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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 509298 times)
Ghambit
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Reply #315 on: April 22, 2015, 01:27:21 AM

I'm of the belief there long ago should have been a station on the moon wherein we could expand into a self-sustaining next-gen industrial complex.  Imagine 21st century manufacturing at 1/6th the gravity and no air resistance.  The potential gains are huge.  This is before even considering building rockets to launch from there, which is obviously ideal.

Also, getting people to orbit should not be as complex as it is currently.  Really, we should only be launching single-man "escape-pod" sized rockets into orbit and allow physics and whatever orbital retrieval vehicles to do the rest.  Even Soyuz to me is overkill.  Supplies can go up the traditional way on an unmanned dragon, atlas, etc.   Having this catchall system to launch man and material simultaneously is stupid.  Weight causes an exponential loss of efficiency in rocket systems.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Lucas
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Reply #316 on: April 22, 2015, 03:32:23 AM

First (preliminary and very blurry) colour image of Pluto & Charon:
http://www.nasa.gov/content/first-pluto-charon-color-image-from-new-horizons

Waiting for July  awesome, for real

So Charon is "Texas-sized", just like the comet from Deep Impact (or was that the asteroid in "Armageddon"?). Anyway, looks like everything in space is Texas-sized. Cool, uh?


" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
pxib
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Reply #317 on: April 22, 2015, 10:11:53 AM

I'm of the belief there long ago should have been a station on the moon wherein we could expand into a self-sustaining next-gen industrial complex.
Industry? On the moon? The richest iron-bearing rock on the moon is about 25%, and that's rare. Most of the high-iron Moon ore is only 15%. Our meekest mines on Earth demand ore that's at least 35% iron. With that in mind: There is substantially more iron on the moon than any other industrial element, especially such Earth stalwarts as carbon (available only in parts per million).

So a lot of infrastructure is going to need to be shipped in.

How is this infrastructure going to be fueled? Solar power is only available for half of every month. Hydrogen - fundamental to most chemical fueling and abundant on earth's surface - is extremely rare on the moon, and evidence for the water which might hold it is still inconclusive. There are only the tiniest traces of the heavy elements that might be fission capable. Even lead is rare. And Helium-3 - despite it's numerous advantages over deuterium/tritium - still requires a functional fusion reactor... which remains beyond our technological grasp for at least half a dozen reasons.

So a lot of fuel is going to need to be shipped in.

How is this infrastructure going to be repaired? Humans can't live on the moon. There's no food, and both air and water would need to be mined. Growing food, even with hydroponics, has the same energy requirement problems that smelting does. Worse, remember Biosphere 2? Our ability to productively recycle and utilize atmosphere and biological waste is extremely limited. Having the forests of the Earth replenishing our air and the oceans replenishing our wastewater is easy to take for granted. Robots could do some of it, but look how clumsy, slow and unreliable the rovers are on Mars. Being designed to never require repair put a lot of limits on other capabilities.

So a lot of people and/or food and/or soil nutrients and/or robots are going to need to be shipped in.

All of this shipping is going to have to come from Earth. There's nowhere less expensive to mine for minerals, nowhere less expensive to produce food supplies, nowhere less expensive to construct robots and house human beings. All of the complaints that I have about industry on the moon also apply to closer orbital stations because one of the least efficient aspect of rocket travel is plowing through the atmosphere. Which brings us to your second complaint:
Really, we should only be launching single-man "escape-pod" sized rockets into orbit and allow physics and whatever orbital retrieval vehicles to do the rest.  Even Soyuz to me is overkill.  Supplies can go up the traditional way on an unmanned dragon, atlas, etc.  Having this catchall system to launch man and material simultaneously is stupid.
First, smaller rockets are less efficient than larger rockets for the same reason that tiny things have a smaller terminal velocity than large things: More surface area per unit mass.

Second, it's a lot cheaper to produce and reclaim a single rocket system than to produce and reclaim several different rocket systems. Equipment re-use and industrial economy of scale are what theoretically drops the ASTP LEO costs to $200/kg by 2025.

The cost of putting a person (and their life-support and safety equipment) on board a large, efficient supply rocket is small-potatoes if we already have to launch a supply of large smelting crucibles and hopper trucks and whatever. That said, if you're interested in novel ways to put people in orbit, take a look at NASA's space plane plans. Getting from orbit to the moon would still require propellant, however, and that propellant will almost certainly have to come through Earth's atmosphere. Conventional, large rockets remain the best way to do that.

Just like conventional, Earth-bound industry remains the best way to support space programs.

if at last you do succeed, never try again
calapine
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Reply #318 on: April 22, 2015, 11:21:51 AM

Rendering of the E-ELT, together with some size comparisons. From Reddit, but I thought it's nifty enough to post here.

Image is too large for the forum, so as direct link:

http://i.imgur.com/QhCWWFe.jpg

Quote from: Wikipedia
The European Extremely Large Telescope (E-ELT) is a ground-based extremely large telescope for the optical/near-infrared range, currently being built by the European Southern Observatory (ESO) on top of Cerro Armazones in the Atacama Desert of northern Chile. The design comprises a reflecting telescope with a 39.3-metre-diameter segmented primary mirror, a 4.2-metre-diameter secondary mirror, and will be supported by adaptive optics and multiple instruments.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 11:27:57 AM by calapine »

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Hawkbit
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Reply #319 on: April 22, 2015, 11:59:53 AM

Overwhelmingly Large Telescope
(cancelled)

Ha!

Not stymied by the cancellation of the OLT, the team next prepares plans for the Ludicrously Large Telescope.
ajax34i
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Reply #320 on: April 23, 2015, 05:36:55 PM

Somebody needs to develop anti-gravity. Or a way to cancel mass. Or some other way to flip physics the bird.

I was somewhat serious.  Their rocket has no issues staying vertical in-flight and aiming for the center of the platform, it's just once it touches down its side thrusters aren't sufficient for the problem of how to balance a pencil vertically on a desk.  And they'd want to turn off the thrusters at some point so they can refuel and whatnot.
Morat20
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Reply #321 on: April 23, 2015, 06:53:44 PM

Somebody needs to develop anti-gravity. Or a way to cancel mass. Or some other way to flip physics the bird.

I was somewhat serious.  Their rocket has no issues staying vertical in-flight and aiming for the center of the platform, it's just once it touches down its side thrusters aren't sufficient for the problem of how to balance a pencil vertically on a desk.  And they'd want to turn off the thrusters at some point so they can refuel and whatnot.
That wasn't a sarcastic response. That was literally "Doing that would make this space travel stuff a lot easier".
Tannhauser
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Reply #322 on: April 25, 2015, 05:27:08 AM

Rendering of the E-ELT, together with some size comparisons. From Reddit, but I thought it's nifty enough to post here.

Image is too large for the forum, so as direct link:

http://i.imgur.com/QhCWWFe.jpg

Quote from: Wikipedia
The European Extremely Large Telescope (E-ELT) is a ground-based extremely large telescope for the optical/near-infrared range, currently being built by the European Southern Observatory (ESO) on top of Cerro Armazones in the Atacama Desert of northern Chile. The design comprises a reflecting telescope with a 39.3-metre-diameter segmented primary mirror, a 4.2-metre-diameter secondary mirror, and will be supported by adaptive optics and multiple instruments.

Great map, but the James Webb is where's it's at.  Won't have to see through the pesky atmosphere. 
calapine
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Reply #323 on: April 25, 2015, 06:46:43 PM

Great map, but the James Webb is where's it's at.  Won't have to see through the pesky atmosphere.  

Well, the E-ELT uses (will use) adaptive optics (they bend the mirrors) to compensate for that. But it's really more a synergy situation: the JWST strong points are high wavelengths (near & mid infra-red), while the E-ELT has a much higher spatial resolution.

And thankfully it's more collaboration than competition: The E-ELT will be open to non-ESO scientists, time slots are given out based on scientific merit. JWST on the other hand as ESA as minority partner (it will be launched by an Ariane 5 actually).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 06:50:20 PM by calapine »

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angry.bob
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Reply #324 on: April 25, 2015, 10:35:57 PM

Anyway, looks like everything in space is Texas-sized. Cool, uh?

If only there was a way to get a Texas-sized Texas out into space a lot of domestic problems would dwindle away.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
calapine
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Reply #325 on: April 29, 2015, 09:56:42 AM

A Russian Progress freighter that was launched yesterday from Baikunor to resupply the ISS is out of control and will most likely burn up in the atmosphere.

The issue seems to stem from the Soyuz 2-1A rocket it was launched with, the third stage engines either burned too long or with too much thrust, this resulted in an incorrect orbit:

Code:
Actual     278 - 193 km
Nominal    240 - 193 km

Additionally the craft is spinning. The ground-control sent a command to fire up the engines [to stabilize the craft] which was received but failed to be executed.


Onboard camera - Progress rotating

Launch video from 28. 4. 2015


This isn't the only recent Soyuz failure: In August 2014 a Soyuz launched from Kourou put two Galileo satellites into a wrong orbit. The problem turned out to be a design failure: A connection between an hydrazine and a cold helium feed line worked as a thermic bridge and lead to the hydrazine freezing. Which lead to the connected attitude control thrusters failing.

Edit: I made a GIF:




Edit2: Roscosmos now officially considers Progress M-27M lost. De-orbit and burn up in the atmosphere is expected around 5th to 7th May. The next Progress freighter to supply the ISS (M-28M) is scheduled to launch in Q3 2015.

Source
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 12:21:22 PM by calapine »

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Ghambit
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Reply #326 on: April 29, 2015, 03:05:05 PM

I'm still fuming the Russians lost my solar sail.  I fuckin donated to that project and it was never re-started.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
calapine
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Reply #327 on: April 29, 2015, 04:08:21 PM

I'm still fuming the Russians lost my solar sail.  I fuckin donated to that project and it was never re-started.

Oh..do you have a story to tell?  smiley What are you talking about? Cosmos 1?



Fake Edit: If someone likes to watch rockets launches, there have been two successful ones in just the last days:

26th April: Ariane-5 ECA carrying Thor-7 and Sicral-2

28th April: Falcon 9 v1.1 carrying Turkmenalem52e/Monacosat
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 04:16:04 PM by calapine »

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Ghambit
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Reply #328 on: April 29, 2015, 05:45:27 PM

Yah, Cosmos1.  I was really excited for that project only to see it explode due to the wonders of modern Russian engineering.   Ohhhhh, I see.   Actually, it wasnt modern at all.  TPS took the cheap route and just strapped it to the back of an old ICBM.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
pxib
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Reply #329 on: May 01, 2015, 11:57:58 AM

Rosetta's approach to the comet last August, 800km to 30km.

What a weird little pile of rocks.

In other news MESSENGER crashed successfully into Mercury. That would have happened six weeks earlier when it ran out of the fuel required to maintain its orbit against the tidal forces of the Sun, but project scientists figured out how to use its helium coolant as reaction mass (and then propellant) to keep it taking photos and measurements.

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calapine
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Reply #330 on: May 01, 2015, 06:02:22 PM

Oh, that reminds me...

A follow up cartoon with Rosetta & Philea about the comet-landing. For children and today's average adult media consumers.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Once upon a time # comet-landing

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
Tannhauser
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Reply #331 on: May 01, 2015, 07:22:56 PM

That was adorable, though I could have done without all the techno jibber jabber!  Now, where's mah beer..

Lucas
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Reply #332 on: May 07, 2015, 06:05:37 PM

Italian astronaut Samantha Cristoforetti, currently on the ISS, shows us how some of the most mundane cleaning rituals in the bathroom (cutting nails, shampoo, brushing your teeth, using soap) actually work in space.

Beside being so proud of her, I won't lie: tears came up during the water/soap part. Just so beautiful and mesmerizing  Heart Heart Heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=15&v=nPUvzn3CTQc

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Lantyssa
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Reply #333 on: May 08, 2015, 10:46:14 AM

Ah yeah, shower scene in space!

Joking aside, that was pretty cool.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Lucas
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Reply #334 on: May 08, 2015, 07:16:12 PM

Oh my god, this is beautiful  ACK!  Love Letters

Sunset on Mars...with a blue-tinged sky! (no artificial color corrections)

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=4581

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Tannhauser
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Reply #335 on: May 08, 2015, 08:15:46 PM

That is some cool-ass shit right there.  Nice find Lucas.  I hope I live long enough to see someone put boots on Mars.
pxib
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Reply #336 on: May 08, 2015, 09:08:56 PM

This one, on the other hand, is false color... stitched together by a guy who just wanted to make it feel like being on Mars:

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pxib
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Reply #337 on: May 13, 2015, 04:14:20 PM

Also, the bright spots in the crater on Ceres are actually clusters of smaller spots.

My guess is still ice, since I think the dwarf planet is a wandering centaur, but I haven't got a clue what would make Ceres spew out shiny chunks of ice like that.

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Ghambit
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Reply #338 on: May 13, 2015, 11:34:59 PM

The geometry is kinda creepy to me from this angle. 

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Khaldun
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Reply #339 on: May 14, 2015, 07:06:00 AM

Also, the bright spots in the crater on Ceres are actually clusters of smaller spots.

My guess is still ice, since I think the dwarf planet is a wandering centaur, but I haven't got a clue what would make Ceres spew out shiny chunks of ice like that.

Ceres isn't a centaur. Its orbit doesn't cross the orbit of any of the major planets.

The bright spots are definitely weird and interesting, though. I am beginning to wonder if observation at even closest approach is going to resolve what they are.

pxib
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Reply #340 on: May 14, 2015, 08:20:31 AM

Ceres isn't a centaur. Its orbit doesn't cross the orbit of any of the major planets.
Hence my 'wandering'. In much the same way that Pheobe is theorized to potentially be a captured centaur, I think that Ceres isa Kuiper belt ice and rock ball that fell towards the sun and then got caught in the same gravitational interference pattern that created the rest of the asteroid belt. As opposed to being a collected cluster of smaller asteroids, or being a captured rocky NEO from the inner solar system.

if at last you do succeed, never try again
Ghambit
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Reply #341 on: May 14, 2015, 12:37:24 PM

I think it's some kind of heavy mineral.  The reflection is way too strong for it to be an old ice formation (the ice would get discolored over time) and there is no indication of any kind of cryovulcan ice plumage.   It literally looks like the exposed corner of a geode... which have indeed been discovered at planetary scales, though obviously never imaged.

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01101010
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Reply #342 on: May 14, 2015, 01:22:19 PM

The death star's moon camouflage is wearing away...  why so serious?

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Ghambit
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Reply #343 on: May 20, 2015, 08:55:23 PM

Lightsail just launched on the Atlas 5 carrying the x-37b:
http://sail.planetary.org/

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Lucas
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Reply #344 on: June 11, 2015, 03:36:16 PM

Today, NASA announced the media activities and television coverage of the New Horizons mission:
http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-announces-television-coverage-media-activities-for-pluto-flyby

New video of Pluto & Charon "orbital dance", obtained from the most recent LORRI observations (29th May - 3rd June) :
http://www.space.com/29647-pluto-and-charon-orbital-dance-new-horizons-gets-closer-video.html

Damn, getting really excited about this, no matter it's going to be "just" a flyby  awesome, for real

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Tannhauser
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Reply #345 on: June 11, 2015, 05:37:43 PM

Lightsail just launched on the Atlas 5 carrying the x-37b:
http://sail.planetary.org/

Too bad Lightsail is having problems, I really like this idea.
calapine
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Reply #346 on: June 14, 2015, 05:29:47 AM

So Philae is back again.  Heart Didn't expect that any more...

From the press release

  • Contact yesterday at 22:28 CEST for 85 seconds
  • Lander operating temperature - 35° C with 24 Watt power available
  • 300 data packets received, 8000 more stored in memory
  • Older data shows lander woke up several times before but couldn't connect to Rosetta then
  • Last contact was in November 2014 when Philae hibernated due to lack of power

http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2015/06/14/rosettas-lander-philae-wakes-up-from-hibernation/
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 05:37:01 AM by calapine »

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pxib
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Reply #347 on: June 14, 2015, 09:44:54 PM


if at last you do succeed, never try again
Shannow
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Reply #348 on: June 15, 2015, 07:51:16 AM

Philaebob Squarepants?

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Lucas
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Reply #349 on: June 30, 2015, 06:01:12 AM

- 2 weeks to Pluto-Charon flyby (16M Km to go); here is a raw image taken yesterday by LORRI, but you can already make out some details! :



Full resolution here

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
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