LA Noir

[Ingmar]

Possibly, but I was clarifying for Engels in any case.

[Amarr HM]

At last they put a good Irish actor to play an Irish character in a game & not the usual drunken Leprechaun (Police Chief). The acting and dialogue are good and the facial expressions really work well. Does feel like an interactive movie but that's about all it has going for it so far.

As people have been saying the city feels a bit flat and dull, don't find myself wanting to explore like I did in RDR. The physics aren't great, oh hey I just bounced a two ton vehicle off the top of a wooden fence. I would have liked to have access to more/control of music while driving & why can't I choose what car to run a mission in? Free roam should be between every mission like GTA, not accessed from main menu. It lacks the spirit of RDR so difficult to overlook the flaws. Definitely not a 9/10, 7.5 would be right.

[Sky]

I do have to admit that with a likely steam release (and sale at some point), the fiancee does want to sit in on this, and that's rare. So I'll probably end up with it at some point. TV ads, working wonders on non-gamers who don't buy gift games.

[Hawkbit]

I might do this on PC once it has a complete package with all the DLC cases.  On sale.  If I'm bored. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Picked this up yesterday, Completely blown away! What an excellent refreshing title, quite a game changer. I hope to see more from this. Really enjoy seeing so many well known faces in it as well.

[Jobu]

Stumbled upon this article about the stresses and personal/professional drama of LA Noire's development. Sad to hear.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/117/1179020p1.html

[HaemishM]

Team Bondi's studio head (McCarthy) seems like a real world class dick with the typical rock star ego bullshit that makes working in the games industry a continual kick in the balls. Fuck him in his tiny earhole.

[UnSub]

You mean Brendan McNamara?

In Australia there are very few gaming projects and the industry maintains itself on work-for-hire projects. Or did, until the exchange rate helped make it less cost effective for US publishers. However, there are game design schools / courses that pump out eager young things who want to build games and the idea of working on a major title would sound fantastic to them. Grist for the mill for projects such as LA Noire.

The alternative is either indie game design and / or apps work.

It's a more limited dev market than the US, which allows poor working conditions to dominate because there is nowhere else to go if you want to stay in game design at a professional company.

When Team Bondi closes as a studio (or relocates, or whatever) they'll complain it was because there was a lack of government incentives (read: money) to offset the development costs, not the mismanagement claimed by Team Bondi staff.

[HaemishM]

You mean Brendan McNamara?

That's the penis wrinkle in question.

When Team Bondi closes as a studio (or relocates, or whatever) they'll complain it was because there was a lack of government incentives (read: money) to offset the development costs, not the mismanagement claimed by Team Bondi staff.

He actually says as much in the article. What a colossal tool.

[UnSub]

Heh, it makes GameSpot's very friendly recap of LA Noire's development take on a different light:

"We found a lot of skill sets. The big related industry is animation, so we found a lot of people with that skill set we had to re-skill. It wasn't the usual situation where you have a big development community you can pull experienced resources out of and build the team quickly. In a lot of ways, we had to become kind of a university and train people up on what it was to make games," says Hirani.

As the tech team discovered while attempting to build out the internal workings of the game, the limited number of local developers with large-budget game experience forced Team Bondi to seek out fresh blood.

"We have a good relationship with the [local] colleges and TAFEs, and we would go along and handpick who we thought were the top graduates. So we really tried to get in at the foundations. It's rare that a AAA game gets made in Australia, but the majority of people [on the team] are Australian," explains Chan.

Also, Team Bondi is likely to shift regardless of LA Noire's sales because it the $AU / $US exchange rate makes another full title economically problematic.

[Jeff Kelly]

I've read the article and I'm absolutely flabbergasted.

That guy has absofuckinglutely no clue whatsoever how to run a company. In any other company a 10% turnover rate would be considered to be a huge red flag yet they had turnover of hundreds of people most of which didn't even last 6 months and he doesn't even realize that this is a fucking disaster.

With that amount of turnover probably half of those seven years are just overhead, he basically burned tens of millions of dollars of Sony and Rockstar money on his incompetence.

Nearly 100% turnover.
"Informal" hierarchy (usually euphemism for 'no hierarchy at all').
Huge amounts of development overhead due to employee atrition
Eternal overtime and crunch time

and a Studio head with no trust in his leads who is a huge control freak

Sony or Rockstar shouldn't have cancelled the project they just should have fired his ass and hired somebody who is not a huge psycho and douchebag.

[Sky]

And yet he shipped a game that got good review, sold well and he made a pile of money.

[Mrbloodworth]

And could very well change story telling in games.

[Jeff Kelly]

And yet he shipped a game that got good review, sold well and he made a pile of money.

Yeah, when Rockstar stepped in and basically rescued the whole project while spending insane numbers on promotion. I mean they even ran commercials for the game over here. We never get ANY commercials for games on national television except LA Noir

I'd like to see the revenue vs. capital invested numbers I assume that they basically need a huge success to offset all of the wasteful spending.

If it were a US based game studio he'd basically not been able to finish it because everybody would have walked out on him long ago.

He was lucky it turned out to be a successful game while basically doing everything wrong that you'd learn in management 101.

[Jeff Kelly]

Also would the game have sold as well or even have reviewed as well if it was any other publisher except Rockstar that picked it up?

[LK]

I couldn't finish. McNarma's responses were that bad.

Bloodworth, you're one of those art at any cost types, I guess?

Rockstar may have invested so much in the game in order to see the development of that face capturing tech and other things that may benefit their GTA games. LA Noire may have been a big R&D opportunity. McNarma kills the studio and becomes the bad guy, Rockstar gets the tech.

[Jeff Kelly]

If he were at my company and he'd report that attrition numbers I'd report him in and if he offered me the kind of answers he did on this interview I'd fire his ass.

[Mrbloodworth]

Bloodworth, you're one of those art at any cost types, I guess?

Not sure what you mean. My comments are about the finished product. I'm not personally invested in painting some guy one way or the other.

[HaemishM]

Given the choice, would YOU work for him based on the questions in that interview?

[Mrbloodworth]

Nope. Not unless it was my only option. Some times you don't find out about a person till you work with them though.

[HaemishM]

Good thing he did that interview then isn't it? 

[Ingmar]

And could very well change story telling in games.

I enjoyed the game but it isn't changing anything except upping the creepy factor in animation.

[Mrbloodworth]

And could very well change story telling in games.

I enjoyed the game but it isn't changing anything except upping the creepy factor in animation.

Actual actors performances, and relying on the player behind the controls, not some arbitrary skill, is not likely to change story telling? Its leaps and bounds ahead of anything else in one of the most difficult areas to animate, and convey emotion in. The face.

I disagree. If the underlying tech is feasible to be used in other games, I foresee big things as it gets more refined. Could you imagine this tech being used in the next elder scrolls?

[Ingmar]

I think it might tighten or sharpen up story telling but I don't think it will fundamentally change it, no. And there's also a lot to be said against hyper-realistic rendering of people from both an uncanny valley standpoint and for some games from an artistic standpoint.

[KallDrexx]

 

Actual actors performances, and relying on the player behind the controls, not some arbitrary skill, is not likely to change story telling? Its leaps and bounds ahead of anything else in one of the most difficult areas to animate, and convey emotion in. The face.

I disagree. If the underlying tech is feasible to be used in other games, I foresee big things as it gets more refined. Could you imagine this tech being used in the next elder scrolls?

The tech requires a massive amount of memory, so much so that it was mentioned somewhere they were limited on how much non-facial animations they could do in the engine.

It also requires quite a lot of retraining.  On the other hand, Uncharted 1 and 2 used real actors, had good writers and good animators (who didn't have to be retrained) and did an amazing job (imho at least) at story telling, both in and out of cutscenes.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah, Uncharted used a like system, but more of a Rotoscoping system. My point being, this is just the start for this kind of collection and display. Uncharted was using systems that have had years to develop, thats why by the time it was used, it translates so well.

Breaking the face problem is a huge step in conveying emotion, I am excited by the possibilities.

[Ingmar]

When I'll be impressed is when they can do it effectively with stylized characters rather than just the modern version of FMV.

[HaemishM]

Could you imagine this tech being used in the next elder scrolls?

I want to have to watch the ugliest 3d rendered faces on the planet and try to figure out if the character is lying or having a stroke? The Elder Scrolls games are not the ones to hold up as paragons of face tech. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Thats not quite what I was getting at, lol. 

[Sky]

Be nice to see it in the next Mass Effect trilogy :)

But I thought the face tech from Mafia was going to push stuff forward but it didn't really catch on.

[LK]

Thats not quite what I was getting at, lol. 

What he's getting at is that he wants story-driven heavily-scripted narrative "games" to be able to better portray the actors that are, what I assume, critical to the enjoyment of a story-driven heavily-scripted narrative "game".

With that laser-like focus on one small aspect of a game, I can see how it's extremely important that they spend incredible amounts of time and money delivering a better representation of an actor's emotions as that is what makes a good story-driven heavily-scripted narrative "game".

[HaemishM]

Frankly, I think good voice acting makes a lot more difference than plastic doll facial tic technology. Not that it isn't cool, but I don't think it's going to make as much difference for a LONG time.

[Mrbloodworth]

Mass Effect trilogy

Perhaps thats a better line to have said. Still, what I was trying to say was clear.

[UnSub]

The problem with the facial capture technology is that it requires a lot of money to do - hire actors (in LA Noire's case, non-A-list but recognisable actors), have them do several takes, possibly come back in and do some re-takes if the script is changed. Plus then there is the time to do non-verbal expressions.

Even if the cost of the tech drops, it still will be out-of-budget for all but the largest of studios. Much cheaper just to animate some polygons than get an actor in to do the same thing.

[Mrbloodworth]

The problem with the facial capture technology is that it requires a lot of money to do - hire actors (in LA Noire's case, non-A-list but recognisable actors), have them do several takes, possibly come back in and do some re-takes if the script is changed. Plus then there is the time to do non-verbal expressions.

Even if the cost of the tech drops, it still will be out-of-budget for all but the largest of studios. Much cheaper just to animate some polygons than get an actor in to do the same thing.

Is it? Facial animation by hand can take a VERY long time depending on the complexity of the rig. Rerecording 1-5 minute snippets of dialog a few times VS. what may be days if not weeks of animation is a big difference.

We would have to see some real comparisons to know.