Hi-Rez buys Tribes IP; plans MMO

[Malakili]

Yeah, they are slowly trying to dial it back to give chasers a fighting chance, I think overall that is a good thing.

The new map is decent, if a bit small.  I like that there are a bunch of buildings worth actually caring about that aren't immediately at one of the main bases.

[Thrawn]

Hey look, Hi-Rez is finally waking up to some of the glaring issues with the game, maybe it has hope yet.  A snip from something they posted -

Future Balance/Gameplay - Under Consideration

++ Snipers - Re-evaluate when spawning naked or in base loadout for armor type (PTH, SLD, JUG) is used in game. Hypothesis: sniper suppression too difficult. Balance evaluated.

You mean respawns being extremely short and starting you at full load no matter what and at a great ski start space on most maps causes issues?  Shocking!

[Malakili]

Hey look, Hi-Rez is finally waking up to some of the glaring issues with the game, maybe it has hope yet.  A snip from something they posted -

Future Balance/Gameplay - Under Consideration

++ Snipers - Re-evaluate when spawning naked or in base loadout for armor type (PTH, SLD, JUG) is used in game. Hypothesis: sniper suppression too difficult. Balance evaluated.

You mean respawns being extremely short and starting you at full load no matter what and at a great ski start space on most maps causes issues?  Shocking!

Well at least they are finally realizing this, they've been getting feedback that it is bad for the game since literally the first day of closed beta (and probably before from their alpha testers if I had to guess). 

[Thrawn]

Well at least they are finally realizing this, they've been getting feedback that it is bad for the game since literally the first day of closed beta (and probably before from their alpha testers if I had to guess). 

Apparently from reading what they posted, the issue that made them realize this is that it's impossible to shut down snipers.  If you find one, kill him, and then make a flag run he's back in place killing you before you even get back to base with the flag.

[Thrawn]

This could also be safely moved out of the MMO forum. 

[Malakili]

This could also be safely moved out of the MMO forum. 

I mentioned that about 5 pages ago but I don't think anyone cares enough :).  To be fair, there is a supposedly an MMO version following eventually.   We could just let this thread go away and start a new thread in the other forum.

On the topic of snipers - I think that is the most obvious problem, but not the only one.   I'm as, if not more concerned with the fact that it basically discourages caring at all about your base and your strategic assets which is a large part of what makes Tribes more interesting than other shooters.  Sure the jetpacks and skiing are integral, but if that is all that matters I think they've made a very nice Team Death Match mode which captures that kind of gameplay much better the CTF maps manage to anyway.

But whatever, if it is the sniper issue that gets them to rethink it, then all the better.  I'd like to see them go a little farther than just spawning in the free version of whichever armor you are using though.  Maybe spawn without your pack and belt items as well.

[Thrawn]

I get a kick out of people who argue that the game is slowed down by too much defense but also argue that spawning in full gear is a good thing.

I don't think they realize that on most maps, if I'm squatting on flag as Doombringer and you orbital strike me I'm back on the flag stand dropping new mines and a shield in a matter of seconds.  Sometimes as a Tech it's almost faster to just kill yourself to get a second turret then it is to run to an inventory station if you don't have a mobile one dropped nearby.  Generator down and you're on D?  Just kill yourself for a full new load of items and ammo in the short time it takes to get back to your flag stand.

[Malakili]

So it begins....

Hi-Rez released the first patch in which they are including straight up new weapons and skins for a class.  Infiltrator has gotten 3 new weapons, and 2 new skins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNqaiUl27MQ

They are including the whole thing in a bundle for 2000 gold (which is maybe ~20 dollars?).  As well as a few other bundles which include various combinations of weapons and skins.  Buying everything separately  will cost... 3640 gold.   So...yeah, that is really expensive.  $20 is 1800 gold. The skins are purchasable only with gold.  The weapons can be unlocked with in game experience points like all other weapons.    The new skins are terrible looking, but I am sure some folks will like them.  I don't think they go very well with the aesthetic of the game.  It also seems to me that both skins are team-neutral - which means you could see either skin on either team.  Although you usually use the HUD to determine team rather than the skin it still irks em a bit.  The aesthetics don't seem to match the rest of the game either, but I digress..

If we see new unlocks of this price level with any kind of frequency it will get out of hand quickly, not to mention the balancing act is going to be increasingly difficult with huge amounts of new unlocks.   This was always the worry with free to play, so I hope they manage to do a good job.  I can't see myself ever buying a skin, and I won't be unlocking any of these weapons.   On the plus side, I've already easily gotten my 30 bucks I put in worth, so if it goes south I can just up and leave.

[Thrawn]

On the plus side, I've already easily gotten my 30 bucks I put in worth, so if it goes south I can just up and leave.

Same, also I finally saw the new map last night and it actually didn't feel that bad to me.

What bothers me is the fact that they game is still said to be in beta, but they are now releasing skins and crap to try and make $$ instead of fixing some of the many issues?  This game isn't going to last.  Which makes me sad, I was a huge Tribes fan and player when 1/2 were big.

[Malakili]

On the plus side, I've already easily gotten my 30 bucks I put in worth, so if it goes south I can just up and leave.

Same, also I finally saw the new map last night and it actually didn't feel that bad to me.

What bothers me is the fact that they game is still said to be in beta, but they are now releasing skins and crap to try and make $$ instead of fixing some of the many issues?  This game isn't going to last.  Which makes me sad, I was a huge Tribes fan and player when 1/2 were big.

Well, they are only just over a couple weeks from official release at this point, so I don't mind that too much, worth doing one of these during "beta" to work the kinks out, or at least you can make the argument that it is.   This update does make me worry the same as you though, if this is the type of update we can expect, this game is definitely not going to last and F2P will claim another victim.

[Thrawn]

For me I think it really boils down to the fact that I feel like Tribes:NEXT is still a better game than Ascend.

Kinda wish I hadn't spent almost all of my pre-order gold and stuff on an XP boost now.  (Still have like a month left or something)

[Malakili]

For me I think it really boils down to the fact that I feel like Tribes:NEXT is still a better game than Ascend.

Kinda wish I hadn't spent almost all of my pre-order gold and stuff on an XP boost now.  (Still have like a month left or something)

Yeah, Tribes: Next is better, and I still play it from time to time, but the fact that there is exactly one server worth playing on hurts it a bit.

[MahrinSkel]

So it begins....

Hi-Rez released the first patch in which they are including straight up new weapons and skins for a class.  Infiltrator has gotten 3 new weapons, and 2 new skins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNqaiUl27MQ

They are including the whole thing in a bundle for 2000 gold (which is maybe ~20 dollars?).  As well as a few other bundles which include various combinations of weapons and skins.  Buying everything separately  will cost... 3640 gold.   So...yeah, that is really expensive.  $20 is 1800 gold. The skins are purchasable only with gold.  The weapons can be unlocked with in game experience points like all other weapons.    The new skins are terrible looking, but I am sure some folks will like them.  I don't think they go very well with the aesthetic of the game.  It also seems to me that both skins are team-neutral - which means you could see either skin on either team.  Although you usually use the HUD to determine team rather than the skin it still irks em a bit.  The aesthetics don't seem to match the rest of the game either, but I digress..

If we see new unlocks of this price level with any kind of frequency it will get out of hand quickly, not to mention the balancing act is going to be increasingly difficult with huge amounts of new unlocks.   This was always the worry with free to play, so I hope they manage to do a good job.  I can't see myself ever buying a skin, and I won't be unlocking any of these weapons.   On the plus side, I've already easily gotten my 30 bucks I put in worth, so if it goes south I can just up and leave.

The skins are purely cosmetic (and can only be unlocked with gold), I think they're overpriced, but they're "anchoring" them at a high level and probably trying to see how that affects the sales.  The weapons can be unlocked with XP, and I'll probably unlock the Jackal and play with it tonight.  The fact that it can be used as a flak cannon seems gamebreakingly overpowered to me, but we'll see.  The smokes grenades are a bit "meh", especially as to use them you have to give up the sticky grenades (on the other hand, with the ARX-lite Jackal INF's aren't dependent on those to take out generators and such anymore).

Combine the stealth spinfusor (a primary) or the Rhino SMG (alternate primary) and the Jackal (a secondary) with the stealth pack and Ninja Smoke for instantly ending any fight you aren't winning, and we've probably got a new premier duelist class, even without the flak cannon.  As people get better with using it that way, I expect they're going to have to take that out.

It happens that some of the players in the early beta came from a game called Legions, which had a similar weapon (that was removed over being insanely overpowered there), so they already knew how to use it for maximum effect.

--Dave

[Malakili]

Yea, I just got a chance to play.  The weapon is currently the best death matching weapon in the game by a fairly wide margin from what I can tell. 

[Pennilenko]

So is the problem that this weapon is bad because of its power or that you can buy it with gold? Because if the problem is because it is for sale with gold, then it is not an issue because I already purchased the new weapons with saved up XP.

[Malakili]

So is the problem that this weapon is bad because of its power or that you can buy it with gold? Because if the problem is because it is for sale with gold, then it is not an issue because I already purchased the new weapons with saved up XP.

The problem is that its just too powerful, not that it costs gold.  INF just became the best deathmatch loadout in the game if it has this weapon.

[MahrinSkel]

The gold thing is people bitching because a "free to play" game wants to make money, maybe, somehow.  Whiny bullshit.  The "Overpowered" part: Almost certainly.  Infiltrators can now appear out of nowhere and drop 1500 damage on anyone (enough to kill anything but a heavy, and leave them with only about as much health as the Infiltrator), *and* they can trigger mid-air explosions which means they have a sizable advantage over everyone else in an open-field battle (because they can get damage out of near-misses in the air).

Timing the explosion will take skill and practice, but it's still a trick nobody else can match.

EDIT: One way it's not as bad as I thought; It's a replacement Primary, which means you can't combine it with the Rhino or the Spinfusor.  The knives are the only new Secondary, they're pretty much the same overall as the pistol they replace (twice the damage, half the ROF), except they get a small amount of splash on a near miss.  Yeah, laser knives that apparently explode on impact, but what the hell.

[Malakili]

I think the worry is that because they are charging real money for them they will intentionally release things OP to get people to buy them.  That is where the two arguments converge, and I think its a potentially legitimate concern.  Its too hard to say with a sample size of one.   Also, they have been pretty terrible with balance across the board on their first pass of things, so I wouldn't jump out and call this intentional.

[Pennilenko]

As long as i can buy new weapons and perks and junk with XP instead of gold I will stay happy. Don't get me wrong, I buy gold and buy stuff like boosters, but I am not about to spend more than 20 bucks every couple of months.

[lesion]

Regarding the Jackal, today's patch:

Damaged caused by early in-air detonation of Infiltrator's Jackal rounds reduced by 50%. Knockback from in-air detonation also decreased by 50%.
Damage against armored targets with Infiltrator's Jackal rounds increased 20% (Fixed an issue where full damage was not being applied).
Fixed an issue where the sticky explosives from the Infiltrator's Jackal could not be destroyed with bullet based weapons.

I usually play Doomie so hoorah.

[Malakili]

http://www.spinfusor.org/2012/02/27/perpetual-newbdom-the-llamagrabber/

Llama

[lah-muh]
noun
1. a woolly-haired South American ruminant of the genus Lama, species L. glama.  believed to be a domesticated variety of the guanaco: often used as a beast of burden.

Origin:
1590–1600;  < Spanish  < Quechua llama  (with palatal l )

Llamagrab

[scream of unending torment]
verb, llamagrabbed, llamagrab·bing, noun, verb (used with flag)
1. to induce an aneurysm in members of one’s own team.
2. to take possession of the flag at low speeds; seize forcibly or unscrupulously in front of other cappers.
3. to obtain the flag and die quickly: Let’s llamagrab when the defence still consists of 7 pissed off DoomBringers and 8 Technicians with OCD.
4. to seize suddenly or quickly without any sense or logic: Why the…Th- The fuck d-did… You llamagrabbed!? Why would you poss- YOU STUPID STUPID, STUPID FUCKING – AAARRGGH!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING!? DIE! FUCKING DIE!! I WANT YOU TO DIE!! – I’M GOING TO TRACK THIS FUCKER’S IP!

[Malakili]

When the private servers are released there will be a competition setting that I created based on initial feedback while we first were playing games.
I encourage discussion of what a ruleset should include based on the available server flags.
You will be able to "flip a switch" and your server is in "Competition Mode", which is a bundle of server flags. The idea was to create some baseline then adapt the ruleset from there. As tournaments become more regular post-release, I will be coordinating with the organizers as well as the community to make a revised official Competitive ruleset.
You will be able to combine any server settings you like but the game will be seen by other players as a "Custom Ruleset" on the server browser unless using the ruleset outlined above.
Ruleset:
No Tactical strikes
No Orbital strikes
Shrike increased to 13.5k
Tank increased to 6k
-- 1 of each vehicle per team
Naked Spawn
-- Pathfinder, no upgrades, no grenades
0 Respawn Timer
Friendly Fire ON (50%)
No automatic generator re spawn
Multiplier on cost of upgrades (I think it is at 1x currently)
Deployables not tied to generator (Not 100% on this one, need to double check

Source: http://forum.hirezstudios.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=816458#p816458

Well, I know on which servers I will be playing.  I'd like to be able to tweak it further to allow for destructable vehicle stations and inv. stations, but I'll take it where I can get it at this point.

[Thrawn]

Source: http://forum.hirezstudios.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=816458#p816458

Well, I know on which servers I will be playing.  I'd like to be able to tweak it further to allow for destructable vehicle stations and inv. stations, but I'll take it where I can get it at this point.

The idea of NOT playing in that "competition mode" seems crazy to me.  I even think friendly fire 50% is a good balance since the game is so heavy with explosive/splash damage but a direct friendly mortar is still likely to wreck your day.

[MahrinSkel]

Friendly Fire isn't an option on public servers of a game that gets a lot of newbies.  It wasn't until a year or so after release of T1 and T2 that anyone would play a public server with FF on, you just got too many griefers.  Only once the games started to die (stopped getting newbies) did FF-on become the default.

Ranked servers seem much more interesting (it's going to use an ELO-derived algorithm to balance the teams).  I don't much enjoy being on either side of a 5-0 match that caps out in 5 minutes, which is entirely too common.  All it takes is one group of three or four on Mumble, or 3-4 "Gold" level players.  Generally I always switch teams after winning a 5-0 match, but nobody can carry a team all by themselves.  There are about 4 roles that *have* to be covered for a team to have a chance, and if any two of those aren't, then nothing any one person joining can do will fix it (I can do defense disruption, chaser, or capper, I'm pretty crappy as HoF or any other kind of Flag D).

--Dave

EDIT: BTW, now that they've tuned down the "Flak Cannon" part of the Jackal to 300 max damage (needing 3-4 of them to kill a light now) it's a lot easier to deal with, while still useful in ways the Rhino or Stealth Spinfusor aren't.  It's still better than the ARX Buster on the Raider (100 less damage per round, but it's a lot easier to catch someone with a triple-hit when the rounds all blow at once) for open-field work, and even better for demolition (it actually gets the 20% bonus against Armored, Buster doesn't).

[Malakili]

Friendly Fire isn't an option on public servers of a game that gets a lot of newbies.  It wasn't until a year or so after release of T1 and T2 that anyone would play a public server with FF on, you just got too many griefers.  Only once the games started to die (stopped getting newbies) did FF-on become the default.

Ranked servers seem much more interesting (it's going to use an ELO-derived algorithm to balance the teams).  I don't much enjoy being on either side of a 5-0 match that caps out in 5 minutes, which is entirely too common.  All it takes is one group of three or four on Mumble, or 3-4 "Gold" level players.  Generally I always switch teams after winning a 5-0 match, but nobody can carry a team all by themselves.  There are about 4 roles that *have* to be covered for a team to have a chance, and if any two of those aren't, then nothing any one person joining can do will fix it (I can do defense disruption, chaser, or capper, I'm pretty crappy as HoF).

--Dave

Ranked servers might solve some of the problem with the default ruleset, but I think the competitive ruleset sounds much more appealing to me.  If ranked servers used it I'd be all over it though.  Nonethelesss, huge team imbalance is a big part of the problem, you are right.  There is just a huge differential in overall ability right now and it means that new players not only have less physical skill (ski worse, aim worse, etc) but also understand WAY LESS about what decisions they should be making which means they just get run over.  The best players win the game for their team, and then on the next map the good players from the other team switch to play with a competent team or just quit the game.  I guess they should force shuffle the teams every map.

[Thrawn]

Friendly Fire isn't an option on public servers of a game that gets a lot of newbies.  It wasn't until a year or so after release of T1 and T2 that anyone would play a public server with FF on, you just got too many griefers.  Only once the games started to die (stopped getting newbies) did FF-on become the default.

So my gameplay gets punished because your average gamer is an idiot.  That doesn't seem very fair to me. 

[Malakili]

Friendly Fire isn't an option on public servers of a game that gets a lot of newbies.  It wasn't until a year or so after release of T1 and T2 that anyone would play a public server with FF on, you just got too many griefers.  Only once the games started to die (stopped getting newbies) did FF-on become the default.

So my gameplay gets punished because your average gamer is an idiot.  That doesn't seem very fair to me. 

Let's just pool some money together and run an f13 server and ban idiots arbitrarily.

[Gets]

I might start playing again for that.

[Sheepherder]

Is it really that hard to design an algorithm that kicks or otherwise punishes douchebags?

[MahrinSkel]

Is it really that hard to design an algorithm that kicks or otherwise punishes douchebags?

That can't be gamed by the douchebags to punish innocent people?  Yes.

--Dave

[Malakili]

Is it really that hard to design an algorithm that kicks or otherwise punishes douchebags?

From Hi-Rez servers the point is moot - they want money from the douchebags the same as everyone else.  Not to mention there are tons of people who play really badly and aren't douchebags, they are just bad at the game and don't understand good ways to play.

This is why I reiterate the need for an f13 server!  Seriously though, I'm going to see what they are charging when that info is released.

[Thrawn]

http://forum.hirezstudios.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=815247#p815247

Just what I needed, another thing to hate about how Hi-Rez is handling this game.  I don't know how I didn't notice it before but it does explain why I ended up hating playing Jug because I could never aim mortars from long range worth a damn.

A few posts down someone posts a video showing that the raider arx has a longer range than the mortar cannon.

[Malakili]

Hmm, this explains why long shots are hard to aim, its totally unintuitive.

On the plus side, the classic Tribes map Raindance is going to be coming soon.   And so my love hate relationship continues.

[Thrawn]

And so my love hate relationship continues.

Agreed, love what it could be, hate where it seems to be going.

[Malakili]

And so my love hate relationship continues.

Agreed, love what it could be, hate where it seems to be going.

Well, I actually enjoy playing what it is most of the time.  But the one thing I really REALLY hate is how few people understand how to play defense.  If I'm not defending the flag stand my team almost never has anyone competent doing it.  I understand that Tribes is kind of specific and people might not understand how to play, but god damn if it isn't frustrating to get these games where both flags are off the stand 90% of the time and you just have to pray that you happen to get luck everyone in a while and sync up the flag return when your capper gets home.

On the one hand, this is why I've been playing more defense lately, on the other hand, most teams don't have good capper either.

The thing is, if they just made base defense matter more people would actually do it.  As it is, a lot of people treat CTF like team death match because they can respawn with a full loadout and go.  Team death match is FINE, but I don't know why people who like it don't just play that mode.

I think the competitive rule set is going to solve most of my problems - probably also because idiots won't pay on a private server with that rule set anyway.

Ok /rant.