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Author Topic: Cheat or what? Please explain me.  (Read 7387 times)
Falconeer
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on: April 07, 2011, 04:08:59 PM

I am losing my mind and sanity and I honestly want an answer. I can even settle for "it's a bug/exploit, they are gonna fix it", but please tell me what the hell is this shit.







Photoshooped, maybe? I haven't gotten 7k myself but close to, and things are close to unplayable to my server "thanks" to pyromancer. Ideas?


Arinon
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Reply #1 on: April 07, 2011, 05:32:40 PM

I've pretty much bowed out of the Warfronts on my server group until they fix Pyros (or I have 3-4 friends on to queue with).  Not much of an idea though.

They are much worse than Champs or Sabos or whatever else they toned down in previous patches.

Even if you build your character entirely around Pyro-killing you can have a really rough go.  They stand still and have a very visible ground effect so now most healers know to pour health into them while the Pyro turns everyone else around into a fine red paste.  I see Fulminates in the 4-6k range regularly but those crazy Cinderbursts are new to me.
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #2 on: April 07, 2011, 05:59:04 PM


Yeah usually when I see a huge red number it turns out to have been Fulminate as well. I have never seen anything hit for 10k though, that's for sure.

And yeah, there is no Pyro-killing build I'm aware of, since the whole problem with Ground of Power is that 'do lots of DPS to them' is pretty much the only solution, since they are immune to any more proactive approaches. Void Knights are the closest thing I guess, but based on my limited experimentation the mana burn abilities do not scale for shit compared to lategame mana pools/regen.

The other day my team was rocking in Codex and I was and pleased that I had hit over 100k damage by the end -- second place to our team's Pyro, who had 190k.
Threash
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Reply #3 on: April 07, 2011, 06:42:39 PM

The void knight should also be taking a lot less damage from the pyro though.  And they can clear buffs/debuffs.

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Arinon
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Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 07:42:04 PM

You do take less damage as VK, but not amazingly so as it amounts to another global or two depending on if you have heals coming in or not.  The mana drains are not time efficient in the least and you can only take 3 buffs off every 15s.  This means about 50% of the time they will keep GoS up and have you dead or all but before you can try to strip it off again.  There is also no cooldown on reapplication so if you are going to pop them it has to be during a silence once you can land one.

In isolation the damage might be justified but with all the other tools?  No dice.

GoS should expend charge or let knockbacks and silences through or something.

I'm running under the assumption they are waiting until the event is over before they push any class changes out.  If not then I don't know what to think.
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 10:04:01 PM

The void knight should also be taking a lot less damage from the pyro though.  And they can clear buffs/debuffs.

Weird, I thought I scoured the VK tree looking for a buff removal and thinking 'my god if any soul should be able to remove buffs surely this is it!' and didn't find one. Obviously I was not paying very close attention.

I do have to say that the VK seemed pretty disappointing in terms of wow factor, I was really expecting some more interesting interactive abilities (like the chloro debuff that causes the enemy to heal instead of damage with their next spell, for example.) When a soul is that specialized I kind of expect more jazz, but it feels like all the Generic Tank Soul abilities are in the way of a more free-ranging tree.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 10:42:16 PM

As a PVE tank spec, VK is very disappointing. Thus far I have not found a single fight where it was preferable to a reaver/pally or a pally/warlord build and I have all three builds. One problem is most bosses, even casters don't use mana and if they do their mana pools are so large that burning it doesnt help much. It really seems like VK was intended to be the pvp anti-mage spec but as noted, its lacklustre in pvp as well.

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Nerf
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Reply #7 on: April 08, 2011, 01:39:19 AM

It's entirely possible that the picture is real, but without knowing when it taken and what kind of bugs the pyro had available to exploit, it's pretty meaningless.

We do know that it's codex, so we can be 100% certain that the pyro had the red wings double damage thing.

Beyond that, until just a few days ago, there was a bug allowing mages to use either a 2h+offhand, or 2h+mainhand+offhand, I'm not really sure what the extent of that exploit was.

Greenscale drops a staff that is +480sp, if it was just 2h+offhand, you could couple it with (best I've personally seen) a BoE t2 book drop that is +214sp.  That's 594sp, without including the int/wis from those 2 items, and without even starting to get into the rest of the equipment.  Add in a mainhand, you're up to ~800sp, without int/wis bonus from those 3 slots.  A full set of purple t2/t3 would probably max out an exploited mage just shy of 2k SP.

Now stack on a few +damg debuffs like exposure/neddra's, squirrel the guy, and the next hit would probably 1-shot him even if it was a neural prod or dot.
Threash
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Reply #8 on: April 08, 2011, 08:38:04 AM

As a PVE tank spec, VK is very disappointing. Thus far I have not found a single fight where it was preferable to a reaver/pally or a pally/warlord build and I have all three builds. One problem is most bosses, even casters don't use mana and if they do their mana pools are so large that burning it doesnt help much. It really seems like VK was intended to be the pvp anti-mage spec but as noted, its lacklustre in pvp as well.

38 vk does get an 8 second AOE silence on a 15 second cooldown, that is actually quite powerful against healers.

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Nebu
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Reply #9 on: April 08, 2011, 08:42:59 AM

38 vk does get an 8 second AOE silence on a 15 second cooldown, that is actually quite powerful against healers.

This is exactly what I don't like about pvp in this game.  An 8s AoE silence is something that should be tactical in use.  a 15s cooldown is anything but tactical. 

There are many more things I could rant about, but I'm hoping that they smooth over in the coming months.  Right now, endgame pvp is just unplayable. 

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Zetor
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Reply #10 on: April 08, 2011, 08:50:29 AM

PVP in rift is pretty broken currently, and not just as the max level. The crazy amount of 'fire and forget' AOE cc (from a lot of souls) is definitely part of it. Kinda sad when I remember WOW pvp (in any expansion, even vanilla) in greens as being more fun... ACK!

e: and I'm saying this as a champion/paragon which was top dog before 1.1 and is still easily in the top 3 of the 'pvp food chain'.. I level exclusively through pvp, in the mid-40s now. I gave up pvp on my 50 cleric almost entirely.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 08:52:01 AM by Zetor »

Jherad
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Reply #11 on: April 08, 2011, 09:07:10 AM

Also, those red wings in Codex last waaaay too long.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #12 on: April 08, 2011, 09:28:32 AM

Also, those red wings in Codex last waaaay too long.

3-4 days isn't it?

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Threash
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Reply #13 on: April 08, 2011, 09:36:41 AM

38 vk does get an 8 second AOE silence on a 15 second cooldown, that is actually quite powerful against healers.

This is exactly what I don't like about pvp in this game.  An 8s AoE silence is something that should be tactical in use.  a 15s cooldown is anything but tactical. 

There are many more things I could rant about, but I'm hoping that they smooth over in the coming months.  Right now, endgame pvp is just unplayable. 

The reality is still that massive burst will beat tactical playstyle.  You are not going to see a lot of 38 vks around because blowing someone up in a few global cooldowns is still better than just silencing them.

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Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #14 on: April 08, 2011, 10:49:48 PM

Well I finally actually went and switched my lowbie Mage alt over to Pyromancer, grabbed some decent equipment, and jumped into warfronts at the high end of the bracket. All I can say is what. the. fuck. I mean, my main was a champion through all these brackets, it's not like I am comparing this to some terrible spec. My damage was through the roof, and it wasn't just the damage. Based on the 50-level WFs I was expecting the Pyromancer to play as a kind of semi-movable turret, relying on Ground Spells and the like -- when in fact they are insanely mobile, with huge stacks of powerful instants to toss around along with the big ae channels and nukes.

It really did feel like Bright Wizards all over again -- another class that dominated not just because of specific abilities but because most of their damage could be dispatched while running around. I mean, Pyromancers get a blink? That also debuffs CCs? No shit?

In my last game at level 19 I hit 43k damage done, the next highest (another Pyromancer) being I think 21k, and all non-Pyromancers well below that. But okay, I think to myself, Black Garden favours the AEs big time, and you are at the top of the food chain, so obviously this is a slanted view.

So I join a level 20-30 Codex and I do the second highest damage on my team (third highest on the map) relying almost entirely on single target instants and never sitting at the Codex on a rock or anything comparable. Again, the only higher damage was another Mage, presumably also a Pyromancer. This is at level 20 in the 20-30 bracket. And oh now I have a ranged instant cast disarm too, lol?

Edit: and let me just add that I am not a good PvPer. My warrior regularly gets owned in fights she clearly should win on paper. Also, all these maps were very even for teams; we lost the game I did 42k by like 70 points, and the Codex map by 200 or so) so it wasn't like I was sitting there with great heals and potshotting terrible players.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 10:53:24 PM by Ice Cream Emperor »
Nerf
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Reply #15 on: April 09, 2011, 05:17:21 AM

Wow, i just had a really long post typed out and hit the wrong button, so this one isn't nearly as good.  Deal with it.

Ice cream: Lowbie mages got a ~50% damage buff, level 50s got 0-10%, so it probably feels pretty rockin' right now.


On the rest:
Rift pvp is broken right now, and bitching about balance this or balance that won't make any difference unless they fundamentally change it.

Couple things:

--Red wings +100%sp buff is stupid in it's current form - you have 20-40 people in a warfront and 1 of them gets a massive boost with no consequence?
Either make several buffs that all last until death and are permanently spawned at the start point so people have to choose which one they want and everyone gets one, get rid of it entirely, or add consequences.

+100%sp would be fine if there were tactical and personal advantages/disadvantages.  Whoever grabs the buff gets marked on the map as a rift boss and is transformed to 500% height, it lasts 1-2min and your team's points are dumped into a 'hopper' while it's active.  If you live through the duration, your team gets the points (the bonus was they had a rapemachine on their team for that duration), but if you die your team is only awarded 25% of the points earned while you had the buff, and the enemy gets the other 75%.
Personally, you'd gain 200% favor while it was active, but the same hopper system applies.  If you live through the buff you earned 200% favor while raping things with your awesome buff, but if you die you only get 25% of that pool (50% of normal), and the remainder is split among your attackers or the enemy team as a whole.

Now it's not just 'hey 1 guy gets to rape shit', but there is a new facet to the warfront and actual tactical decisions that must be made.  If the other team has the buff, you have the option of zerging and trying to steal their points, or sending a couple guys to distract them while you capture a different point.  If they split up they risk the chance of having their 'boss' die and points stolen, if they protect him they can't stop you from capturing an objective.

--CC needs to break on damage in pvp.  There is no situation where it should ever be deemed acceptable that you are forced to sit there and watch yourself die helplessly.  It's just bad fucking design.
If Dragon Age or CoD had an issue where every time you got into a fight, there was a 30-60% your controller/keyboard/mouse would stop responding for the duration and you just had to watch yourself die nobody would fucking play them.
If your buddy told you they made it that way on purpose, if you picked x or y gear loadout you could freeze people too, and if you got frozen that hitting f5 or holding XO would fix it - but only once 4-5 times, you wouldn't suddenly go "Oh, well shit that makes it all better, game of the year!"  You'd set the box on fire and piss on the ashes.

CC is supposed to be tactical, you can take people out of the fight, choose who to engage, or choose to run away, but it comes as a cost.  If you don't work as a team and everyone is just tab targetting or spamming AoE, your CC breaks and you're back at square one, hoping the other team is just as incompetent as yours.  Cooldowns do not make the ability to kill other people while they are essentially linkdead 'tactical'.  You can't even start balancing one class against another when the winner is often decided by which player's cooldown isn't active so he can turn the other into a practice dummy.

--Lastly, pvp damage (and healing)(and healing) needs to be significantly lowered.  The endgame is built around fights that require you to crank out your max HP in damage every few seconds and take massive AoE where healers are expected to be able to keep people alive when they are taking 90% health in 1 shot.  This just makes for bad pvp, where fights are either over before someone even knows that they've been targetted, or no matter how much damage you lay into someone, there's simply no way to overcome the heals they are getting.

All the gnashing of teeth on the official forums about pyro's being unstoppable killing machines is just a symptom of the root issues above.  Hell, GoS is one of the few things that does actually have a drawback to using it, you're stuck there.  People whine about the massive fulminate crits (that take 100% charge to cast), but ignore the red wings.  (100% SP in t2/t3 would be at least +900-1200sp, btw, of course it fucking hits hard)  They say that cc immunity makes them unkillable, but to me that is just more proof that cc is broken.
In the dragon age/CoD example above, if you could pick a loadout that made it so you were the only one who's controller couldn't get randomly frozen - but only if you were standing still - you would destroy everyone that had become accustomed to turning everyone into practice dummies and killing them.  That doesn't necessarily mean that you are overpowered, if anything it is even more of a reason to unfuck CC.

If the only class that can pvp and not be forced to sit there and watch themselves die has everyone screaming about how overpowered they are, and people only complain about the one spell that gives them that ability, you can really only come to 1 of 2 conclusions:

1) It's not fair that 1 class can fight back all the time if they stay in their little circle, we need to make it so people can kill them while they stare helplessly at their screen
or
2) Being able to kill someone while they stare helplessly at their screen is a really stupid fucking idea


*Yes, I know dots would either break CC or become incredibly overpowered, people would have to be careful who they dot
**Yep, AoE would probably end up getting your group killed if you break the CC on the entire enemy group instead of picking off the high value targets first, bummer
***tl;dr Nerfing classes before fixing the broken mechanics that make them OP is about the dumbest thing you can do.  I'm expecting several mage nerfs next patch.



ETA:
Apparently it's still fairly unknown that you can dispel pyro's GoS, which turns them back into squishy guys who are forced to sit there and watch themselves die like everyone else.
Also you can dispel chloro's LGV, which would make them absolutely useless until they notice it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 05:47:29 AM by Nerf »
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #16 on: April 09, 2011, 07:03:54 AM

Apparently it's still fairly unknown that you can dispel pyro's GoS, which turns them back into squishy guys who are forced to sit there and watch themselves die like everyone else.

Or they could cast it again.

Your post seems to be of two minds. Is Pyro balance irrelevant or can you just not resist the desire to nitpick? This is a thread about Pyromancers specifically, after all. And my previous post is about playing a Pyromancer and not even using my ground spells. (I spent two more hours playing, still at level 20 in the 20-30 bracket, with the same results, though the dominance in terms of impact on the maps was reduced.)

What impresses me most about the Pyromancer tree is that everything in it is awesome. Every time I spend a point I am like 'yessssss' and every time I look up the tree to see what is coming I am like 'whoa holy shit' -- it is by far the most coherent, self-synergy-heavy and self-reliant soul tree I have yet encountered in the game. About the only thing it is missing is a silence or maybe a healing debuff. (And a pet, for PvE, obv.) You don't have to make any sort of trade-offs in terms of specialization early on and I would happily spend all 51 points to fill out the tree without feeling like I just threw away some points to get that 51pt ability. (This is unlike most Warrior souls, at least.) There are definitely other souls that have more or less of this feeling, but the sheer 100% usefulness of absolutely everything in the Pyromancer tree is pretty amazing.

I mean, even ignoring your DPS abilities, which are uniformly awesome, you have:

* A 4pt-investment 8s root that is instant cast and does not break on damage.
* An instant cast ranged disarm.
* A blink that dispels CCs, which also means it is castable while CCed. This seems to include stuns though it does not break the stun -- but it does move you away from whoever stunned you.
* A single target stun (that stuns you for less time.)
* A percentage reduction to the duration of silences and stuns.
* A ground target AE 2s ranged stun.
* A buff that gives you a 10% chance of getting to insta-cast your otherwise 4.8s casting time ultra-nuke.
* Enhancement to one of your instant nukes that buffs fire damage.
* Enhancement to one of your AEs that debuffs the opponent to fire damage.
* A spell that lets you reduce the mana cost of your next 1-8 spells by 95%.
* A damage-absorbing shield of the generic sort.
* An off-GCD high-powered nuke finisher. (Yes this is just DPS but it is so perfectly-packaged for PvP it might as well count as utility. One game I got 17 finishing blows and the next highest on my team was 4.)

And then of course, one spell:

* Immunity to CC if you stand still. Also 30% damage reduction. Also gives all your abilities a 30% chance to stun for 2s.
* A spell that lets you 'pick up' your immunity-field and instant-cast it elsewhere later.


That's just off the top of my head, I probably forgot something awesome.

-

And you know, awesomeness is good. Soul trees that are full of good options are also good. But at some point it gets a little over the top, when a single soul ends up so entirely self-contained that your other two are just icing on the cake. It really just feels like the person designing the soul also a) plays one as their main, b) has no self-control or discipline concerning when to stop, and c) is the CEOs illegitimate son or has some similar immunity to peer review.

Modern Angel
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Reply #17 on: April 09, 2011, 07:10:56 AM

It's not just PvP. I'm shocked at the wide disparity in capability between DPS souls and classes. Rogues are far and away the best tank right now but their DPS specs are an absolute joke; this is compounded by them not doing ANYTHING beyond nerfing Saboteur with 1.1. I'm not sure why anyone would ever bring a non-Chloromancer healer, given that they get to DPS and debuff while they heal as well as a healing class cleric.

But maybe what's weirder to me is that there's one, maybe two, combos per class which are so far and beyond better than everything else in the class that there's zero reason to ever spec it. I was expecting the numbers to be a little closer, to not have Necrolock or Pyromancer (for example) be so far above other straight DPS souls like Stormcaller. As a friend said to me when we were talking top rogue DPS spec, rogues don't have a DPS spec, they have bard or tank specs.
Threash
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Reply #18 on: April 09, 2011, 09:34:35 AM

Rogue dps is not bad, we have rogues pulling 1k+ dps on greenscale.  Every class can at least pull 800/900 or so if specced right actually, clerics can do it while also contributing a lot of healing though.  The problem, if you wanna call it that, is that you have the ability to severely gimp yourself.  In a game like wow there is just no way two equally geared players of the same class can differ by as much as they do in Rift.  Our last greenscale raid i was pulling 900 dps, so were two other warriors that specced right, we had two warriors with equal gear in the 150-200 dps range.  We had one rogue pulling over 1k dps and every other rogue wallowing in the 400-500 range.  I consider this a feature, not a problem, not since shadowbane have i been able to play a game were how you build your character counts for a lot more than how many purples you have and i truly hope they keep it this way.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 09:39:33 AM by Threash »

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Modern Angel
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Reply #19 on: April 09, 2011, 10:02:30 AM

You may be misunderstanding me. I like that, too. I guess I'd like to see more viable builds and I'm surprised, with all the variety in skills available, that each class only has two or so real DPS builds.

Rogue DPS is, what? Saboteur or deep Nightblade (with a somewhat complex rotation plus debuff management) and that's it? Maybe Ranger?
Pennilenko
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Reply #20 on: April 09, 2011, 10:11:16 AM

Rogue dps is not bad, we have rogues pulling 1k+ dps on greenscale.

I call bullshit and require a log to prove it. AOE maybe, but single target?

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Threash
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Reply #21 on: April 09, 2011, 10:29:11 AM

This was during the infiltrator fight, not aoe.  I don't keep logs, i just look at the dps numbers people post during the raid.

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squirrel
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Reply #22 on: April 09, 2011, 12:49:40 PM

Rogue dps is not bad, we have rogues pulling 1k+ dps on greenscale.

I call bullshit and require a log to prove it. AOE maybe, but single target?


I've seen parses of NB's pulling 750+ on dummies with no buffs. With raid buffs 900 - 1K might be possible, but it's still vastly inferior to mages for the simple reason it's melee dps. RDPS rogue souls suck. Rogues may be kind of gimped, but I like playing mine. Once I hit 50 this weekend i'll be levelling my mage alt so it'll be interesting to see the difference.

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Nerf
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Reply #23 on: April 09, 2011, 07:22:05 PM

Apparently it's still fairly unknown that you can dispel pyro's GoS, which turns them back into squishy guys who are forced to sit there and watch themselves die like everyone else.

Or they could cast it again.

Your post seems to be of two minds. Is Pyro balance irrelevant or can you just not resist the desire to nitpick? This is a thread about Pyromancers specifically, after all. And my previous post is about playing a Pyromancer and not even using my ground spells. (I spent two more hours playing, still at level 20 in the 20-30 bracket, with the same results, though the dominance in terms of impact on the maps was reduced.)

What impresses me most about the Pyromancer tree is that everything in it is awesome. Every time I spend a point I am like 'yessssss' and every time I look up the tree to see what is coming I am like 'whoa holy shit' -- it is by far the most coherent, self-synergy-heavy and self-reliant soul tree I have yet encountered in the game. About the only thing it is missing is a silence or maybe a healing debuff. (And a pet, for PvE, obv.) You don't have to make any sort of trade-offs in terms of specialization early on and I would happily spend all 51 points to fill out the tree without feeling like I just threw away some points to get that 51pt ability. (This is unlike most Warrior souls, at least.) There are definitely other souls that have more or less of this feeling, but the sheer 100% usefulness of absolutely everything in the Pyromancer tree is pretty amazing.
 
-snip-


What your list doesn't mention is that you're like 'yessssss' in pvp, but it's pretty lackluster in pve.  You don't have the survivability of anything+chloro, you don't have the utility of archon, and you aren't going to top the DPS charts.  Oh, and you have to stand in a little circle to get your bonuses.

I am of two minds on the pvp stance though - pyro's *do* have a significant advantage right now, but pvp balance as a whole is just a shell game until the larger issues are addressed.

Answer this for me (as a 50 warrior, not as a 20-30 pyro, because 1-49 mean nothing in pvp):

If all CC broke on damage, and pvp damage/healing were both reduced by between 50 and 75%, would you still feel that pyro was an overpowered class?
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #24 on: April 09, 2011, 08:32:58 PM

If all CC broke on damage, and pvp damage/healing were both reduced by between 50 and 75%, would you still feel that pyro was an overpowered class?

Well, yes, and that's what my point was in describing my surprise at how they actually play pre-GoS. Even without their CC they are very strong, which is what makes it so totally baffling how much top notch CC they get.

If all CC breaks on damage then the only thing that matters is your DPS output. So yes, they're still very powerful, because they're either still immune to the only thing that can take a strong DPS class out of a fight (CC) in a way that is not a simple DPS race (killing them first) OR they can reliably deliver very high DPS at range while moving. They have little incentive to stand in their GoS (which is now 'merely' a 30% incoming damage debuff) unless they think they can win a straight DPS fight and want the 30% edge.

All of their damage and all of their very considerable utility is either instant or on very short cast times (or a channel), which is a huge advantage in PvP -- even greater in a version of PvP in which you cannot lock someone down with CC as part of your method for killing them.

As a Warrior, my best means for killing someone involve loading them up on CC as I DPS them -- just trying to hit them without any stuns, roots or snares is only going to cut it if I crit a lot or they have no healers, and once you factor in your second proposal (reducing damage across the board) that only becomes more true.

To be honest, the damage debuff by itself is a far more elegant solution -- CC is less of an issue when you cannot burst someone to 0 health in 3-4 seconds without any hope of clerical intervention. The 'helplessly watch your character die' frustration is much less when it is just 'helplessly watch your character take 20% of their health in damage', which is something that happens now any time a Pyromancer or Champion gets to hit you. I feel far more helpless getting burned into cinders in three ultra-fast GCDs (because the thing I forgot in my list is they get a GCD-reducing cast speed buff wtf!) than I do getting feared by an AE and taking random incidental damage. Just because I get to mash one or two buttons during the former does not somehow improve my experience.

--

That said in general I do think there are too many stuns in the game, or more specifically too many very easily delivered stuns -- which kind of goes without saying, because very few individual abilities in RIFT are difficult to 'pull off'. Compared to something like DAoC, which also had some very significant stuns -- but usually placed them far down a difficult-to-land positional melee chain.

'Fire and forget', low CD and randomly AE abilities are a problem -- making all CC break on damage is, I think, a very inelegant solution, compared to simply rebalancing and reducing the presence and/or effectiveness of such abilities. But I obviously like far more varieties of CC than you do, so I doubt we will ever agree.
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Reply #25 on: April 09, 2011, 08:43:50 PM

Our last greenscale raid i was pulling 900 dps, so were two other warriors that specced right, we had two warriors with equal gear in the 150-200 dps range.

The question is, is there more than one version of 'specced right'? For any given fight? For any given tier? It is fairly obvious to me, for example, that if I respec into Beastmaster, my Warrior's DPS will increase by at least 20%. But I don't like bleeds, and I hate pets. Instead I stick with Champion/Paragon. My DPS is reduced, but still decent. But is there ever a fight that matters where my spec is going to be better than that BM spec? Or is there another spec that doesn't involve BM that does that 900 DPS?

Because sure, you can gimp yourself in dozens of different ways -- but if you can only un-gimp yourself in one or two ways per calling, then where is the payoff for the gimping 'feature'? Complexity and customization should lead to more options with which you can succeed, not just more options by which you can fail.

I am not suggesting by the way that there are definitely no other specs out there, I am actually pretty curious, but every time I hear about how Warriors are parsing this or that DPS, it involves the same souls. Maybe there is some special higher level of PvE where wildly different specs will have greater success, I don't know -- does anyone ever build hybrid Warriors? Half-tank rogues? CC-heavy mages? These options exist in the soul mechanics but the game itself does not seem to provide any opportunity for their expression as real, non-suboptimal things.

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Reply #26 on: April 09, 2011, 11:30:33 PM

As a Warrior, my best means for killing someone involve loading them up on CC as I DPS them -- just trying to hit them without any stuns, roots or snares is only going to cut it if I crit a lot or they have no healers, and once you factor in your second proposal (reducing damage across the board) that only becomes more true.

Aside from snares, this is just horrible, horrible design.  If your ability to kill people depends entirely on their inability to do anything to stop it, shit needs to be looked at.
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Reply #27 on: April 10, 2011, 12:04:53 AM

Aside from snares, this is just horrible, horrible design.  If your ability to kill people depends entirely on their inability to do anything to stop it, shit needs to be looked at.

I said my best means. Obviously, I can kill people by hurting them until they die,  but assuming they themselves have CC or escapes or snares or otherwise know what they are doing, then I need to use all the similar tools available to me. For some reason this strikes you as bad design, when for me I am just talking about like... the actual game. Everyone involved has tools, and they do their best to use those tools more effectively than the other guy.

I mean I don't know, we've had this conversation before and as far as I can tell you just don't agree with me that these things are fun, and I can't really get my head around what you think PVP should look like other than 'squirrel/mez + DPS race'. Doing straight damage as fast as possible is not really that interesting to me, I'm sorry but it just isn't even close to as tactically complex as doing damage along with the interaction of disables, stuns, silences, fears, etc.

I mean I don't know what it is about your hotbar being blacked out that makes you think the game has stopped that is so different from taking a 3k fireball to the face, these are all the same thing to me and its just about making the interaction interesting. I agree with lots of what you say about why it isn't but your solution just seems to be take the game out of the game, and I don't get it. It's not that I think there aren't lots of other ways to spin it to achieve complex interaction, but 'remove all CCs except EQ style sleep/mez' just isn't on that list.
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Reply #28 on: April 10, 2011, 12:22:22 AM

There's a reason I said I found WOW pvp at all expansions (even vanilla, which was terrible) better than rift. If I had to find a parallel, it'd be WOTLK with the ability to 'global' people and kill them in short-cooldown stuns. Only this time the classes [souls] are even more heavily lopsided when it comes to doing that shit.

Perspective as a 50 cleric (inquisitor): For a caster dps spec I'm extremely squishy (compare to necrolock, pyro, dominator, stormcaller), have only one 'escape' CC on a 1-minute cooldown that breaks easily; DOTs are not a good way to kill people when they can global you and are receiving ambient AOE healing; friendly dispels also neuter inquisitor pretty effectively. I could CC someone at range, except the CC spell has a casting time and lasts shorter than other CC. Very weak heals that do barely anything if I'm getting beat on. I can blow people up if they're in PBAOE range and somehow don't kill me by using the pve fanaticism + soul drain combo. This char'd benefit a lot from a % damage/healing reduction, since longer fights favor DOT classes (see also sl/sl warlocks in WOW BC). Due to the DOTs, I can sometimes win vs bad GOS pyros in a 1v1 standoff as long as there's LOS to hide behind. If they're defending a location, forget it. I have a dispel, but it's on a cooldown, usually gets other buffs than GOS, and GOS can be almost instantly reapplied anyway.

Perspective as a 50 cleric (pvp spec, sentinel / templar): I'm an effective force multiplier as long as people don't chain CC me with the large amount of aoe cc / silences in the game. I can typically survive one person beating on me unless it's a nightblade, champ, or pyro (GOS pyros can be los'd however, they are Someone Else's Problem; GOS pyros on my side are very easy to heal). Dominators and VKs still effectively shut me down without killing me, and it's not just the mana drains. I think a large % damage reduction in pvp could make my healer overpowered. Nerfing pvp CC would be a lot more helpful for the game overall.

Perspective as a mid-40s champ/paragon: If I can sit on something other than a pyro or a 1h/shield warrior, it's dead.. as long as I can snare it. Pyros have too much cc, damage and survivability to kill, and tanks are just hopeless even if I rotate through my various anti-melee abilities (disarm, 75% parry, stun, bullrush jousting). Necrolocks come close, but if I interrupt their soul purges and try to set up a burst (like vs healers), they can die. Good marksmen that don't keyboard turn / backpedal are basically impossible to do damage to. For all the damage, I have zero survivability, and focus fire causes me to die faster than anyone else... assuming I don't get heals. With heals (both on me and my target) it becomes a different ballgame, and I can only kill people by setting up a burst window (about once per minute) and using my CC on the enemy healer (or getting both of them low and switching to the healer during a CC). To kill a good healer, I -need- to use all of my CC and coordinate my burst abilities. Based on what champ/paragons do to my 50 cleric, I imagine this won't change much. Oh yeah, the 30-sec cooldown aoe fear is ridiculous, as has been said multiple times.

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Reply #29 on: April 10, 2011, 06:03:46 AM

Our last greenscale raid i was pulling 900 dps, so were two other warriors that specced right, we had two warriors with equal gear in the 150-200 dps range.

The question is, is there more than one version of 'specced right'? For any given fight? For any given tier? It is fairly obvious to me, for example, that if I respec into Beastmaster, my Warrior's DPS will increase by at least 20%. But I don't like bleeds, and I hate pets. Instead I stick with Champion/Paragon. My DPS is reduced, but still decent. But is there ever a fight that matters where my spec is going to be better than that BM spec? Or is there another spec that doesn't involve BM that does that 900 DPS?

We were all a flavor of bm/champ/para, not exactly identical specs.  There are actually only four dps warrior souls, and the last one excels at something different (ranged combat), i don't see a problem with having to use a combination of the three actual melee dps souls in order to do the best dps.

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Reply #30 on: April 10, 2011, 03:35:31 PM

We were all a flavor of bm/champ/para, not exactly identical specs.  There are actually only four dps warrior souls, and the last one excels at something different (ranged combat), i don't see a problem with having to use a combination of the three actual melee dps souls in order to do the best dps.

Did any of you have Paragon as the primary spec? Did any of you have BM as the tertiary spec? Did any of you have two specs at 31+? Did any of you have one spec at 51? Did any of the warriors in question have different answers to these questions?

These are actual questions, but I suspect I know the answer to all of them. 'Not exactly identical specs' sounds like a dodge to me but maybe it is a legitimate response, and the three of you were playing legitimately different types of Warriors?

Double edit: I'm also pretty curious about the answers to my other questions. Is this the same spec you use for every t2 boss fight? Do you use it for trash too? Is there, essentially, any other DPS spec in the game for a warrior who wants to run dungeons?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 03:42:30 PM by Ice Cream Emperor »
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Reply #31 on: April 10, 2011, 04:01:04 PM

No paragon main specs, no dual wielding.  I was running 24bm 28champ 15para, i know someone was running 32bm 28champ 6para, i don't remember what the third guy was running but i do know it was not the same as the other two of us.  I doubt anybody cares about trash enough to worry about having a trash spec, or bothering to do the math to find the best one.  For dungeons and range fights i use 51riftblade 15para, i bet that would do better on trash but it does slightly less single target dps, it is just not worth bothering with the pet outside of raids.  I am sure you can optimize builds for specific bosses but it does not seem worth the trouble, they are dying anyways.  Riftblade and paragon as main souls are not that far behind anymore, it is not a massive difference like it was the bm nerfs on 1.1, we could still kill everything we do now if one of our warriors was doing 800 dps instead of 900 but one spec will always do the most damage and that is what most people are going to use.

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Reply #32 on: April 10, 2011, 06:40:40 PM

Sure another 800 dps spec would be fine but obviously a 200 dps spec is not worth considering, so the question boils down to whether or not there are multiple substantially different 800-900 dps specs. If there's only one or two (and then one or two variations within those that don't affect gameplay at all) then it seems to me to kind of undermine the whole point of having 30+ possible specs. (You can have any colour you like, but the black one goes 30% faster and uses less gas.)

The complete lack of use for hybrid Warriors seems particularly sad to me, since that basically cuts out half of all possible specs outside of I guess soloing. Specialization is good, blah blah blah but I do wish some genius MMO encounter designer out there could figure out how to push the boundaries to make other kinds of builds useful.

Edit to add: in Pyromancer news, the self-sufficiency of the soul I mentioned allowed me to pick up Archmage and immediately dump 5 points into a hilarious 15% damage to players buff. (Didn't they move the same buff out of the first tier of the Warrior pvp soul tree? And also reduce it to like 10%?)



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Reply #33 on: April 10, 2011, 09:01:40 PM

Before 1.1 there used to be 3 specs + clerics. Sabo ,Champ and Pyro. Champs and sabos used to counter pyros  , now pyro has no counters.  I think ever calling has a good  spec now ,  pyros are over the top and when they get nerfed it probably will be "balanced" . Though I kinda liked  globaling people as champ or exploding them as sabo. If they made all classes ridiculously OP I think game would be actually more fun.
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Reply #34 on: April 10, 2011, 11:23:16 PM

Rogue dps is not bad, we have rogues pulling 1k+ dps on greenscale.  Every class can at least pull 800/900 or so if specced right actually, clerics can do it while also contributing a lot of healing though.  The problem, if you wanna call it that, is that you have the ability to severely gimp yourself.  In a game like wow there is just no way two equally geared players of the same class can differ by as much as they do in Rift.  Our last greenscale raid i was pulling 900 dps, so were two other warriors that specced right, we had two warriors with equal gear in the 150-200 dps range.  We had one rogue pulling over 1k dps and every other rogue wallowing in the 400-500 range.  I consider this a feature, not a problem, not since shadowbane have i been able to play a game were how you build your character counts for a lot more than how many purples you have and i truly hope they keep it this way.

Which rogue spec?  Which phase of the fight?  There's a lot of AOE in that fight as well.  I've yet to witness a Rogue that can pull 1k+ dps over a long period of time rather than burst.  I almost have the best gear in the game.. almost. 2-3 items left.  And I can get into the high 900s as a Rogue, though I haven't raid tested Greenscale yet since I've gotten stuck with bard duty.

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