Another One Bites the Dust: SWG Edition!

[Amaron]

But they didn't license the guys running the server to show it.

All that stuff is in the client so the server just says "show character #42" which happens to be Darth Vader.  Of course that assumes they do it all properly.   If they just half ass it and create their own Darth Vader and send that character to the client then they're fucked.

[Amaron]

No, it's really not. Lucasarts licensed SOE the rights to use the Lucasfilm-owned content in SWG. That license is expiring (which Smedley said was one of the main reasons SWG is being shut down).

The license expiring does not matter at all.  IP infringement is IP infringement no matter WHO is the current holder of the IP.   Lucas might be more likely to sue but that isn't really the discussion.

There's also the not minor fact that the SWG client, client-server protocol, and game content is all SOE's intellectual property

They are not distributing the client.   Also client-server protocols are not covered under copyright law.   Those can only be protected with patents and the EULA.   EULA's can not exclude reverse engineering for purposes of interoperability as well.   That right at least is still protected by law.

[Merusk]

For not being a lawyer, you sure try to argue like one.

Fact is, if EA or LA decide they want SWGemu dead, it will be dead.  Either via bleeding them out of time and money or judgement in their favor.  The rest is internet herf-blerf.

[Amaron]

For not being a lawyer, you sure try to argue like one.

Forgive me my profession is software development and a lot of it is reverse engineering so a bit of annoying fanatical interest in the topic tends to pop out.

Fact is, if EA or LA decide they want SWGemu dead, it will be dead. 

I agree they'll 99% likely just fold without even arguing their case.

[palmer_eldritch]

So this server doesn't include any material that is the intellectual property of someone else? It never, for example, sends data to clients which include a text string with the word "Jedi" in it? Or "Tatooine"?

It doesn't replicate systems which are the intellectual property of SOE, such as the class and skills system seen in SWG?

It doesn't depend for its operation on users obtaining a copy of the SWG client and then using that client and the assets it contains in a manner specifically prohibited by the EULA? I gather the argument would be that the person who wrote the server software (the emu) and the person using the client are different people, but the emu is literally good for nothing without the client, unless you really like command lines.

Edit: I realise I'm being a bit of a cock but the idea that copyright and intellectual property rights don't really exist any more is one of my pet peeves. Sorry.

[Malakili]

So this server doesn't include any material that is the intellectual property of someone else? It never, for example, sends data to clients which include a text string with the word "Jedi" in it? Or "Tatooine"?

It doesn't replicate systems which are the intellectual property of SOE, such as the class and skills system seen in SWG?

It doesn't depend for its operation on users obtaining a copy of the SWG client and then using that client and the assets it contains in a manner specifically prohibited by the EULA? I gather the argument would be that the person who wrote the server software (the emu) and the person using the client are different people, but the emu is literally good for nothing without the client, unless you really like command lines.

Edit: I realise I'm being a bit of a cock but the idea that copyright and intellectual property rights don't really exist any more is one of my pet peeves. Sorry.

I think what they were claiming is that the stuff that DOES isn't distributed by them, i.e. you have to have purchased a legal copy of SWG to play.  Maybe its worth making the distinction maybe it isn't, I'm no lawyer.

[Nyght]

It really doesn't matter. They may be perfectly within their rights. But if legal action is brought against them, they will have to defend themselves. That will cost coin. Game over.

[palmer_eldritch]

So this server doesn't include any material that is the intellectual property of someone else? It never, for example, sends data to clients which include a text string with the word "Jedi" in it? Or "Tatooine"?

It doesn't replicate systems which are the intellectual property of SOE, such as the class and skills system seen in SWG?

It doesn't depend for its operation on users obtaining a copy of the SWG client and then using that client and the assets it contains in a manner specifically prohibited by the EULA? I gather the argument would be that the person who wrote the server software (the emu) and the person using the client are different people, but the emu is literally good for nothing without the client, unless you really like command lines.

Edit: I realise I'm being a bit of a cock but the idea that copyright and intellectual property rights don't really exist any more is one of my pet peeves. Sorry.

I think what they were claiming is that the stuff that DOES isn't distributed by them, i.e. you have to have purchased a legal copy of SWG to play.  Maybe its worth making the distinction maybe it isn't, I'm no lawyer.

I am asking questions about how their "open source" server code works, ie the emulator itself. Does it not send text files to the client? Does it not control game systems such as skill use and gain? It can't all be client-side.

[Lantyssa]

Well, SOE has already given them their blessing, so it's only Lucas Arts that is the potential problem.

[Ratman_tf]

Well, SOE has already given them their blessing, so it's only Lucas Arts that is the potential problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekzslGuSQC8

[Crumbs]

Granted, this is around 1990, but:  Lucas didn't go after Luther Campbell for "Luke Skyywalker Records" until the 2 Live Crew got huge.  If the emu stays f2p and doesn't advertise, maybe things would be copacetic....

And who knows, maybe if they let Lucas redo the graphics and change the Ewok music he'll get on board 

[Dark_MadMax]

BTW this is another perfect example why you should never go after  shiny mainstream IP. I would bet that SWG would be a heck a lot better if it didnt have any SW in it. On top of that it wouldnt be shut down just because more mainstream  product appeared and the way needed to be "cleared". SWG was a damn solid sandbox  and it had pretty solid sub base (unlike vanguard). They could have boosted their numbers even more if they went f2p.  But alas...

[Xanthippe]

Can someone please remind me what happened with this game from its genesis, particularly the crafting system?  I'm having trouble remembering (and I only played this game for about 2 months after launch).  It seems to be considered almost the Holy Grail of crafting but I can't recall why the devs fucked it all up.

[Mnemon]

That is nice and all, but regardless of if they are truly legal or not, it will not prevent them from being sued. And given the likely depth of their pockets, I doubt they would survive even a mild assault from Lucas.

I know they've gotten a blessing from Smedley to develop the Emu. I personally confirmed it a number of years back (and still have the email).

With that said, I don't think those guys intended to ever release an emulator.

Any time they get close, they dump the whole thing and start all over again, creating all sorts of good reasons for why they're basically starting from almost scratch.

Truth is they could have released a playable emulator for servers years ago. It might not have been 100 percent (Emus never are) but it would have been close enough IMO. And the current version they have is not significantly better than past versions.

But they haven't IMO for two reasons ...

1 - They get a ton of donations. If they release the code at least some of that money goes to the folks hosting servers and communities. Remember these are the folks who already had one of their devs clear out the paypal account for thousands a few years back. So there is money there.

2 - It diminishes their role in the emu community, and people will take their project and it'll branch off in different directions.

[Malakili]

Can someone please remind me what happened with this game from its genesis, particularly the crafting system?  I'm having trouble remembering (and I only played this game for about 2 months after launch).  It seems to be considered almost the Holy Grail of crafting but I can't recall why the devs fucked it all up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Galaxies#Reception_and_criticism

[Mnemon]

For not being a lawyer, you sure try to argue like one.

Fact is, if EA or LA decide they want SWGemu dead, it will be dead.  Either via bleeding them out of time and money or judgement in their favor.  The rest is internet herf-blerf.

Dunno about that. WoW would like nothing better than to squash all private servers - and you can find dozens with a google search.

[Mnemon]

There was also a desire to not cannibalize EQ, and make the game different.

I kind of figured on this.   Did you guys feel at the time that SWG should of tried to be the first mass market MMO?    What I mean is, was there a conscious decision (due to risk/whatever) to give up on the idea of making SWG much bigger than EQ?   Or did it just not really occur to anyone inside SOE at that point?

I feel that WoW caught everyone by surprise of course but I still felt it was clear that the market was ready for a big game anyways.   It's feels like the worst problem was that Lucas didn't have many options besides SoE to work with.

The intent was absolutely to make the big mass market MMO. Making a combat only game seemed at the time the wrong way to go about that. The casual features that were in SWG were the ones aimed more mass market. And sure enough, time has shown that farming, dancing, business management, house decorating, crafting, the whole asynch play stuff, and the like ARE way, WAY more mass market than combat. Just not in MMOs... In social games.

There's a great case to be made that all the ideas were put into the wrong game on several different levels... Not just in the SW universe, but into a core MMO at all, and into a retail disk product, and into too big a product.

The combat and the content needed to be there, no doubt at all, to satisfy the core. Big miss there.

Side note: all the biggest hits in games are and have always been homegrown brands. Look up the historical performance of licensed titles... Saying "it's SW, therefore it must be huge" does not accord with reality in any other genre of game. This has not prevented half my career having been work on adapting IP from other media into games... Virtually none of which ever came to fruition. I think I have written treatments or done meetings for a dozen or so.

First thanks for your role in SWG. It was my first ever MMO and despite the pain that came with the NGE, I made a lot of friends (and enemies) that I'm still in contact with today.

As mentioned, one of the great things about SWG was the community. Some five plus years since I stopped playing, we have a guild of dozens of people who have kept in touch ready to play together again in TOR.

Personally, I would have loved to have seen what the CU could have done if allowed to breathe for more than six months. The Pre-CU period had a lot going for it, but I also think folks look at it through rose colored glasses.

The community has just gotten past the shock of the CU's launch, most of the bugs were ironed out, and people started coming back to the game. IMO the game was defiantly back on the upswing after months of treading water (or losing ground), only to have all that momentum crash up against the NGE.

[Crumbs]

Can someone please remind me what happened with this game from its genesis, particularly the crafting system?  I'm having trouble remembering (and I only played this game for about 2 months after launch).  It seems to be considered almost the Holy Grail of crafting but I can't recall why the devs fucked it all up.

Can do.

First off, the best items in the game were player made.  This made crafters not only useful but essential.

Resources weren't nodes, and they had stats that fluctuated.  For example, in April maybe you had to go to Tatooine for the best of a certain kind of metal.  In May, that same metal would have different stats, and the good stuff would be on another planet.  It was up to you to find the locations off the good stuff when the shift occurred.  Same went for hide, meat, and flora.  Instead of nodes, you "surveyed" the ground, sort of like archeology in wow, to pinpoint the best concentration of resources like metal and water that were found underground, or flora above ground.  Hide & meat, obviously, came from creatures.  Since players only got one character slot per server, crafters needed combat buddies or money to get resources.  This made everyone work together for a shared goal:  crafters got their mats and fighters got their gear.  This also made everyone get second accounts but that's another story...

Once you found the water, flora or metal, you didn't just stand there and grab it.  You needed machinery to harvest it.  Bigger harvesters were more expensive but could extract at better rates.  Harvesters needed money and resources to run, but they ran 24/7 regardless of whether or not you're online.

Once you had the mats, you didn't just stand there and rub your hands together.  You had to buy the machinery (factories) to manufacture the items.  Basically, and I'm wracking my brain to remember the details, but when you knew you had high quality mats, you made a "blueprint" instead of the item itself.  This blueprint would be inserted into your factory and you'd add x amount of each material to create x amount of items.  For example, if you wanted to make 100 copies of the same gun, and each took 10 ore, you would drop 1000 ore into your factory and whatever multiple needed of the other mats.  Again, this would take time and would run even when you were offline.  If you didn't want to make a large run of items or were leveling up the skills, you could make items one at a time, but it involved a lot of dragging and dropping.  Here's a video link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW72-dIiXgs&feature=related

At 0:31 in that vid, you'll see four slots that get filled with the same item.  It was a simple item that just needed 4 helpings of any ore.  More complex recipes had a higher number of slots, each a different resource with different quality requirements.  

When your stuff was done, give some to your guildies that helped you get the mats, sell some at a reduced price to your guildies who didn't help, and sell some at higher prices to the public.  

Selling to the public was a game in itself.  You could place vendors in your house, guild hall, or merchant tent.  Any player could walk up to them and access them like an auction house, except only your inventory was shown.  Pricing wasn't as simple as competing other sellers for the same items.  Even if 20 crafters were selling the same gun, people would seek out the best quality model of that gun.  As time went on, players knew where to go for the best stuff because word travelled fast.

Best of all, there was no such thing as bound items (until later).  So as one player received upgrades, they could give their old stuff to someone else.  

Baby's crying, no time to edit, hope this made sense

[Fordel]

That makes me angry just reading it. God damn crafting fuckers. 

[Mrbloodworth]

You used crafting tools for one offs, Factories were for copies and schematic runs. He didn't even go into experimentation points.


Talking about all this makes me pine for SWG Pre-CU. Dam it.

[Sky]

If that crafting system had fed a robust combat system (like, say, its contemporary Planetside) it would've been amazing. I've never mentioned this before.

The crafting and merchant system was really, really cool...and I wasn't involved in it. I made the mistake of trying to be a combat character.

[Mrbloodworth]

If that crafting system had fed a robust combat system (like, say, its contemporary Planetside) it would've been amazing. I've never mentioned this before.

The crafting and merchant system was really, really cool...and I wasn't involved in it. I made the mistake of trying to be a combat character.

I didn't really have an issue with the combat system other than: Doctor buffs, Eye shots, Melee VS. Ranged issues. But I suppose I agree with you mostly.

[DraconianOne]

The crafting and merchant system was really, really cool...and I wasn't involved in it. I made the mistake of trying to be a combat character.

My few years in SWG were spent either being a resource & energy vendor or flying in space. Or dancing. The combat thing passed me by entirely until shortly before the end.

Space though - too much time spent playing that.

[Fordel]

If that crafting system had fed a robust combat system (like, say, its contemporary Planetside) it would've been amazing. I've never mentioned this before.

The crafting and merchant system was really, really cool...and I wasn't involved in it. I made the mistake of trying to be a combat character.

I disagree, if the combat system wasn't horse shit, the crafting system would've been hated by the people just wanting to shoot wookies or whatever.

[Mrbloodworth]

Really, one of the best "worlds" to play in.

Raph, strip out the IP and do it again. I work for peanuts!

[Sjofn]

... sort of like archeology in wow ...

<eyetwitch>

I am glad that existed for the people who liked it. I am. But that sounds really annoying to me. I assume the prices were outrageous? How did people make money to afford shit without crafting themselves?

[Xanthippe]

If that crafting system had fed a robust combat system (like, say, its contemporary Planetside) it would've been amazing. I've never mentioned this before.

The crafting and merchant system was really, really cool...and I wasn't involved in it. I made the mistake of trying to be a combat character.

I loved the crafting but didn't like the combat system too much, as I recall.

Thanks for the pointer, Malakili, that helped.

Thanks, Crumbs, for the summary, it sounds familiar, now I remember.

What I still do not understand, though, is _why_ they fucked up the crafting system.  I don't recall complaints that it was too complex or not fun - the opposite, in fact.  I wonder what sort of data they used to determine that they needed to revamp the whole thing - the seats of their pants?  "Hey, subs are dropping, let's take the best part of our game and completely futz with it until it's a mere shell of what it used to be!"

[Simond]

Because poopsocking crafters are still poopsockers.

[Merusk]

If that crafting system had fed a robust combat system (like, say, its contemporary Planetside) it would've been amazing. I've never mentioned this before.

The crafting and merchant system was really, really cool...and I wasn't involved in it. I made the mistake of trying to be a combat character.

I disagree, if the combat system wasn't horse shit, the crafting system would've been hated by the people just wanting to shoot wookies or whatever.

This.  "Relevant" crafting is always seen as some utopia when it's really just funneling money to a few players who aren't doing anything but pissing off your combat players.  If your game isn't combat-centric, great.  If it's anything like a DIKU you're just going to drive away the players actually using the content you're producing.

Crafting-centric games also suck for the time-limited and so I do my best to stay far away from them.

Because poopsocking crafters are still poopsockers.

Exactly, but now they're running the entire economy instead of just subsidizing it.

[Bunk]

I loved the crafting, despite its poopsockiness. The problem was, it really punished you if you wanted to play solo at all. With one maxed out crafting tree, along with the basic skills to support it, there was only enough left to make a character that was about an even fight with a wamprat. So I had my cool crafter, who couldn't explore, couldn't visit other worlds, could go on hunts with friends, etc.  Would have been ok if I could have made a second character to adventure with.

I eventually quit the game when I realized that crafting had become as much of a cut throat race to the top in the game as everything else - a mediocre crafter could not sell anything, there was simply no demand for anything but the highest tier stuff. So when it started to feel like a job, that I was obligated to log in every single day, I just quit.

[Morat20]

I disagree, if the combat system wasn't horse shit, the crafting system would've been hated by the people just wanting to shoot wookies or whatever.

No, they'd have just used a terminal to locate the nearest place to buy a gun, locate the cheapest one, and buy it. They wouldn't care about the 20,000,000 credit uber-crafted Gun of Doom that the server only had FOUR of because the guy that made it only had enough uber-components to make the four.

Seriously. That's what they would have fucking done. Combat characters don't GIVE a shit. They look at what they need ("A better gun" or "Better Armor"), the cash they have (X credits) and go looking for the best they can find. (Hence vendors). They then use this damn thing to get more money to get a BETTER gun.

In fact, other than a few hard core raiders, most combat characters would PREFER the system of "I give you X cash, you give me fucking awesome weapon" to "I kill 8000 Rancors for a 0.0002% drop chance of that weapon". Because then they could kill whatever the fuck they wanted, and still be earning the money.

I made a good living as a scout by keeping an eye on the forums for people wanting new spawns of meat. A friend of mine was a Master Ranger and we'd basically go shoot and harvest everything whenever a really top-notch spawn hit, then either fill orders or auction it.

I had enough Merchant to have vendors, and I kept a set of harvestors going 24/7 -- didn't bother moving them, I'd just switch them to whatever spawn was decent. (If there wasn't one, I'd sell it for cheap grindables). Same with energy. I had a factory -- specialized mostly in furniture and paintings, since I always had tons of hide and whatnot. I made a very steady income stream that way.

I was just getting into bio-engineering when the CU hit. That was fun.

Bunk: I think I heard that, orginally the design (God I hate that word in relation to SWG. It reeks of "Shit we dropped to make the schedule, and didn't bother thinking of the consequences") was that you could drop lower-level boxes. You just worked your way up a tree. Master Weaponsmiths, for instance, would require people with the lower boxes still to make the sub-components. It's just experimentation points and keeping all those boxes fucked this -- I think because they had issues balancing the skill system for combat with the ability to drop boxes.

[Sjofn]

They wouldn't care about the 20,000,000 credit uber-crafted Gun of Doom that the server only had FOUR of because the guy that made it only had enough uber-components to make the four.

The hell they wouldn't.


EDIT: That is to say, if the combat in SWG wasn't shitty, the people there for the combat would absolutely hate that a) there are only four Super Awesome Guns and b) that they could not afford one. They probably didn't care in SWG because ... well, the combat was shitty anyway.

[Merusk]

They wouldn't care about the 20,000,000 credit uber-crafted Gun of Doom that the server only had FOUR of because the guy that made it only had enough uber-components to make the four.

The hell they wouldn't.


EDIT: That is to say, if the combat in SWG wasn't shitty, the people there for the combat would absolutely hate that a) there are only four Super Awesome Guns and b) that they could not afford one. They probably didn't care in SWG because ... well, the combat was shitty anyway.

Yeah, you're just wrong here, Morad.  Even with the shitty combat I had players tracking down my friend - the 2nd best gunsmith on scyllia - for said rare items.  She was where the bulk of my best ore went because she couldn't afford to buy it up like the conglomerate of catasses that wanted to corner the market.

SWG taught me that crafters in MMOs are all the worst abuses of RL business practices you can think of just waiting to happen.

[Crumbs]

This.  "Relevant" crafting is always seen as some utopia when it's really just funneling money to a few players who aren't doing anything but pissing off your combat players.  If your game isn't combat-centric, great.  If it's anything like a DIKU you're just going to drive away the players actually using the content you're producing.

This assumes that one hasn't spent time on the server, made friends, joined a guild, and became part of the manufacturing system.  I never paid a dime for my gear and I had some of the best on the server, because I helped secure the resources for my guild (and later, for my city).

It's a weird paradox in mmos.  People have this thing about gear quality but they want to treat the game like street fighter 2.  

[Sjofn]

This assumes that one hasn't spent time on the server, made friends, joined a guild, and became part of the manufacturing system.

So it's like raiding, only instead of fighting a big bad lore figure, you beat on rats for their meat to bait traps for wolves for their pretty, pretty pelts, in the hopes you can bribe some people into giving you not-shitty gear because they needed those pelts to line the insides of some boots. Yes, combat-centric people would totally adore that.