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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Topic: Space Thread 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 181608 times)
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #1365 on: September 04, 2019, 12:39:10 AM

So ESA had to do an emergency course change on one of their satellites because SpaceX's magical "it is going to be the bestest internets ever" satellites was on a collision course with it.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/09/spacex-satellite-was-on-collision-course-until-esa-satellite-was-re-routed/
Fuck your weather satellite, if I get Super Satellite Internet at the cost of reliable hurricane predictions, so be it.

Seriously, extremely close LEO is a place for disposable satellites, if you aren't prepared to lose it, don't fly it.

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Draegan
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Reply #1366 on: September 04, 2019, 08:30:40 AM

My brother in law is working on those satellites. (Process engineer)
Mandella
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Reply #1367 on: September 04, 2019, 01:02:45 PM

I loved this tweet from Matt Desch (guy who owns Iriduim):





To break it down in non-alarmist terms, everybody who runs constellations has to do frequent collision avoidance. ESA averages about one a week IIRC. The problem here is that SpaceX did not respond to ESAs concerns quickly enough (SpaceX actually admitted their bad, and claimed an internal message forwarding error) and ESA had to actually expend prop and move their sat. They might have had to move theirs anyway depending on the coin flip, but having no reply from SpaceX gave them no choice. Pretty much end of story, except that ESA is working on setting up (and getting funding for) their own automated collision avoidance system and is suddenly interested in publicizing just how crowded it is up there.

And if you see anything by Greg Wyler, please remember he is the founder of OneWeb, and if there is something bad he can say about SpaceX he will be saying it.

All that understood, however, it is past time that some sort of Space Traffic Control is established. Right now collision avoidance is worked out by emails and, apparently, tweets. There really does need to be a better way.
Chimpy
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WWW
Reply #1368 on: September 04, 2019, 11:00:33 PM

The idea of throwing thousands of more objects into LEO just so that you can provide "fast internet" to the "under served" is ludicrous. (Hint: the people who will be using it won't be the poor people in remote areas, it will be priced out of their reach)

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Sir T
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Reply #1369 on: September 05, 2019, 12:40:10 AM

Unfortunatly, there probably wont be anything set up to police this stuff until there is a major collision event. Thats the way these things seem to pan out, everyone keeps pushing the way things are becasue they have got away with it all up until now, and the Status Quo is easier and cheaper.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Mandella
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Reply #1370 on: September 05, 2019, 11:55:05 AM

The idea of throwing thousands of more objects into LEO just so that you can provide "fast internet" to the "under served" is ludicrous. (Hint: the people who will be using it won't be the poor people in remote areas, it will be priced out of their reach)

I dunno about poor, but I am their target demographic. Rural, absolutely shit internet, and no terrestrial improvement options at all in the foreseeable future. The telecoms have even stopped the pretense of promising "in the next ten years," and folks I know in the ISP business honestly just laugh when they check the population density out here, even though we're only five miles from the nearest town and cable.

So yeah, there is a business case for this, and if you don't believe Musk maybe Bezos? Or Wyler?
Mandella
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Reply #1371 on: September 05, 2019, 12:15:02 PM

Unfortunatly, there probably wont be anything set up to police this stuff until there is a major collision event. Thats the way these things seem to pan out, everyone keeps pushing the way things are becasue they have got away with it all up until now, and the Status Quo is easier and cheaper.

There have already been collisions, and there will be more. That's one of the reasons that everything that goes up must have a deorbit (or graveyard orbit) plan now. It's also the reason various agencies and businesses are looking at debris removal methods for satellites that either went up before this was mandated or have just failed.

The issue now is the shear volume of traffic. Hell, it's starting to look like, well, Earth up there. You know, where we have millions of individual craft constantly moving around and often hitting each other, sometimes to huge loss of life and property? And where we have worked out some pretty elaborate traffic control systems to try to keep that at a minimum?

Right now the system in space is that once a possible collision is detected the two agencies involved just get in touch with each other and effectively flip a coin to see who moves what. Or maybe they send a delegate to arm wrestle. There is no fixed system in place just different policies and risk assessments, and if somebody does not respond for whatever reason, well, in this case the ESA just got huffy and moved their own damn satellite so no real danger, but it's easy to see situations where both sides get stubborn or unresponsive and you get a collision.

Now before anyone says Kessler, remember that the Kessler syndrome is not a long term problem in LEO. The smaller scattered debris deorbits quickly, and the larger stuff can be tracked and just becomes another satellite to watch out for. Kessler is dangerous in MEO and somewhat above, but even then can take years for the chain reaction to develop fully.

Where I'm going with all that is that yes, we need an international standard of space traffic control, just like we have international standards for flight and marine traffic. I mean, there will still be collisions, but at least it makes it easier for the lawyers to figure out who was to blame.

Real edit to add: Just to be clear, I'm actually mostly agreeing with you SirT, just adding to the thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 12:35:23 PM by Mandella »
Mandella
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Reply #1372 on: September 06, 2019, 12:48:33 PM

Just a reminder that India is going to try to soft land their Vikram lander on the moon today about 4:00 PM EST, making them if successful the fourth nation to do so.

Ars is supposed to put up a live link as soon as they have one available,

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/the-day-has-come-for-india-to-try-for-a-historic-moon-landing/?comments=1

Bear in mind that the coverage is going to be "old style" with lots of computer animation and scenes of people watching monitors in the control room (and probably cuts to heavily politicized speeches), but its still exciting to wait for those first real images back from the surface...

After action edit: And I'm going to have to wait a while longer. Loss of signal at the last 2 point something kilometers.

Heartbreaking.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 03:54:30 PM by Mandella »
Brolan
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Reply #1373 on: September 06, 2019, 07:58:02 PM

What's the word?  The landing sequence never happened?
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #1374 on: September 06, 2019, 08:59:09 PM

What's the word?  The landing sequence never happened?
It went off telemetry and then appeared to land a couple of kilometers away from the intended zone, but never re-established contact. Might be spread across the surface, might be sitting there with a busted antenna but otherwise fine. Polar location keeps anyone from just aiming a telescope at it.

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Mandella
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Reply #1375 on: September 06, 2019, 09:53:50 PM

Their orbiter that carried Vikram is fully operational and in a polar orbit, but I don't know if it has the optical resolution to make much out.

But even so, of course not being able to transmit dooms the mission as much as leaving a crater. Even more so. If it has dug a crater exposing a sheet of ice then the primary mission would have still been accomplished!
calapine
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Solely responsible for the thread on "The Condom Wall."


Reply #1376 on: September 08, 2019, 05:41:01 AM



 Heartbreak awesome, for real Heartbreak

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
Mandella
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Reply #1377 on: September 14, 2019, 11:27:28 AM



This happened Sept 10th so old news I guess, but holy crap you don't see this everyday. JAXA (Japanese space agency) had a fire on the pad that *didn't* result in an earth shattering kaboom. Which is all the more impressive considering that the fire burned for like sixteen minutes before they could get any fire suppression on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI5u0x7toTU

That's a short clip, and well worth watching for the pucker factor. That's not a failed ignition -- launch was supposed to be three and a half hours from then.

And as usual, the investigation is ongoing, and it might be a while before we know, even in general, what went wrong.

Also, glad ISS is kept stocked with plenty of supplies...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 11:31:08 AM by Mandella »
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