Salem: an F2P permadeath colonization MMORPG from Paradox

[Yoru]

Bit of digging. The people responsible for this are those developers working on Haven and Hearth. A very cool 2D sandbox game. As confirmed here.

There is even a screenshot:

Is... is the little settler on the left examining the little settler on the right's manhood? Who knew the Puritans were so progressively-minded!

[rk47]

 

Expectations dashed with one screenshot.

[Khaldun]

What happens when you cross gay gnomes with Puritans? Now we know.

But le sigh. You can have a MMO with permadeath, but only if:
a) levelling to cap and other character development is ultrafast, the whole game is essentially 'endgame', and tools for social cooperation, etc., are very strongly developed
b) if character development doesn't matter and it's really all about what happens to the world itself.

Game where the whole point is progressive development of character abilities or resources? Permadeath = forget about it.

Plus the dev statements have a vague Dawn-ish whiff about them to me--fetuspults seem just around the corner.

[tazelbain]

What's the point of permadeath if nothing substantial is lost?

[Mrbloodworth]

I would really take that screen shot as pre-work and highly subject to change.

What's the point of permadeath if nothing substantial is lost?

Does it "hurt" to start a level from the beginning in single player games?

[Sky]

I would really take that screen shot as pre-work and highly subject to change.

It's so far from anything remotely appealing, if they're using that as their testbed graphics it's a pretty good sign the final design will be awful. Mobile poo would be more attractive.

[Soulflame]

It hurts to start from level one if you can be permanently killed by players at max.

[Slyfeind]

I'm starting to think there needs to be a dedicated gank squad to teach these people the error of their ways.  We can have a bat signal and everything!

SA...?

[Stormwaltz]

The Escapist, of all places, has a four-page preview with more information than I've seen anywhere else.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/previews/8591-Preview-Watch-Your-Back-in-Salem

It's hard to encapsulate exactly what makes this game from two Swedish college students so compelling in a pithy statement, because it's an amalgam of so many different and fascinating ideas. Here's a quick rundown of some of the ideas in the game:

    * When you die in Salem, you stay dead.
    * It takes a long time to make stuff, which is shortened by your tools and how many friends you have helping you.
    * Instead of HP or Energy, your status is determined by how much of the four "humors" or bodily fluids you possess: Blood, Phlegm, Yellow Bile and Black Bile
    * Killing another player, or committing any other crime such as vandalism or stealing, produces a "scent," which can be tracked by a player with the ranging skill
    * If someone wants revenge and tracks you, they can summon you even while you're offline and kill you. (See line item #1)
    * You level by eating and drinking.
    * In places of civilization, the area is full of light. As you move into the wilderness, it gets darker and more mystical enemies will show up.
    * Building certain structures like churches will increase civilization, i.e. make the area brighter.
    * Practicing witchcraft (placing curses, etc.) will produce its own "scent" which can only be detected by those with the correct skill.

Emphasis mine.

[Paelos]

Yeah that's a good idea. Have players log into characters that are dead because they got murdered by DarthPwn at 3AM. 

[veredus]

I actually do like that idea. Don't want to be killed while logged out don't steal  shit. Still not going to play this though.

[Lantyssa]

So does killing someone whom you tracked because they killed someone produce a scent to track?

[Khaldun]

Yeah, there's a zillion dollar question. But as a player-enforcement mechanism, it's not a bad one. It's kind of like the theoretical idea of the scout class in Shadowbane: allow theft but empower a class of anti-thieves. Here, allow permadeath but make the potential consequences for permadeath super-high because the permadeath avengers can kill you easy, and any time.

What this certainly would lead to, though, is levelling kamikazes: create characters who's only purpose is to kill and then be killed. Unless there's a huge benefit that long-term characters accrue such that it would be nearly impossible for someone to be killed by someone who hadn't been around as long as they have...

[Mrbloodworth]

So does killing someone whom you tracked because they killed someone produce a scent to track?

Guess no one read the article? Yes, yes it does.

[Khaldun]

Seriously? That's a bad idea. That means the first killing that you're trying to make costly leads to an endless series of costly decisions, which means that no one will ever track and avenge a killing, which means everyone will get killed.  Which means why bother with the scent mechanic in the first place.

[Paelos]

Seriously? That's a bad idea. That means the first killing that you're trying to make costly leads to an endless series of costly decisions, which means that no one will ever track and avenge a killing, which means everyone will get killed.  Which means why bother with the scent mechanic in the first place.

It depends on what the rewards of killing and getting away with it are. If they make it tradeable, you'll definitely have alts purely designed to be murderers who pass the gains onto peaceful mains. If the avengers level only by killing killers, then you have to incentivize people killing in the first place.

[Ghambit]

Yeah that's a good idea. Have players log into characters that are dead because they got murdered by DarthPwn at 3AM.  

EVE is similar remember, especially now with the colonization mechanic and ability to take/destroy stations.  Granted, there's no permadeath unless you're not insured.

Also, the real trick with Salem will be if/how you can lose your holdings (farm, house, etc.) not just if you die.  Since you level with food and drink, if you dont have a fuckin farm to get good food you're screwed regardless.  In this sense, they force you craft.  One can assume if you've got a high level house/farm and get killed that it wouldnt be too much of a problem to re-level.  Whereas the cutthroat pirate type who has no interest in planting potatoes will be in bad shape if he dies unless he scores grub some other way.

Back to offline murders.  What better way to combat against logoffs and off-peak mischief?  With Salem's mechanic, you cant just murder someone and then logout or try and pick on the weak at 3am 'cause the pop. is low.  You will get punished regardless, unless you've found somewhere safe to hide (you get summoned if you're offline).  Also, the scent mechanic is no different than something from a game like GTA or APB.  It's just another strat. layer to maintain, or you pay the price for neglecting to monitor it.

All in all, none of these features really work without some form of permadeath.  (shrug)  I'm more interested in production quality really, rather than game rules in this case.  I can get over the permadeath thing if it's done right.

[Lantyssa]

Say someone keep harassing you.  You're good enough to fend him off, but he keeps doing it.  You're either going to eventually kill him on accident, thus making you killable, or you're going to tire of almost dying repeatedly and finishing the deed, which makes you killable.

Also newbie characters designed to specifically harass and get people flagged, so their decked out PvP alt can yank your ass out of stasis while you're offline.

[Ghambit]

Are they even allowing alts?

[Stormwaltz]

Are they even allowing alts?

It doesn't matter if they're not. You can always create a second account.

[Rendakor]

Very good point Stormwaltz; I was about to post that disallowing alts would encourage people to get a second account, then I remembered it will be f2p.

I was actually interested in this too, until I saw that screenshot.   It looks like the GC version of Animal Crossing.

Edit: Looking at their site, at least their old game (Haven) had decent 2d art. If they had gone that route, this would be a nice, slightly more hardcore facebook game.

[Sky]

There is no doubt a scent being produced.

[Yegolev]

There is no doubt a scent being produced.

[DLRiley]

I like this game, sounds like something out of my play book of "yeah open world pvp is pretty darf darf so lets go FULL MONTY!!" The designers don't really care they really just want to encourage more pointless slaughter and e-property damage. Having to have basically a 24hr guild to protect your otherwise vulnerable afk ass is going to be fun to watch.

Oh and this is free.

[Merusk]

Yeah that's a good idea. Have players log into characters that are dead because they got murdered by DarthPwn at 3AM.  

EVE is similar remember, especially now with the colonization mechanic and ability to take/destroy stations.  Granted, there's no permadeath unless you're not insured.

The difference in EVE is the 24/7 killables are objects and stations that can be defended by other members of your corp.  If you lose your POS or Station it's because your alliance wasn't big enough or was out manuvered.    This is more akin to your ship never disappearing from the play grid, like when you have an aggression timer in EVE.

It's your character, playable only by you (in theory) so unless you and a few buddies are swapping the same character around so it's always manned, you're going to get ganked when offline.

ed:

Timing becomes important, as is what you do after you commit the crime. The scents expire after an amount of time relative to your crime, so if you can hide far away, in a cave or behind walls, then your chances of outlasting the authorities increase. Perhaps the worst thing you can do is kill someone and log off, because anyone who has the scent can summon your avatar and kill you without you even knowing. At least, if you're online in the world of Salem, the tracker must find your location manually.

So it looks like if you're online you can't be summoned.  Meaning char-swapping or botting will be the better way to gank folks.  Combine this with their later discussions on magic, and botted/ char swapped witches will be griefer supreme.

[Kageru]

In a battle between automated systems to control griefing and a sizable number of people willing to put a lot of time into causing tears my money is on the humans. I mean what sort of player base do they believe they'll attract with perma-death?

The difference in Eve is that things have timers. Attacks while off-line give you one or more known times to gather every friend you can find. Of course the other part is that the objects have obscene amounts of hitpoints (to stop drive-by attacks), waiting out timers is boring and it encourages blobbing. But that's about all you can do to fix the timezone problem. Or use the Global Alliance method and only have periods of vulnerability correlating to your prime time.

Anyway, I hope they do it, it should be fascinating watching what happens when their game mechanics meet reality.

[Stabs]

I'm rather looking forward to this.

I absolutely adored permadeath Diablo 2 and played it for years. You need a different mindset - you're basically playing your account(s) not your character and one of the best resources is trustworthy people who will support you.

The social ties and gameplay are utterly different. Basically it's gangsterism and you jostle for a decent spot in an effective gang. I imagine that slow travel and terrain will play a part - if we build our player stronghold on top of a mountain and patrol the foothills it may be hard to gank our smiths.

I just hope they don't do what some of the other hardcore games have done and have a skill system that rewards people for leaving their PCs on 24/7 with a macro running. I saw people botting for skill ups in Galaxies and I hated it then and have hated it every time it's popped up since. It's the reason I never tried Darkfall. I'm too uncomfortable with the notion of it as cheating to do it and too competitive to tolerate being out-classed because I don't do it.

[Typhon]

"Perma-death" maybe isn't exactly perma-death.  Brief article on Blues that says that there will be 'descendants'.  Read the very brief note here.

Still seems like death is supposed to be more of a hit then most games.

[Ghambit]

I shall harp on the 'alt' thing again:
What's to stop them from allowing only one account per IP/MAC?  Sure, you may have some folk who are smart enough to proxy or game on a 2nd machine with another billing option, but is it enough of a percentage to gimp the whole game?

To take it further, they could get fairly strict on making an account in the 1st place.  You'd need valid billing, name, address, etc.  Even to the point of mailing activation keys and/or using telepresence to verify accounts.        No seriously.  They could even incorporate it into the game if they had to.  Like a required verifiation quest chain that must be completed within 2 weeks of installation or your toon dies.

[Lantyssa]

What's to stop them from allowing only one account per IP/MAC?  Sure, you may have some folk who are smart enough to proxy or game on a 2nd machine with another billing option, but is it enough of a percentage to gimp the whole game?

It takes a handful of people to ruin the play of hundreds.  It's what griefers do.

It's a f2p game.  Asking for billing info is stupid.  Everything else can be faked as needed.

To think history and internet player behavior will suddenly change because you'd like to see a game succeed is naive at best.  This will be a rousing good failure.

[Merusk]

Yeah, IIRC Raph said the losses of thousands of accounts in the UO days was narrowed down to only a dozen or so folks.

[Soulflame]

I recall him saying that 2% of the accounts were responsible for the majority of lost accounts.

Which considering the size of the original UO playerbase, probably isn't terribly far off from what you said.

[CharlieMopps]

Permadeath is news?

Cuse uh, there are sandboxes with permadeath already. I can think of one off hand.


EDIT: After watching the interview, this will end well. 

Thanks for mentioning the interview... I would have never watched it and completely missed that self masturbating train wreck.

[tmp]

A year has passed, so some progress update:

The release date is now Q3 2012

[Phred]

I shall harp on the 'alt' thing again:
What's to stop them from allowing only one account per IP/MAC?  Sure, you may have some folk who are smart enough to proxy or game on a 2nd machine with another billing option, but is it enough of a percentage to gimp the whole game?

To take it further, they could get fairly strict on making an account in the 1st place.  You'd need valid billing, name, address, etc.  Even to the point of mailing activation keys and/or using telepresence to verify accounts.        No seriously.  They could even incorporate it into the game if they had to.  Like a required verifiation quest chain that must be completed within 2 weeks of installation or your toon dies.

For sure. Or like they could have someone go to the street address and verify people are real.