Treyarch to gamers: STFU u h8ers

[Azazel]

Heh, actual headache?

Yeah. For serious.

I've got no issues with Far Cry 1 or Max Payne 1 though.

[Paelos]

I'm thinking that the reason for the PC going down like a €5 whore is probably due to their DRM.

I agree, but they won't make that connection.

[tgr]

I'm thinking that the reason for the PC going down like a €5 whore is probably due to their DRM.

I agree, but they won't make that connection.

I've sent them emails of at least 5 games I've refused to buy because of their DRM, and questions of a few others. It's definitely not like we're all just silently walking away with our wallets or moving over to the consoles.

Actually, I wonder why the wii went so much up compared to the 360, PS3 and PC, and what that signifies...

[Paelos]

Considering the development cycles, things like % of sales by medium are totally dependent on when their bigger games come out. I don't know that it's the most accurate predictor of development for the future unless you take a look at a five year trend of those percentages on a year-by-year basis with some correlation to their best sellers for those years.

[AutomaticZen]

Oblivion is where the pain starts setting in for me.

Really? So even farcry 1 isn't playable for you?

Sorry.  Got my Elder Scrolls mixed up.  Morrowind.  2002 video.

Actually, I wonder why the wii went so much up compared to the 360, PS3 and PC, and what that signifies...

Dance games.  From the same link:

An outstanding performance  from dance titles, with  Just Dance, Just Dance 2, Just Dance Kids, Michael Jackson: The Experience, and Dance on Broadway™ reaching an aggregate of more than 10.5 million sell-in units during the quarter.

[Merusk]

Actually, I wonder why the wii went so much up compared to the 360, PS3 and PC, and what that signifies...

That they're the only ones taking the platform with a little bit of seriousness.  Ubisoft is as guilty of shoveling shit games out as EA and Activision (whose Wii titles are primarily shitty movie rips or downsized versions of their big titles like Rock Band and CoD) but Ubi actually has developed some games that are worth playing on it, like the Raving Rabbids series.   Plus, the games not aimed at teenagers and Man-Children like the Just Dance series and the Michael Jackson experience seem to be doing ok for them.  (Both of which had games out in Q3)

I was specifically not asking what the "average gamers" keep demanding, because I think we've established pretty extensively that what I think makes for a great game, and what "most gamers" these days seem to think makes for a great game, are vastly different.

Which is why your arguments weren't making any sense.  See, it's not about what we as individuals -and certainly not "old" folks (demographically speaking) like those on this website - like, want or complain about.  It's what the market is about and they're younger, want more flash and are where things are focused.  Leading back to why I said there's not a graphics problem in consoles that exists in PC games.

A 360 game is a 360 game for ever and ever, never mind it's stuck at that 2005 point until the next hardware generation.  The expectations are what they are.  A PC game with 2005 graphics and no better than that is going to be ridiculed in the market.  PC gamers are snobs that cause lots of problems due to differing hardware and cost more to cater to.  Is it a wonder we're becoming a minority?

[Kageru]

Actually, I wonder why the wii went so much up compared to the 360, PS3 and PC, and what that signifies...

Their big hits were some Wii specific dance games according to one article I read. It also had figures for the last 4 halves and it made it fairly obvious market share contribution is very volatile depending on their products and which ones are hits. It's not like a business that is servicing an ongoing demand with a stable product.

[Margalis]

Each Just Dance game sells like 2 million units.

[tgr]

Which is why your arguments weren't making any sense.  See, it's not about what we as individuals -and certainly not "old" folks (demographically speaking) like those on this website - like, want or complain about.  It's what the market is about and they're younger, want more flash and are where things are focused.

I think we're arguing about 2 different things. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're arguing that I'm not understanding how the market is today, whereas I'm arguing that this focus on more and more graphics isn't as necessary as lots of today's gamers are making it out to be, as I think we're past the age where huge strides are made, and we're into minor increments in quality for diminishing returns. I also think that if you were to implement ME2 in daikatana's engine, and daikatana in ME2's engine, ME2 would still be the best game, and daikatana would still be shit. It would just look less like a turd and it'd cost more to produce.

I'm not disagreeing with you about what the realities of the market is today, in fact it's a large part of what I keep complaining about (and people keep telling me I'm wrong, games are better than they ever were, etc etc etc). Fact of the matter is that the gaming industry is increasingly telling PC gamers to get to the back of the bus, with bad console ports restrictive DRM, pre-order "bonuses" (which I can't take advantage of because I refuse to buy games with online activation/always online DRM, and I've seen too many games say nothing about DRM on steam until up to a week or so after it's been released), 1-6 months delay upon release, etc etc etc... and this is if they even release it for the PC at all.

Azazel said once that I was limiting myself to PC games only, and thus missing out on games which came out on consoles. This is true to a certain extent, for a few reasons. Chief amongst which is the fact that I just don't pay attention to console games because I keep getting burned by games like the force unleashed, but also because I have to swap out one of my monitors for use with the 360, so it's a bit of a faff. It's just so much more convenient when it's readily available on steam. vOv

Leading back to why I said there's not a graphics problem in consoles that exists inPC games.

A 360 game is a 360 game for ever and ever, never mind it's stuck at that 2005 point until the next hardware generation.  The expectations are what they are.  A PC game with 2005 graphics and no better than that is going to be ridiculed in the market.

Did you look at the comparison between PS3, 360 and PC in ME2? Have you compared that ME2 to Saints Row? What do you think would happen to Saints Row and if it was released today, with the same graphics?

I'm pretty certain you'll find that console gamers would go "what? saints row? why? they've released saints row 2!" (as if that automatically makes #1 invalid/a bad game) or "ew god no, not with those graphics" just because the game is more than 6 months old.

PC gamers are snobs that cause lots of problems due to differing hardware and cost more to cater to.  Is it a wonder we're becoming a minority?

What makes PC gamers snobs? I'm curious, because from what I've heard from the guys I game with on the PC, gameplay, realism and good game mechanics usually trump graphics, especially when the graphics are past a certain level. Better graphics are of course always welcome and we would probably choose the prettiest game if given the choice between two games which were identical except for their graphics (except, of course, if the graphics were so hardcore they lagged the machine down), but we don't choose the prettier game if the uglier game is the better game, mechanics-wise. If that makes us snobs, then yes, me and my friends are certainly snobs. I can't speak for the rest of the PC gamers.

As to the minority bit, yes, we are, and no, it isn't. We've gradually been marginalized the last few years by major publishers such as EA, Ubisoft etc, and it got a lot worse 2-3 years ago when they began this online authentication crap (at least for me, as they stepped over a line I refuse to cross). I'm also pretty certain it has comparatively little to do with "differing hardware", "cost more to cater to" or even "piracy" (as the 360 has probably just as much piracy going on, even if I can't be arsed to find the numbers to back that assumption up), and much more to do with "hey, look, console gamers are willing to buy games at a higher price and more often than PC gamers. Let's make moneyhats".

[Ingmar]

I'm thinking that the reason for the PC going down like a €5 whore is probably due to their DRM.

I'm thinking DRM is your pet issue and you see it lurking everywhere, just out of the corner of your eye. Granted, Ubi's is pretty egregious. I don't think the average PC gamer cares deeply about DRM, though.

[Paelos]

I'm thinking that the reason for the PC going down like a €5 whore is probably due to their DRM.

I'm thinking DRM is your pet issue and you see it lurking everywhere, just out of the corner of your eye. Granted, Ubi's is pretty egregious. I don't think the average PC gamer cares deeply about DRM, though.

The regular "Hey get this account so we can check your registry" shit? No. Dragon Age had that stuff and it never bothered me. UBI's is a whole new level of stupid. The TAGES stuff was beyond  when they were already running it through Steam. What, I'm hacking Steam now?!? Better double that shit up!

I guarantee you the average gamer cared about UBI's DRM, not DRM in general. I consider myself pretty average in my spending and I refused to buy Settlers because of that shit. First time that's happened since I got burned by the Anno thing where I couldn't play my game for 6 months.

[Ingmar]

I'm not buying Ubi games because of their particular intrusive DRM either. Maybe this is elitist of me or something, but I don't think people like us who stay informed, participate in gaming forums, etc., really represent the average PC gamer.

[tgr]

I'm thinking that the reason for the PC going down like a €5 whore is probably due to their DRM.

I'm thinking DRM is your pet issue and you see it lurking everywhere, just out of the corner of your eye. Granted, Ubi's is pretty egregious.

It's one of two pet issues, and it has been getting into games I really weren't expecting it to get into. I have almost gotten burnt by a few games not saying anything about DRM on the steam page until 1 week after they were launched, so I do kind of see it lurking everywhere.

To be honest, though, activation-based DRM isn't the worst DRM in the world, at least it only requires you to be online when you install the game (like steam, except with steam it's intrinsic; no inet, no download). Account-based DRM is more :effort: though, I hate having accounts all over the place. Fuck checking every time you start a game and fuck always-on DRM though. That is a particular level of stupid, and that surely has to have an effect on people's opinion of at least UBI and EA.

Having said that, a cousin of mine is very "meh, whatever, I'm not noticing anything right now" about it, and I used to think he and I were of one mind when it comes to most things. Apparently not this.

But anyway, I see now that that sentence of mine which you quoted is just plain wrong. What I meant to say there was "for their PC share going down like a...". I'm assuming that the PC gaming isn't going down as such, it's just shifting over to smaller developers.

[TheWalrus]

What makes PC gamers snobs? I'm curious, because from what I've heard from the guys I game with on the PC, gameplay, realism and good game mechanics usually trump graphics, especially when the graphics are past a certain level. Better graphics are of course always welcome and we would probably choose the prettiest game if given the choice between two games which were identical except for their graphics (except, of course, if the graphics were so hardcore they lagged the machine down), but we don't choose the prettier game if the uglier game is the better game, mechanics-wise. If that makes us snobs, then yes, me and my friends are certainly snobs. I can't speak for the rest of the PC gamers.

Exactly. Plants VS. Zombies and Magicka. Both speak to this and I think show that some companies get that fun doesn't have to have a kerbillion buttons and shiny avatars.

[Kageru]

Ubi's retarded DRM definitely cost them sales. It cut over the "I don't really notice" barrier.

Both platforms have something to offer. The PC is chaotic but open so it's good for experimentation but has no champion or unifying force. The Consoles are proprietary from the top down so they do have an owner and champion who'll fight for big budget exclusives. The audience differs somewhat too, and what suits the ergonomics of the game environment better.

[tgr]

Re: importance of the PC gaming market:

NVidia and Microsoft leave the PC gaming alliance.

BTW: Both NVidia and Microsoft have been founding members.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/microsoft-pc-gaming-is-not-dead%E2%80%9D/

Speaker Kev Gee explained at the talk that Microsoft have been using Steam to survey users and learn about their hardware, and have come to the conclusion that the figures clearly show that: “PC gaming is alive, well, vibrant and in good health. PC gaming is not dead.” He explained that the PC games market has seen a 3% increase in growth at retail, which demonstrates the demand for boxed copes of PC games is rising, proving that interest in the platform is alive and well.

They left the PC gaming alliance, but the PC is doing fine, really!

[Rishathra]

The PC Gaming Alliance was kind of a dumb, useless thing from the get go, so leaving it just makes sense, and doesn't really reflect on the state of PC gaming as a whole.

[Kageru]

"He explained that the PC games market has seen a 3% increase in growth at retail"

Well duh, PC games are nearly non-existent at retail here. Any future the market has is going to be online sales (eg. Play-asia!) or distribution (mainly steam).