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Khaldun
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Reply #1540 on: December 25, 2021, 02:16:01 PM

It won't come to that because it can't. It's going to be orbiting at L2. Right now I don't think we have any capability to send a manned mission to that distance and come back, though the space experts here can tell me if that's wrong.
01101010
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Reply #1541 on: December 25, 2021, 02:57:11 PM

It won't come to that because it can't. It's going to be orbiting at L2. Right now I don't think we have any capability to send a manned mission to that distance and come back, though the space experts here can tell me if that's wrong.


That's the story of the movie! It;s never been done before! Then onwards to fixing the rovers on Mars!

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
slog
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Reply #1542 on: December 25, 2021, 03:57:28 PM

For whatever reason I like to fall asleep to Space documentaries.  Lately I've been watching a channel on YouTube called Kosmo.  After watching the video below, I realized that I never really understood the scale of how big space is.  I'm more convinced than ever that their is intelligent life out there, but I'm also convinced that the Universe is just too big for us to ever find it.

https://youtu.be/B-rx-J_6lww

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Mandella
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Reply #1543 on: December 26, 2021, 06:41:08 PM

It won't come to that because it can't. It's going to be orbiting at L2. Right now I don't think we have any capability to send a manned mission to that distance and come back, though the space experts here can tell me if that's wrong.


Not a space expert, just an enthusiastic layperson, but AIUI there is more problems than just the distance and orbit (which are themselves formidable). The thing is just not built to service and fix (epoxy instead of screws, that sort of thing), and the likely modes of damage to it involve jamming and/or tearing of the tissue thin sunshade. There is just not a lot to work with, unlike Hubble.

That said, it jams up and I bet somebody is going to try to come up with something.
Abagadro
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Reply #1544 on: December 26, 2021, 09:39:07 PM

First image is back from JWT:


"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Sky
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Reply #1545 on: December 28, 2021, 08:39:55 AM

I didn't realize they were hanging it that far out. The Hubble scope taught us that it is going to need a lot of maintenance and upkeep over the years, so I'd hope they've designed additional missions into the service plan! The data should be insane coming off that thing, though. Hubble was a huge leap forward.
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Reply #1546 on: December 28, 2021, 08:51:48 AM

I didn't realize they were hanging it that far out. The Hubble scope taught us that it is going to need a lot of maintenance and upkeep over the years, so I'd hope they've designed additional missions into the service plan! The data should be insane coming off that thing, though. Hubble was a huge leap forward.

I don't think there will be any maintenance out there as it's going to be farther out than a manned spaceflight has ever gone.


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01101010
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Reply #1547 on: December 28, 2021, 08:58:44 AM

I don't think there will be any maintenance out there as it's going to be farther out than a manned spaceflight has ever gone.



I assume any repair missions would be robotic drones. At least that is the guess on reddit /r/space.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Abagadro
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Reply #1548 on: December 28, 2021, 09:02:15 AM

It's not really built to be "maintained". It doesn't have any docking parts and working on the thing without tearing the protective shield would be almost impossible. They built a refueling port in case they want to try to extent its mission beyond its planned 10 years, but that's about it.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Sky
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Reply #1549 on: December 28, 2021, 09:18:10 AM

NASA does love to set themselves up for failure.
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Reply #1550 on: December 28, 2021, 09:55:16 AM

NASA does love to set themselves up for failure.

It's certainly a high risk project.  I imagine NASA considered the risk of losing astronauts was too high, so they designed it with the idea of a shorter lifespan in mind.

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Khaldun
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Reply #1551 on: December 28, 2021, 06:50:43 PM

Jesus. No. They designed it to do science work that the Hubble can't do because of where it is. That's all that's going on here. If it couldn't do science stuff the Hubble can't do, we wouldn't be launching it.

Look, you build a space telescope and you necessarily decide to put it at L2 to do the science goals you set, you already know you don't need to design it to be serviced because you don't fucking have the capability to do that, period, end of story. It's like saying oh don't worry we'll send a manned mission to fix the little helicopter on the latest Mars mission if it doesn't fly. You goddamn can't so you don't build it with that possibility in mind.
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Reply #1552 on: December 29, 2021, 01:14:00 PM

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/12/webb-continues-to-unfold-has-enough-fuel-for-over-a-decade/

Quote
The Webb team largely credit this to the Ariane 5 launcher, which greatly exceeded the minimum requirements needed to put Webb on the correct course, and a successful first course adjustment.

The launch vehicle's performance also explains a little oddity that took place shortly after the observatory separated from the launch vehicle, when the Webb's solar panel deployed sooner than expected. It turns out that the panels could deploy whenever the telescope had reached the right orientation relative to the Sun to produce significant power. The launch vehicle did such a good job of orienting the Webb that this happened sooner than expected, leading to the rapid extension of the panels.






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Reply #1553 on: December 29, 2021, 01:40:32 PM

Jesus. No. They designed it to do science work that the Hubble can't do because of where it is. That's all that's going on here. If it couldn't do science stuff the Hubble can't do, we wouldn't be launching it.

Look, you build a space telescope and you necessarily decide to put it at L2 to do the science goals you set, you already know you don't need to design it to be serviced because you don't fucking have the capability to do that, period, end of story. It's like saying oh don't worry we'll send a manned mission to fix the little helicopter on the latest Mars mission if it doesn't fly. You goddamn can't so you don't build it with that possibility in mind.


Yes, I worded that poorly.  It's got a 10 year lifespan, and they can't reach it.

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Reply #1554 on: December 29, 2021, 02:08:20 PM

Jesus. No. They designed it to do science work that the Hubble can't do because of where it is. That's all that's going on here. If it couldn't do science stuff the Hubble can't do, we wouldn't be launching it.

Look, you build a space telescope and you necessarily decide to put it at L2 to do the science goals you set, you already know you don't need to design it to be serviced because you don't fucking have the capability to do that, period, end of story. It's like saying oh don't worry we'll send a manned mission to fix the little helicopter on the latest Mars mission if it doesn't fly. You goddamn can't so you don't build it with that possibility in mind.
Yes, I worded that poorly.  It's got a 10 year lifespan, and they can't reach it.
It can be reached (once it gets there) -- we just don't have anything available right now that could service it. But it's theoretically possible to do with robots / remote controlled apparatus assuming we're willing to throw money at the problem.

From Dr. John Mather (Nobel Laureate and James Webb Space Telescope project scientist):

https://jwst.nasa.gov/content/about/faqs/tweetChat1.html
Quote
Q: What about in-space refueling the telescope? Would it be possible to extend the mission lifespan this way? (asked by @hrissan)

A: In-space refueling of #JWST? Logically possible but difficult. It would require robots!

Also the exact lifespan is variable / unknown because it depends on how much fuel will be used. Currently it's actually below it's originally estimated fuel usage -- i.e. it could last longer than 10 years -- because the Ariane 5 rocket did such a good job of getting it into space.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/12/29/nasa-says-webbs-excess-fuel-likely-to-extend-its-lifetime-expectations/
Khaldun
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Reply #1555 on: December 29, 2021, 06:59:12 PM

The point is that to service it--even refueling--at L2 requires designing specific robotic vehicles specifically intended for that task--which introduces a whole new point of possible failure and a whole new expense. It has to be at L2 to accomplish its mission. If it works as designed, the basic point is to just squeeze every day possible out of it while it's still working.
01101010
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Reply #1556 on: December 29, 2021, 07:37:54 PM

NASA does tend to go with the low end of lifespan on most of their missions unless there is an actual end date. I mean, the Voyagers are still producing or at least somewhat able to, the Mars rovers have mostly lasted well past their predicted lifecycles. I am not faulting them for doing that... straight out of the Star Trek Chief Engineer handbook on working miracles.

So I figure JWT will last at least 10 years and by then, who knows what capabilities we will have at our disposal then. It was only 6 years ago that SpaceX landed a Falcon after take off. We have landed/crashed on asteroids. And in the last year or so we have a new space tourism industry getting established. So in 8-10 years, there could possibly be a way to service it and extend its life... but for now, if it all plays out as it was planned, there is going to be some cool shit on the internet from this pretty soon.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Morat20
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Reply #1557 on: December 30, 2021, 11:24:56 AM

NASA does love to set themselves up for failure.
The requirements for the telescope shove it out well past where it's easily serviceable.

It's got to be where it is to do the job they want it to do.

It's not some place they can get a crew. Worse yet, the sunshades -- another requirement for it to work (it needs to be really, really, REALLY COLD since it's a deep infrared telescope) are really delicate and that makes even robotic missions risky.

So they didn't make it serviceable, because doing so opens up additional points of failure as the complexity grows (oops, a screw for an access hatch was too tight. Or too lose. The vibration on launch caused significant damage to delicate components, or another panel wasn't fastened right and so the insulation had leakages causing issues with heat -- again, back to deep infrared stuff).

They did add a refueling port, because if it's already out of fuel -- if your robotic refueling package fucks up and breaks the sunshield, it's not like you lost anything. It wasn't working already.

So NASA reduced complexity as much as possible because getting to where it had to be to work was a nightmare and would require special designed robots and would be risky as hell. It's already complex and delicate as hell. Adding more would have raised the possibilities of total loss, not reduced it.
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Reply #1558 on: January 04, 2022, 11:24:23 AM

Sunshield has been deployed:

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/sunshield-successfully-deploys-on-nasa-s-next-flagship-telescope

Quote
The James Webb Space Telescope team has fully deployed the spacecraft’s 70-foot sunshield, a key milestone in preparing it for science operations.

The sunshield – about the size of a tennis court at full size – was folded to fit inside the payload area of an Arianespace Ariane 5 rocket’s nose cone prior to launch. The Webb team began remotely deploying the sunshield Dec. 28, 2021, three days after launch.
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Reply #1559 on: January 05, 2022, 10:28:15 AM

Struts and secondary mirror have been deployed.

https://twitter.com/NASAWebb/status/1478766582574813190
01101010
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Reply #1560 on: January 05, 2022, 10:51:55 AM

I know NASA made this thing as simple as possible so to minimize any errors, but every time I see this thing pop up in the news or on a thread somewhere, I get really nervous expecting it to be some report of a malfunction or what not.

One of those close your eyes and hold your breath until it is over (in orbit and functional in this case) situations for me. And I'm not even into space aside from occasionally stargazing.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Khaldun
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Reply #1561 on: January 05, 2022, 03:50:12 PM

I keep flashing back to the Hubble, where everybody was like "it's perfect, everything is going great" and then they were like "actually fuck it the mirror is wrong, the polishing was fucked up".
Abagadro
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Reply #1562 on: January 05, 2022, 03:55:29 PM

The goofy thing is that one of the tests they ran on Hubble on the ground TOLD THEM the optics were messed up, but they disregarded it because another test showed that it wasn't and they believed that one. Confirmation bias FTW. 

They apparently tested the everlasting fuck out of JWST since they knew it was a one-shot deal.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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Chimpy
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Reply #1563 on: January 06, 2022, 12:35:43 AM

The mirror issue on the Hubble won’t happen with this, it was designed (like most of the large the terrestrial telescopes built since Hubble) with a main mirror surface that is a field of hexagonal pieces that can all have their shape adjusted/deformed to change the focus of the mirror. These types of composite mirrors are only brought into “focus” by all the adjustments done after they are deployed.

It’s really the only way you can make a mirror with a diameter above a certain size, even when you aren’t talking about putting it into space.

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Khaldun
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Reply #1564 on: January 06, 2022, 11:05:42 AM

Right, I'm talking more this sense of dread that there's something that got overlooked. I so so so much hope not, because this is going to be so amazing once it gets to work.

I used to think ahead with such excitement to the next big space probe or mission--"oh man I wonder what THAT planet really looks like" and these days it increasingly feels like we're coming to the end of that entire era of human exploration.
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Reply #1565 on: January 06, 2022, 11:21:52 AM


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Trippy
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Reply #1566 on: January 06, 2022, 11:34:26 AM

Clever.
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Reply #1567 on: January 08, 2022, 08:30:22 AM

Mirror(s) has unfolded and last wing deployed. Now working on latching it.

https://twitter.com/NASAWebb/status/1479817105990160392
Mandella
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Reply #1568 on: January 08, 2022, 11:13:06 AM

Right, I'm talking more this sense of dread that there's something that got overlooked. I so so so much hope not, because this is going to be so amazing once it gets to work.

I used to think ahead with such excitement to the next big space probe or mission--"oh man I wonder what THAT planet really looks like" and these days it increasingly feels like we're coming to the end of that entire era of human exploration.


Wait what? Why would you say that? We just launched Lucy to flyby 8 asteroids, Mars is crawling with robots, one of which is flying(!!!), we've got a mission heading for Mercury orbit, Parker solar probe just touched the sun, JWST looks like it might actually work, and we've got upcoming reusable heavy lifters for bigger better faster outer system probes and whatever else. Oh and planned atmospheric probes of Venus.

And we may actually be going back to the Moon in a big way.

Do you mean the excitement of the first close look? Yeah, except for asteroids and outer planetoids I guess there aren't many virgins anymore, but now is the age of getting up close and personal. Still a lot to be excited about if you get into space science and engineering.
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Reply #1569 on: January 08, 2022, 11:20:02 AM

Fully deployed, off to L2 and then 5 months of testing / calibration before the science begins:

https://twitter.com/NASAWebb/status/1479888635851907075
Mandella
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Reply #1570 on: January 08, 2022, 11:32:38 AM

Oh this is interesting. I have done zero fact checking as to the document, but I pulled it from Wayne Hales twitter so it's on him if bogus.

Presumably a letter from Kepler to Galileo. In 1610.

Khaldun
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Reply #1571 on: January 08, 2022, 12:16:10 PM

It just feels like we're in a much worse environment for supporting new probes and missions. Maybe it's just more that even if there's going to be some bigger outer planet probes coming on those heavy lifters that I'm getting to that window where it's conceivable that some of them will happen far enough in the future that I might not be around to see them.
01101010
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Reply #1572 on: January 08, 2022, 02:52:04 PM

Space stuff always takes forever which is probably why it has never held my attention for long. Everything takes years to develop then months to deploy. Just the way it has to be and much respect for those folks working in that area.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Morat20
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Reply #1573 on: January 09, 2022, 09:16:34 AM

Space stuff always takes forever which is probably why it has never held my attention for long. Everything takes years to develop then months to deploy. Just the way it has to be and much respect for those folks working in that area.
Same thing it's always been: "Cheap, fast, or good". Pick two, best case.

Apollo? Fast and good, but not cheap. At all.

We did a lot of "fast and cheap" stuff in the mid-2000s -- a lot failed.

Webb was always going to be a one-shot, so they spared no expense with "Good". Especially after Hubble's teething troubles.
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Reply #1574 on: February 14, 2022, 04:54:04 PM

Webb images its first star -- 18 times -- one for each mirror:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwatKpla8s
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