very high end resource empire. I would scour every planet and find the exact spot with the highest density of highest quality metal, and sell it on my exclusive vendor. I became insanely rich doing so, and helped drive traffic to and from the player city I setup shop in.

I think the best way to "get it" is that it was very much like min-maxing in a stat heavy RPG. The same warm sensation one gets from collecting all your pokemon, or power-leveling your dudes in Final Fantasy is very similar. As a bonus you got to explore and see the entire game. I had so many random, entertaining encounters with other players while I was deep in a swamp trying to place harvesters.

[Fordel]

The problem I have with 'crafting', is the same problem I have with raid-centric games or FFA-PvP games.


In order for crafting to be 'relevant' to a game, it must have it's hooks into every other aspect of said game. If the non-crafting player base can just ignore the crafting part of a game, then the crafters no longer have THEIR desired game... but when the crafter's do have their game, everyone else gets to either 'deal with it' or play something else.


It's the same way the "Wolf" wants to gank those noob "Sheep" in a FFA-style game. The Wolf doesn't have his game if all the Sheep are safely in the pen out of harms way. Give the Wolf his Sheep; the Wolf will be happy, but the Sheep certainly won't.

Wolves need their Sheep, Crafter's need their Consumers.


The Raiders have mostly adapted at this point, they actually can exist in their own little raid bubble and don't need to lord over the entirety of the rest of a game anymore in order for them to have THEIR game. Mostly...  . There's still a large chunk that "NEED" their specific raid game to be the most important thing ever and everything else must be subservient to it.

[Tale]

To reiterate: The "you just weren't playing right" comments from raider-haters have been the best part of this thread.

I don't understand your view. I liked my time in SWG after 3 years of raiding in EQ1, which I also liked. My next game was WoW raiding. Then Tabula Rasa non-raiding. They're not mutually exclusive play styles.

[palmer_eldritch]

I played a master tailor in SWG, mainly making dresses for entertainers. More recently, I've been raiding in EQ2 with a proper serious guild. I enjoyed both experiences, but they had nothing in common.

[palmer_eldritch]

It's funny though, some of the arguments on this board are the same arguments you saw on the SWG forums when the game was new.

Some players really hated having to pay another player for a gun.

[Merusk]

To reiterate: The "you just weren't playing right" comments from raider-haters have been the best part of this thread.

I don't understand your view. I liked my time in SWG after 3 years of raiding in EQ1, which I also liked. My next game was WoW raiding. Then Tabula Rasa non-raiding. They're not mutually exclusive play styles.

I never said they were.  The fun part is watching people use similar arguments in a role-reversal situation.  Foibles like that amuse me. I don't see you praising SWG to high-heaven as some holy grail while also bitching you can't get the best stuff in WoW.

To reiterate: The "you just weren't playing right" comments from swg-haters have been the best part of this thread.

[Lantyssa]

As to "you'd never be able to have that gun" -- frankly, you could always buy it off the guy that has it (no soul-bound items) or just wait. Sooner or later another crafter would make something just as good, although if you didn't want to wait you could find out what they needed and go find the materials yourself. I knew a few that did exactly that.

Barter was quite common with all the crafters I knew.  Hunter brings in materials and gets a few of the finished products in return.  Since most people supplied their friends and cities for free or at cost, and made their money from sales to outsiders, there was a lot of cooperation.

Being able to have player run cities made a huge change in social dynamics.  It's not like a city in WoW where the entire population sits, it broke it into more tribal units which got to know one another.  When a stranger was visiting your city, you knew they were.  Yet since they were rare, and you were on home turf, people often started up conversations with complete strangers!  It was completely natural.

That's important to understand, Sjofn.  Social dynamics were very different, so behaviors were, too.  You can't apply a lot of the behaviors you've seen in other MMOs to SWG because the environments were not interchangable.  It's why the game spawn multiple 200 page threads.

[Surlyboi]

That's important to understand, Sjofn.  Social dynamics were very different, so behaviors were, too.  You can't apply a lot of the behaviors you've seen in other MMOs to SWG because the environments were not interchangable.  It's why the game spawn multiple 200 page threads.

This. A million times, this. If you didn't play it. And I mean, really play it; if you didn't go out there and grind a few professions and hang with a some people and just really become part of the whole ecosystem, you won't understand. There is no comparison to raids and raiders that will ever accurately fit what happened in SWG.

[Nija]

Man, people really do have wildly different tastes.

The harvesters were the worst ever. If you thought the player housing sprawl in UO was bad, SWG was infinitely worse. You'd crest a hill and it would be harvesters as far as the eye could see. I think they finally limited the number of harvesters you could have per player, but for the entire time I played you could have as many as you wanted.

Good riddance, terrible game.

[Surlyboi]

Really?

All the other stuff the game had going on and that's what you're stuck on? Shit, I was barely on the settled planets enough to care.

[WindupAtheist]

I'm a UO guy and a non-raider and every single time people talk about this game it sounds fucking terrible

[Surlyboi]

Yeah, but that's because you're a professional troll. 

[Dark_MadMax]

Man when I was young and dumb ( now not young anymore , still dumb though) I used to troll SWG beta boards in order to convince them the game was "sh!t" and they need scrap their combat system and implement a better one. ALAS they  never listened (ahaahah  ) . So I never payed. Apparently I wasn't only one who thought everything but sandbox elements in SWG pretty much sucked. Sandbox elements were pretty damn  good I'd give them that.

They should have hired somebody who actually enjoys pew-pew games and made  a decent  combat system. That and of course whole SW license was a horrible idea.