Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 29, 2024, 06:04:42 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  Topic: "Bill Roper: Reflections on Hellgate" 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: "Bill Roper: Reflections on Hellgate"  (Read 11967 times)
Lucas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3298

Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.


on: February 07, 2011, 09:58:54 AM

Quote
[In this extensive interview conducted at GDC China, Bill Roper, former developer of Hellgate: London, sifts through the aftermath of that doomed project and reflects on mistakes made, community reaction, and how decisions get made in games.]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6281/bill_roper_reflections_on_hellgate.php

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10596


Reply #1 on: February 07, 2011, 10:45:23 AM

I don't have time to read this right now, but I think he did something like after the shut down, is there a lot of new info on here?  Hellgate is a sad story, so I'm interested to see what he has to say.
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 12:03:10 PM

 swamp poop
Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 12:31:44 PM

Read it in a peon voice and try not to go insane.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Furiously
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7199


WWW
Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 01:00:12 PM

So what I got is: If you are a VC, don't let the kids run around in the candystore.....

Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10596


Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 02:05:43 PM

I still sometimes look at the hellgate box sitting on my shelf and wonder what could've been.  It felt really close to being pretty damned awesome, and I continued to play it despite its bugs until they announced they were ceasing development and would eventually shut down.

I won't rehash it all again I suppose, but I wish they hadn't fucked it up.

EDIT:

Quote
BR: Yeah. Yeah. I think, if we would have had another six months, maybe things would have been different.

Actually, he learned nothing at all as it turns out.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 02:16:42 PM by Malakili »
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10619


Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 02:20:54 PM

My take was that he was very cognizant that they tried to do too  much..................coke off of a hooker's ass. 
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42628

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #7 on: February 07, 2011, 03:18:14 PM

Lesson #1 from Hellgate? Don't let game developers be business people.

Amaron
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2020


Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 01:02:42 PM

Quote
BR: Right, down in Irvine. Like, the Diablo guys would play the Craft games, and they'd say, "Hey, so we were playing this, and we noticed this, and we thought that, and have you guys thought about..." There was this really high level quantitative feedback on the game.

This one had me laughing.   Talk to anyone from Blizz central and you'll often get the impression that getting North to put out a decent product was a matter of much hand holding.

I only wish I could of seen the discussion where they pushed to have Diablo changed from turn based into real time.
UnSub
Contributor
Posts: 8064


WWW
Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 05:05:24 PM

My take-away from that interview was:

1) The Blizzard Way only works at Blizzard and then screws up developers who leave but try to use the same method.

2) Blizzard was worried about how much WoW cost to develop too before it launched.

3) Hype hangs by its own rope.

4) The internet is mean.

Azazel
Contributor
Posts: 7735


Reply #10 on: February 08, 2011, 05:36:09 PM

4) The internet is mean.

I heard that recently from another high profile developer...  Ohhhhh, I see.

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
Reply #11 on: February 08, 2011, 05:38:33 PM

But with less "like" and "I mean" interspersed.

The lesson is obviously that Bill Roper is full of shit and cannot be trusted with money.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Amaron
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2020


Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 05:55:58 PM

1) The Blizzard Way only works at Blizzard and then screws up developers who leave but try to use the same method.

That makes it sound like Blizzard ruined them or something.   I get the feeling it's more like for every Tigole blizzard has a couple leashes on hand.
lamaros
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8021


Reply #13 on: February 08, 2011, 07:12:32 PM

All I got from it was "you know it was hard because we weren't at Blizzard and didn't have sensible people holding our hands and bailing us out when we got stuck. We were the bosses, and that responsibility was too much."
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449

Badge Whore


Reply #14 on: February 08, 2011, 07:46:21 PM

Creative People make poor Businessmen.  News at 11.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
MournelitheCalix
Terracotta Army
Posts: 967


Reply #15 on: February 08, 2011, 08:42:35 PM

I actually liked most of Hellgate London, but really early on it was obvious that the game wasn't focused well at all.  From gameplay that wasn't realistic, to a post apocalytpic world that for no reason still had the lights on in the dark tunnels, to really dumb decisions like not even attempting to make some static realistic environments for fameous buildings and placing epic fights in them.  This is only to name two things that I immediately noticed.  I am not a developer and I have never had to coordinate a large scale software development project but to me this points to a problem with leadership and I don't see Bill actually taking the responsibility for that as I believe he should have.  I think the fault was his inadequate performance focusing his team.

My .02$ for what it is worth.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 08:44:25 PM by MournelitheCalix »

Born too late to explore the new world.
Born too early to explore the universe.
Born just in time to see liberty die.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #16 on: February 08, 2011, 08:48:36 PM

This is up there with Deus Ex 2 as one of the most depressing releases in my life as a gamer.
MournelitheCalix
Terracotta Army
Posts: 967


Reply #17 on: February 08, 2011, 08:56:54 PM

This is up there with Deus Ex 2 as one of the most depressing releases in my life as a gamer.

Deus Ex 2 was a brutal letdown.  This is why I am not allowing myself to even be hopeful toward the next offering of Deus Ex.

Born too late to explore the new world.
Born too early to explore the universe.
Born just in time to see liberty die.
Trouble
Terracotta Army
Posts: 689


Reply #18 on: February 09, 2011, 12:46:29 AM

I still sometimes look at the hellgate box sitting on my shelf and wonder what could've been.  It felt really close to being pretty damned awesome, and I continued to play it despite its bugs until they announced they were ceasing development and would eventually shut down.

I won't rehash it all again I suppose, but I wish they hadn't fucked it up.

EDIT:

Quote
BR: Yeah. Yeah. I think, if we would have had another six months, maybe things would have been different.
Actually, he learned nothing at all as it turns out.

Agree. All I could think in my head was "how many times did he say that exact same phrase prior to launch with a slightly different number?". Obviously time is important, but at what point do you recognize you started from a bad idea, or poor management, or a lack of the correct experience, or whatever it is. He said a lot of things and owned a lot of mistakes. But he didn't really say the magic phrase "we didn't have the correct set of experience and abilities to succeed". That is the basic truth. They died from within.

Not that I can claim success in the field, but I do know some success in general and I know plenty of failure. The main component to success is failing a lot and figuring out which part, deep deep down in the bottom of your cockels, was broken and acknowledging there was no chance to succeed from the beginning. He acknowledges some mistakes, but spends a lot of time not acknowledging some of the underlying leadership failures. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that's the gist I get. A lesson I've learned is focusing on core competencies (yeah yeah bullshit corporate words). His experience was in game design, production, development, whatever else. Seemingly not in business management, large project management, marketing, product monetization, etc. He said all of those things, but in the words of "we/I did it wrong this time, but learned" instead of "I learned not to try and do things I'm not good at". I'm not saying he should have been those things, just the lesson learned was to fine the people who are good at those while doing what he's good at.


Clarification if he ever lands he in person: I have now knowledge or care of you personally so none of it is a jab. I just have a long history of having unsaid things yell at my brain louder than the things that are said in this type of context (post mortem in essence).


This probably afflicts all sorts of fields, but it just seems a chronic plague is "oh I'm good at making games, I would make a great game company". People have aspirations and ideas in these creative sectors and want to build them and see them through. But the reality is that those corporate drones often serve a useful purpose when they're not too busy going overboard raping the customers in all holes. Good ones push businesses, even creative ones like game design, towards a profitable and sustainable direction. It's a skillset few have. Great game design is a skill few have. Excellent artistic sense and production ability is an ability few have. Etcetera and my point is obviously already made. Recognizing your excellence and limits, then tapping the right people for their skill sets is are skill could maybe be a lot more widespread. Or maybe that's why there's so few good managers.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 01:06:43 AM by Trouble »
Jeff Kelly
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6921

I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #19 on: February 09, 2011, 02:45:45 AM

The first rule of business is: Don't let the inmates run the asylum. Hellgate is exactly what happens when you don't heed this advice.

Project management is risk management first.

I have to deal with a lot of this in my line of work as well. In R&D 80% of all projects fail, the remaining 20% have to be profitable to keep your business going. The high failure rate is not because of incompetent management but because a project is basically a calculated risk that you take based on incomplete information.

If you knew exactly that it will work, how long it takes to finish it and how much it costs then it wouldn't be a project so the biggest part of project management is to collect enough data and gather as much info as you can to see if it's actually viable. After a project has been green lit project management's responsibility is not only to finish the project but more importantly to assess the risks and tackle the highest risk issues first so that you can decide early if you should continue or shut it down.

It's your responsibility as lead to NOT keep projects going indefinitely but to actually shut them down as soon as it becomes clear that they're not viable and to structure the project so that I can make that kind of decision as soon as possible without spending all of my cash on it.

This is why 80% of the PM work is done prior to the actual start and in the first six months. The longer a project runs the harder and more costly it is to change direction or correct critical mistakes.

Also you should never base a project idea on whether it's cool to do, a common mistake for management staff that got promoted from rank and file (engineers and scientists in R&D, creative people in game development). Even though it might be cool to develop my own 3D engine for a new game, licensing an existing engine and putting the effort into the actual game itself makes more business sense. (YMMV as always).

You have no idea how much money is spent on reinventing the wheel in pet projects by people that 'always wanted to do that".

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't promote technical or creative people to management. Projects managed by business administrators also fail just for different reasons. (It basically boils down to the one side being to close to the technology and the other too detached from it).

In Hellgate London the staff made every mistake in the book. Lack of vision and direction (What kind of game do we make). lack of control and oversight ('if we had only x months more time/x amount of money more' is usually a sign of weak management) and not stopping when they realized that their idea didn't work.

If you include all overhead one man month is basically two to three times the gross salary of that team member so an additional six months is a huge investment
Ratman_tf
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3818


Reply #20 on: February 09, 2011, 03:09:35 AM

I actually liked most of Hellgate London, but really early on it was obvious that the game wasn't focused well at all.  From gameplay that wasn't realistic, to a post apocalytpic world that for no reason still had the lights on in the dark tunnels,

Wat? I doubt the average HG gamer cared about realism or wondered who kept the lights on in the steam tunnels.

Quote
to really dumb decisions like not even attempting to make some static realistic environments for fameous buildings and placing epic fights in them.

That's better. But still.

Hellgate was managed to death. That seems to be the consensus. Every game has bugs, issues, is unrealistic, has strange design decisions and asthetics. But if the managment are pissing away time and money, ain't nothing gonna save that game.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Typhon
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2493


Reply #21 on: February 09, 2011, 04:38:29 AM

I liked the game.  I think the skill trees could have been done better.  I think the pre-scrubbing characters were better. 

I think if they wanted it to be an MMO, they should have scaled the environments to your level and figured out a way to generate non-main-story missions.  I think they needed someone without their head up their ass to make a call on the business model rather than trying to do every known business model simultaneously.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10596


Reply #22 on: February 09, 2011, 05:05:39 AM

I liked the game.  I think the skill trees could have been done better.  I think the pre-scrubbing characters were better. 

I think if they wanted it to be an MMO, they should have scaled the environments to your level and figured out a way to generate non-main-story missions.  I think they needed someone without their head up their ass to make a call on the business model rather than trying to do every known business model simultaneously.

I don't know how many people stuck around very long, but I think getting a group of 5 together for "The Wild" runs was over all pretty fun.  They needed more of that kind of repeatable/boss running good loot farming options.  Unfortunately you had to get up to the mid 40s before you could do those on nightmare...

Ugh.  Anyway, like I said, I felt like it was actually fairly close to good.  The business side was clearly mismanaged, but I don't think the game was too fundamentally flawed. If they had figured out a solid business model and launched with a few solid options for boss runs, people would've caught on.

Outlawedprod
Terracotta Army
Posts: 454


Reply #23 on: February 09, 2011, 05:58:47 AM

From the article:
Quote
It's like, "Alright, here's the first huge test he had where he finished his first year. Wow, he did not do well. Okay, well, I guess we should kick him out of college and he should be a garbage man for the rest of his life, because obviously he can never be a scientist or whatever." And I think that's the sad part. It's almost throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which I think Mythos was, and I think that other products... We had learned so much. It's that kind of thing; you learn from your mistakes. And I think it is the rare, almost unique company that never makes mistakes.  Even if you look at the best filmmakers. It's like Howard the Duck, hello. There's the classic Howard the Duck things, whatever he does, but that's not like the end of their career. It's not like, "Alright, Mr. Spielberg, you're done. You're not allowed to make any more movies," right. It's just like, "Oh, wow. That was a really bad movie. Well, alright, let's see what the next thing is."

Poor guy doesn't realize that Mr. Spielberg got his shot and a company didn't go under.  In fact Mr. Spielberg did shorts, then tv episodes, then a TV movie before he directed a major hollywood film.  He didn't make Jaws first =p

Also some people consider Howard the Duck some type of cult classic.  I don't see anyone making that case for Hellgate or APB.  I kind of wish this interview asked him about APB.
Mrbloodworth
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15148


Reply #24 on: February 09, 2011, 06:03:02 AM

I really could not get into the combat in Hellgate. It was janky.

Today's How-To: Scrambling a Thread to the Point of Incoherence in Only One Post with MrBloodworth . - schild
www.mrbloodworthproductions.com  www.amuletsbymerlin.com
Jeff Kelly
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6921

I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #25 on: February 09, 2011, 06:15:28 AM

A good company lets you make mistakes because everyone acknowledges that you learn most things by experience. They just start you of with projects that are not multi-million-dollar failures if you fuck up.

Spielberg started off in 1960 and had already finished more than 20 movies as either producer, writer or director before he made Jaws. Also Spielberg isn't credited in Howard the Duck, that was Lucas.

Also while Howard the Duck is condsidered to be a really bad movie it at least has grossed enough to not be a loss. Which is the only thing the people who give you money care about anyway.

The whole paragraph summarizes the extent of Roper "not getting it". People don't give you millions of dollars to fund your personal quest fof 'learning by doing'
Typhon
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2493


Reply #26 on: February 09, 2011, 06:35:14 AM

I really have no opinion on the business end of things because I have no experience running a business.  Having contempt for someone trying (and failing) to do a job you yourself have never done seems... misguided I guess is the nicest thing I could say.

I played the game, and I think the spin in this thread that more time in the oven wouldn't have helped is wrong.

The combat wasn't as tight as it should have been, but it was diverse.  The melee classes played differently than the gun classes which played differently than the spell classes.  From a, "would more time enable us to make the combat and skill trees tighter" perspective I think the answer is yes.  I appreciated what they were trying to do and where they seemed like they were going with it.  The combat was tight enough that I was willing to overlook it.  There were times when you were able to pull something off with a melee class that were just awesome.

The only thing that significantly chaffed me were the hit-or-miss synergies between skills in the skill trees.  That needed more polish.

Edit: typed "where", meant "were"
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 06:48:30 AM by Typhon »
KallDrexx
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3510


Reply #27 on: February 09, 2011, 06:44:36 AM

If they just didn't focus so much on the MMO aspects and used that energy and money on the non-MMO parts, I think it would have been fine.  I liked the core of the game, it's the stuff piled on top that blew.
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10619


Reply #28 on: February 09, 2011, 07:02:06 AM

If they just didn't focus so much on the MMO aspects and used that energy and money on the non-MMO parts, I think it would have been fine.  I liked the core of the game, it's the stuff piled on top that blew.

That's exactly what Roper said in the interview. 
Jeff Kelly
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6921

I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #29 on: February 09, 2011, 07:22:25 AM

I really have no opinion on the business end of things because I have no experience running a business.  Having contempt for someone trying (and failing) to do a job you yourself have never done seems... misguided I guess is the nicest thing I could say.

It's not the trying and failing part. The potential for failure is an integral part of such high risk projects. I take issue with the non-chalance with which that part was handled. Getting in the unfortunate situation to handle projects with a six figure budget is easy. Four or Five people, a year and a half of development time and it will be a feat to stay below $1,000,000.

Quote
I played the game, and I think the spin in this thread that more time in the oven wouldn't have helped is wrong.

At some point 'just another six months' becomes 'will never recover the investment'. The nature of business is that you always have to work with limited resources: time, budget, personnel at some point any one of those resources or the patience of the people providing the resource runs out.

You should be either finished or have shut down the project before this becomes an issue. Only a select few development studios can afford a "when it's done" attitude. One man month in that line of business easily reaches $10.000 or more, so with a team of ten maybe fifteen people and 'another six months' you burn close to a million dollars.

Look at the credits of a high profile title and imagine what a single month of development costs.

'If we had just another six months' is proof of a total misconception about how such projects should be handled and are handled by successful companies and shrugging off the total loss of a multi-million-dollar investment with 'well we have learned something' is just cold.

Most studios aim to have a playable prototype as soon as possible to get to a shippable version as fas as they can. This makes the decision of continuing or shutting down easy and moves that point closer to project start, then it's just an issue of getting all of the content in the release or deciding what to cut.
KallDrexx
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3510


Reply #30 on: February 09, 2011, 07:33:20 AM

If they just didn't focus so much on the MMO aspects and used that energy and money on the non-MMO parts, I think it would have been fine.  I liked the core of the game, it's the stuff piled on top that blew.
That's exactly what Roper said in the interview. 

Yeah I know, I just wanted to reiterate that point because people seem to be focusing too hard on the "haha he claims he only needed 6 months, that's what they all say" and seem to dismiss the fact that once they got investment for an MMO, they could not just take away the MMO aspects due to contractual obligations.
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10619


Reply #31 on: February 09, 2011, 07:36:05 AM

They were doomed from the start because of bad decisions that they didn't know would effect them later.  It's always best to start with the end in mind.
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #32 on: February 09, 2011, 09:39:54 AM

What 'focus on the MMO parts' are you people talking about?

The only MMO aspect of this game was the optional capability to see other players in the lobby.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
KallDrexx
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3510


Reply #33 on: February 09, 2011, 09:46:06 AM

What 'focus on the MMO parts' are you people talking about?

The only MMO aspect of this game was the optional capability to see other players in the lobby.

There are a lot of other design decisions that were heavily influenced on having a F2P + sub MMO model.  Besides the additional design effort, the engineering effort to make a game an MMO rather than just provide LAN support is staggering, and prevents their engineering teams from focusing on other aspects more gameplay related (as well as increasing the complexity and lowering resources available to find and fix bugs).
Amaron
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2020


Reply #34 on: February 09, 2011, 08:04:43 PM

Hellgate had failure game design on some of it's most basic levels. 

1) Build a delicious action combat game with diablo style loot then make grouping up and just jointly killing some crap really difficult.
2) Segregating the world into tons of quests and sub area's that make it even more difficult to group since everyone's at a different spot.
3) Bunch of stuff that single player people cared about that I can't remember.
4) Loot game without boss runs  Ohhhhh, I see..

Some of that is just my opinion of course.  Things like #1 were just blanket failure that directly lowered the profitability of the game flat out though.   A LFG interface is basic functionality that should of been in even before alpha.
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  Topic: "Bill Roper: Reflections on Hellgate"  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC