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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 509410 times)
calapine
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Reply #665 on: November 14, 2016, 03:30:28 PM

Sooo....what I am reading is that the current NASA "Journey to Mars" strategy (referred to as Journey to Nowhere by detractors) doesn't have much support within Trump circles.

And that beneficiaries of that change in focus would be a) The Moon as destination, including ISRU (in-situ resource utilization > hydrogen) being mentioned and b) Re-usable launch vehicles for low cost access there --> SpaceX/Blue Origin.

And possibly (own interpretation starting here) c) ESA DG Jan Wörner's Moonvillage concept, something he has been pushing since he became Director General a year ago.

Interesting.

Moon village video
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 03:43:15 PM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
lamaros
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Reply #666 on: November 14, 2016, 06:16:33 PM

I'm pretty ambivalent about sending people to Mars. At this stage, what is the point beyond the symbology?
Viin
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Reply #667 on: November 14, 2016, 07:51:43 PM

Have you been watching the elections?  awesome, for real

- Viin
Pennilenko
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Reply #668 on: November 15, 2016, 03:34:06 PM

If I did not have a kid, I would hop on the first space craft to mars. Like right the fuck now. Because if I am going to die someday anyways, I want to die on another planet than I started on.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
Kail
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Reply #669 on: November 15, 2016, 07:48:57 PM

If I did not have a kid, I would hop on the first space craft to mars. Like right the fuck now. Because if I am going to die someday anyways, I want to die on another planet than I started on.

I'd head out tomorrow, if it didn't cost more money than I'd see in a million lifetimes.  Screw this planet, y'all on your own.  I'm gonna start my own biosphere, with blackjack, and hookers.
HaemishM
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Reply #670 on: November 16, 2016, 08:50:09 AM

Where does one hire space hookers?  why so serious?

calapine
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Reply #671 on: November 16, 2016, 10:23:57 AM

Where does one hire space hookers?  why so serious?

I'll give you a discount.  why so serious?


ähm..



This tickles my "nice rocket" spot:

Ariane 5 being towed to the launch pad for tommorow's take-off. Cargo are 4 Galileo satellites (think Euro-GPS). Once they are in the air the constellation will be ready for initial services.

The short fairing (hasn't been used since 2009) gives the rocket a very unusual, stocky look. Also note the truck looking like a toy car compared to the launcher. Grin

« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 10:49:39 AM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
calapine
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Reply #672 on: November 17, 2016, 10:30:09 AM

So....some images:






That is Soyuz MS-03.
In a few hours it will "contain" ISS Expedition 50 aka Oleg Novitskiy (Roscomos), Peggy Whitson (NASA) and Thomas Pesquet (ESA).


To give them some faces, here they are the Kremilin wall, about to lay flowers at Gagarins burial site.



With all the nastiness of 2016 I find the international cooperation aspect of space flight something touchingly nice.  (Or is nicely touching? Someone help me out here please!)  Heart

If you want to watch the launch, NASA TV is streaming live: Linky

Lift-off is at 3:20 p.m EST / 20:20 UTC / 21:30 CET.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 10:34:43 AM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
calapine
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Reply #673 on: November 17, 2016, 11:54:34 AM

Feeling a bit stressed tonight, so I hope you bear with some more space posting (keeps me occupied)...


Fun Fact:
There was only one time in the entire history of astronautics/cosmonautics that a Launch Escape System was used in an actual emergency.

It was another Soyuz Mission. Sojus T-10-1 in 1983 with 2 cosomonauts on board, launching to the Saljut 7 space station.

90 seconds before lift-off a valve failed to close and Kerosin spilled on the launch pad. That looked like this:









When the ground crew realized the danger and tried to start the LAS nothing happened. It turned out that the fire already burned through the control cables to the launcher.

The radio back-up mechanism involved two technicians in two different buildings receiving a code-word, after which they were to press their activation buttons within 5 seconds of each other.

This took a few seconds to achieve. Only 2-3 seconds after the capsuled fired away the Soyuz rocket exploded below it:






The two cosmonauts experienced a G-load of 14-17 G, but were unharmed and were able to fly several missions later.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 12:11:08 PM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
Typhon
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Reply #674 on: November 17, 2016, 04:17:45 PM

I'm a big fan of your work, please to be keeping it up.  :)
lamaros
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Reply #675 on: November 17, 2016, 04:55:16 PM

I'm a big fan of your work, please to be keeping it up.  :)
Soln
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Reply #676 on: November 17, 2016, 07:21:51 PM

Typhon
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Reply #677 on: November 20, 2016, 04:47:21 PM

Seems like the EM drive is real

Such huge deal.  Really hopping someone doesn't find an error with testing methodology and that they can tweak it for more thrust/kW.
Ironwood
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Reply #678 on: November 21, 2016, 04:34:17 AM

That reads like a joke site.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
calapine
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Reply #679 on: November 21, 2016, 10:00:18 AM

That reads like a joke site.
I thought that too. This part:

The scientific community is also notoriously unconvinced about the propulsion system – just yesterday a Motherboard article on the EM Drive was deleted by the moderators of the popular subreddit r/Physics because they "consider the EM Drive to be unscientific".
So Reddit mods are now the science community?  why so serious?

---
I'm a big fan of your work, please to be keeping it up.  :)
Will do.  Heart

---
200 FPS super slow motion of the Galileo launch I talked early. (Also 75th successful start in a row) Youtube video: 24 seconds

Close up shot, same launch. Click the image for full size:

« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 10:13:35 AM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
Typhon
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Reply #680 on: November 21, 2016, 11:57:31 AM

That reads like a joke site.

It looks like a click factory.

That said this, Measurement of Impulsive Thrust from a Closed Radio-Frequency Cavity in Vacuum, looks legitimate to my untrained eye as being from NASA's Advanced Propulsion Labs and seems to say exactly what the article reported.
01101010
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Reply #681 on: November 22, 2016, 10:59:32 AM



Found on reddit... This really blows my mind the more I think about it.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Morat20
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Reply #682 on: November 30, 2016, 06:06:25 PM

That reads like a joke site.

It looks like a click factory.

That said this, Measurement of Impulsive Thrust from a Closed Radio-Frequency Cavity in Vacuum, looks legitimate to my untrained eye as being from NASA's Advanced Propulsion Labs and seems to say exactly what the article reported.
People in my department were involved in fabricating test equipment (mostly hardening and/or inventing stuff to make delicate measurements in a very cold vacuum chamber, because the stuff they'd normally used wasn't vacuum or cold rated). And the gist they were getting back from the guys doing the testing was "How the fuck is it doing this? It can't be doing this".

I'm not saying they didn't miss something, but it wasn't through lack of trying. The guys testing it didn't believe it worked, and got increasingly annoyed as it continued to work, and basically worked their asses off trying to prove it didn't work.

As far as I know, that's the legit paper on it, and the gist is "The fucker seems to emit a very small thrust, and we don't know why". And then some language stating "And we tried the obvious shit, like testing it without the power on, and testing it in vacuum, and a whole bunch of other stuff. We're not stupid, and we ALSO know it can't possibly be doing this". Ending with "Will someone else PLEASE explain what the fuck is happening? Please?"
MahrinSkel
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Reply #683 on: November 30, 2016, 06:32:06 PM

In essence, there is no way to explain it under existing theory, and they tested everything they could think of for what it might have been doing instead of actually producing thrust without reaction mass. Short of putting on in space to see if it can actually work when they do, they are open to ideas for how else to test it.

It's the fact that it works backwards that throws out most of the 'testing error' arguments. Sure, maybe thermal swelling or weird standing wave effects could possibly lead to a false thrust reading. But they wouldn't operate in reverse.

--Dave

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calapine
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Reply #684 on: December 01, 2016, 11:22:00 AM

Launch failure alert Heartbreak


Progress MS-04, an unmanned cargo spacecraft, enroute to the ISS crashed in Russia.

Telemetry was lost 383 seconds after launch, when the craft was still attached to the Soyuz carrier rocket, whose third stage was working at that time.

That's about all that is known so far.




Edit: Picture of Progress in trouble near Biysk, Sibiria.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 11:36:50 AM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
Shannow
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Reply #685 on: December 01, 2016, 11:43:02 AM

In essence, there is no way to explain it under existing theory, and they tested everything they could think of for what it might have been doing instead of actually producing thrust without reaction mass. Short of putting on in space to see if it can actually work when they do, they are open to ideas for how else to test it.

It's the fact that it works backwards that throws out most of the 'testing error' arguments. Sure, maybe thermal swelling or weird standing wave effects could possibly lead to a false thrust reading. But they wouldn't operate in reverse.

--Dave

Shits leaking in from other dimensions. We play with it more and it becomes full blown Cthulu time.

Which would be awesome in a very fucking horrible way.  awesome, for real

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Reply #686 on: December 01, 2016, 04:47:39 PM

The way this year's gone? No, it's just par for the course and would likely be met with an apathetic, "yeah, that figures. "

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
HaemishM
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Reply #687 on: December 01, 2016, 05:08:09 PM

After the never-ending pile of shit that 2016 has been, I think I might welcome the Sleeper rising from Ry'leh to reclaim the Earth.

Torinak
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Reply #688 on: December 01, 2016, 06:24:13 PM

Why do you think 2017 will be better?
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Reply #689 on: December 01, 2016, 07:03:32 PM

Do you want Tunguska events? Because that's how you get Tunguska events.
Morat20
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Reply #690 on: December 01, 2016, 08:50:06 PM

In essence, there is no way to explain it under existing theory, and they tested everything they could think of for what it might have been doing instead of actually producing thrust without reaction mass. Short of putting on in space to see if it can actually work when they do, they are open to ideas for how else to test it.

It's the fact that it works backwards that throws out most of the 'testing error' arguments. Sure, maybe thermal swelling or weird standing wave effects could possibly lead to a false thrust reading. But they wouldn't operate in reverse.

--Dave
I've seen all sorts of weird-ass theories. About half of them break physics, and the other half are more like hacks to it. It's not so much as it violates things, so much as it's so weird and edgy that even IF it worked like that, it's the kind of weird physics shit that you'd expect someone to figure out a way to exploit a few hundred years from now.

Because they know what the hell they're doing, and figure out a clever method to use it. Not...stumble into blindly.

Reactionless drives are pure sci-fi, probably more so than FTL. (We actually have at least one semi-workable FTL model that doesn't make modern physics cry).

Possibly because, absent the Culture dropping by and saying "Hi, we're here to help", reactionless drives would open up the universe. (Well to probes, not people. We're squishy and ill-adapted to space.)
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #691 on: December 01, 2016, 09:40:51 PM

It's a gift from our post-human descendants/benevolent aliens to get us off this rock before it turns into Venus?



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Shannow
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Reply #692 on: December 02, 2016, 08:32:37 AM

I'm always left with the sneaky feeling that we don't know the half of it when it comes to physics. Ok I know that a lot of that comes from the sci-fi loving, wishful thinking part of me, but modern day physics is what, 100 years old? 200 years from now they'll probably look back and laugh at the shit we believed in (right I now that was definitely from Heinlein..).

Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
Morat20
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Reply #693 on: December 02, 2016, 12:19:23 PM

I'm always left with the sneaky feeling that we don't know the half of it when it comes to physics. Ok I know that a lot of that comes from the sci-fi loving, wishful thinking part of me, but modern day physics is what, 100 years old? 200 years from now they'll probably look back and laugh at the shit we believed in (right I now that was definitely from Heinlein..).
Well, it's like anything else -- any "new physics" we discover will work pretty much like the physics we know (SM, relativity, QM) in the universe we exist in. The stuff we can't quite make fit together is generally high-energy, high temperature stuff. Places where things go...wibbly.

Newton, for instance, is perfectly fine for like 99% of the stuff we do. Even though he's wrong.

But the attempts to unify all those things (SM, relativity, and QM) gets...weird. And hard to test. Or impossible to test. I mean we just, in the last few years, validated the SM's understanding of mass. Gravity, especially when it goes all quanum, is still a big question mark even though we can describe it's workings, the mechanics under the hood have a lot of question marks. That's probably about the only area for a really big "Holy crap" kind of moment.

Being able to manipulate it, even a bit, would be....pretty useful. (Although frankly, so would being able to manipulate the Higgs field. Life would be a lot easier if we could reduce something's effective mass for a bit).
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #694 on: December 02, 2016, 01:48:55 PM

Yeah, it's not like the Em drive is producing thrust (kinetic energy) from nothing. You put energy in, you get thrust out, it's perfectly acceptable in that sense. It's not even particularly efficient as a way of turning energy into thrust (the same energy input to an ion thruster would produce orders of magnitude more impulse, I think).

It's that we can't figure out what the fuck it is pushing against to produce that thrust that is the problem. "Every action produces an equal and opposite reaction", so where the hell is the reaction? At some level, something is getting pushed against, we can be pretty sure of that. Maybe in the "dark energy" universe, this thing is shooting bullets from nowhere. Or we're creating vortices of vacuum energy we can't detect. Something is happening to produce the thrust, or else the universe makes no damned sense and it might as well be magic.

But precisely because, wherever the thrust is coming from, it isn't from mass we are hauling along with it, it opens up a whole regime of possibilities for space exploitation that had been ruled out because it either wasn't possible to make the math work (it took more reaction mass to make them happen than you could even theoretically carry) or it wouldn't be cost effective (if you have to throw 99% of your asteroid out of the solar system to deliver the remaining kernel to LEO, it's not worth it).

Constant thrust without reaction mass, no matter how small, puts the whole Solar system within reach of LEO, and makes weird really big shit like beanstalks something that could actually happen.

--Dave
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 06:55:08 PM by MahrinSkel »

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calapine
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Reply #695 on: December 05, 2016, 08:45:25 AM

Space Policy update - might not be interesting  for everyone:



So...the ESA had it's Ministerial Council, which happens every 2-4 years. It consists of the space ministers of the 22 member states...and Canada!  (Grin)

The entire thing is a bit like an conclave, in that there are 100 people in a room for 2 days - it's super-secret. The press isn't even allowed to stay for the opening statement - and once it's done they step infront of the worldpress and annoucne the result.
That the ESA communication manager is tweeting like this: "I don’t have a pope to announce. No white smoke. Still open questions." doesn't help dispelling that impression either. Snapshot from inside:




The results:

-- ESA got 10.3 billion € for 2 years. That is more than the last budget and follows the trend of the last years were we saw slight constant increases (even when account for inflation). That's good.

-- The Exomars 2020 rover got the € 340 million extra it needed. Also some of the work is shifted from Russia to Europe to ease the burden on the Russian contractors. Exomars needs another €100 million from the general budget, which means it's eating into other science missions. A situation similar to what NASA had with the James Webb Space Telescope, albeit less extreme.

-- ESA decided to stay on the ISS until 2024. As ESA has to pay NASA for that this means there will be an 2nd European Service Module (ESM) for the Orion spacecraft. Orion's first manned crewed flight - to the Moon and back - will be with an ESM thus. Unless Trump pulls the plug on either SLS or Orion before that.

-- First funding for Prométhée, stands for Precursor Reusable Oxygen METHan cost Effective Engine.  (I know, the acronym... rolleyes), has been green lighted. It is to be used in a future re-usable launcher. Metha-LOX is a bit of a fad at the moment, both Musks and Bezozs planned "super rockets" will run on Methan.

--Space Rider has been green-lighted. It's an unmanned, lifting body (= no wings) shuttle. (Think Boeing X-37) It's predecessor the IXV had successful flight earlier that year. Space Rider will be similar, just bigger. IXV:





Aside from that we had a successful launch today. Vega had it's 8th start. It's the brainchild of the Italians (Avio) and ESA's smallest rocket that's being used for payloads that don't need an Ariane 5 or Soyuz. A Vega launch costs ~35 million, as opposed to the ~ € 90 million for a Soyuz start in Kourou.



And that's it today!  smiley Edit 6th Dec: Replaced launch image with a nicer one.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 12:57:21 PM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
calapine
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Reply #696 on: December 07, 2016, 09:56:28 AM

Literally from space: Yesterdays meteor in Khakasiya, Southern Siberia.




Map for context:

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
Torinak
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Reply #697 on: December 07, 2016, 02:05:52 PM

Any pics of the Martian walkers trudging through the Siberian snow?
Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #698 on: January 06, 2017, 07:01:11 PM

Are they blaming this one on U.S. again? oh, maybe it's Obama taking a parting shot in retaliation for interfering with the election!  why so serious?

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Lucas
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Reply #699 on: January 07, 2017, 10:08:02 AM

"They should have sent a poet"

Earth-Moon from Mars orbit, courtesy of the MRO (say hello, Ozzies!).



https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/earth-and-its-moon-as-seen-from-mars

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
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