Anonymous Mythic employee dishes dirt on WAR and SWTOR

[Ingmar]

Lum will probably have something to say at some point, if only because his blog is as much an MMO drama news site as it is a spot for his own opinions.

A 20gb install doesn't really bother me. $300 million is pretty crazy if true, but at most companies people like artists aren't in a position to know those kind of numbers, so I am somewhat skeptical.

EDIT: Oh, I see, his comment is that he has no comment. Which is about what I figured.

[Stabs]

I don't think it's on Marketing to retain those customers. Unless marketing created Tor Anroc.

That would actually explain a lot, now that I think about it.

Someone is responsible for timing a game's launch. Even if it's someone who doesn't realise that certain phases of MMOland are more supportive to the fumblings of new-born games than other times.

MMOland is dominated by WoW. Well over half of the people playing subscription MMOs in the West are WoW players. These players experience enthusiasm cycles based around WoW's expansions.

So in December most MMO gamers will go back to WoW. Any games launched in October/November will lose lots of people, any games planning to launch in Jan will not sell great numbers.

And developers know this. Even DCUO has recently looked up, saw the headlights of the oncoming truck, squeaked and jumped away from a November 2010 launch.

This wasn't as well known in 2008. In fact MJ seemed to have had the attitude "we're so good we can launch against WoW and beat them". This was a mistake. A marketing mistake. (Marketing with a small m as the decision seems to have come from the top).

[DraconianOne]

It sounds like that's the full client install. I did point it out above; the size of install and patches is one of the reasons I think VO in an MMORPG is a Mistake.

Points of comparison from my work HD:

• LotRO + Moria and Mirkwood + high def textures: 12.6 GB
• STO: 7.35 GB
• Guild Wars w/all expansions: 2.24 GB

My WoW installation: 21Gb - 16Gb of which is in the Data subfolder.

[DraconianOne]

Lum will probably have something to say at some point, if only because his blog is as much an MMO drama news site as it is a spot for his own opinions.

What Lum has said, back in March, was that he did back of an envelope calculations about SWTORs budget based on the assertion that it'd need a bare minimum of 1 million subscribers to break even - $150m was the estimate.  Will add link if I can be arsed - it was on his MMO column rather than his blog.

[Ratman_tf]

What about firing people on donut day.

http://www.warhammeronline.com/newsletterarchive/2008/September2008.html

Firing people on donut day? Jesus that's low.

[Arthur_Parker]

Yeah, the people left because the game was bad. Not sure what marketing could have done to avoid that short of brainwashing them into thinking the game was fun somehow.

I agree 100%.  As someone else said earlier, the rant reads like an angry "I quit game x" post, but quite often, if you go way way back in the post history of those posters, they were hardcore fans.  If you look at his strange focus on marketing in that light it makes more sense, a couple of months after release I remember a lot of the fanboi's being very pissed off that other mmo adverts were appearing on their favourite forums, blizzard even had a tv spot.  They thought the game needed more advertising, to bring yet more players, when it was clear to everyone else (EA probably included) that the word was out and the judgement already in.  I don't think groups of people working for Mythic are immune to that kind of thinking, especially if it means more of the blame can be assigned outside your own department, the marketing bastards probably have a better coffee machine too.

[Mrbloodworth]

Marketing gets all the chicks.

[jakonovski]

Someone needs to tell these game companies how much their products suck. The obvious solution is an F13 mmo consultancy. 

[Nebu]

Someone needs to tell these game companies how much their products suck. The obvious solution is an F13 mmo consultancy. 

I think they just need to get people OTHER than MMO gamers to engage in their beta.  If you're trying to reach a large audience then your game had better appeal to people outside of your bubble.

As for the rest of the thread, disgruntled employees are disgruntled.  I think that this is the work of someone on the outside with insider information.  Perhaps someone tangentially related to the process.  Were it someone from the inside, they would be readily identified and shunned banished form the game development community.  I think most people in gaming would like to stay there.  Many because they enjoy the martyrdom status.   

[Arthur_Parker]

Someone needs to tell these game companies how much their products suck. The obvious solution is an F13 mmo consultancy. 

Since it is, to some here, so easy, then why don't we have a private forum set up here where you guys can talk about these ways to innovate for a game like WAR/WoW/EQ/etc.  I'll happily participate as long as three rules are followed: 1) No flaming.  I don't have the time nor inclination for that type of stuff anymore; 2) Any idea posted is posted with an acknowledgment that is given freely to the public domain; 3) That nobody expects me to post everyday or even that I respond to all posts/mail.  Anyone is free to use it, not use it, get credit, not get credit, etc.  I'll tell you this though, any idea that someone posts there that I like and that I pass on to the design team, I'll make sure that the person gets game credit for it as well as WAR swag. So, if you think you have some good ideas but nobody is listening, here's your chance. I've always thought that there are lot of bright people here (as well as some who I would happily put in our of our catapults for a quick one-way trip just as some here would apparently love to do to me) and that's why I've read and occasionally posted here forever (and I post almost nowhere these days).

 

[jakonovski]

Well, I'm sure F13 did eventually tell him how much WAR sucked. Proof of concept complete! 

[IainC]

I don't think it's on Marketing to retain those customers. Unless marketing created Tor Anroc.

That would actually explain a lot, now that I think about it.

Someone is responsible for timing a game's launch. Even if it's someone who doesn't realise that certain phases of MMOland are more supportive to the fumblings of new-born games than other times.

MMOland is dominated by WoW. Well over half of the people playing subscription MMOs in the West are WoW players. These players experience enthusiasm cycles based around WoW's expansions.

So in December most MMO gamers will go back to WoW. Any games launched in October/November will lose lots of people, any games planning to launch in Jan will not sell great numbers.

And developers know this. Even DCUO has recently looked up, saw the headlights of the oncoming truck, squeaked and jumped away from a November 2010 launch.

This wasn't as well known in 2008. In fact MJ seemed to have had the attitude "we're so good we can launch against WoW and beat them". This was a mistake. A marketing mistake. (Marketing with a small m as the decision seems to have come from the top).

After the last launch delay for WAR there was no official release date set (or at least no date that was communicated down to low-level peons such as myself - previous release dates had been announced internally before that). Instead we were in a staring contest with Blizzard over the release date for WotLK, the assumption was that when we announced our date, Blizzard would spike it by announcing theirs to coincide with it. I have no idea if this was true at Blizzard or not but it's certainly what many senior guys believed. So we held off from announcing a firm date for as long as possible until, eventually, a date had to be provided because there are a lot of logistical things around a product launch that you have to do several months out and people who need to be in the loop well in advance. As it happened the WAR press release went out on August 5th announcing the release on September 18th while Blizzard dropped their press release on September 15th with a November 15th launch. Coincidence? You decide.

[Murgos]

Since it is, to some here, so easy, then why don't we have a private forum set up here where you guys can talk about these ways to innovate for a game like WAR/WoW/EQ/etc.  I'll happily participate as long as three rules are followed: 1) No flaming.  I don't have the time nor inclination for that type of stuff anymore; 2) Any idea posted is posted with an acknowledgment that is given freely to the public domain; 3) That nobody expects me to post everyday or even that I respond to all posts/mail.  Anyone is free to use it, not use it, get credit, not get credit, etc.  I'll tell you this though, any idea that someone posts there that I like and that I pass on to the design team, I'll make sure that the person gets game credit for it as well as WAR swag. So, if you think you have some good ideas but nobody is listening, here's your chance. I've always thought that there are lot of bright people here (as well as some who I would happily put in our of our catapults for a quick one-way trip just as some here would apparently love to do to me) and that's why I've read and occasionally posted here forever (and I post almost nowhere these days).

And now I want to say something but I'm not sure I can...

[DraconianOne]

As it happened the WAR press release went out on August 5th announcing the release on September 18th while Blizzard dropped their press release on September 15th with a November 15th launch. Coincidence? You decide.

And then on the 9th October, Turbine announced that the release date for the Mines Of Moria expansion would be 18th November. Maybe they were in on it too.

[NiX]

Indeed.

Stuff I was originally going to post: what happens to Bioware if their 300 million project does the WAR limbo? Could it conceivably affect their own IPs?

They constantly remind everyone that Bioware Austin created the mess and not Edmonton. In true Canadian fashion Bioware Edmonton will apologize for the mess.

[LC]

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't wait to see The Old Republic tank.

[Velorath]

Judging by the other ex-Mythics cropping up in the comments here and there confirming the general thrust if not the tone it sounds more right than wrong.

It doesn't take an insider to know that Mythic had some serious management issues when it came to WAR's development.  Isn't that pretty much the most common cause of clusterfucks like this?  A little research on Moby Games to find out who the management team on this was aside from Jacobs, and any one of us could have written this rant months ago and disguised it as insider info, except we might have taken the time to spell check and proof read it first.  That, and I probably wouldn't have dragged the marketing guy into it.  As was mentioned, the game sold a lot of copies at launch.  All the marketing in the world isn't going to keep people subscribed to a turd though.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I don't think it's on Marketing to retain those customers. Unless marketing created Tor Anroc.

That would actually explain a lot, now that I think about it.

That map still gives me nightmares, the knockbacks!!!

Overall their map & scenario design was just terrible. Contributed to the RvR fail.

Battlegrounds had uninspired scenarios that were just basic CTF game modes, you expect a bit more in a MMORPG, may as well just be playing medal of honor. Tedious (if not punishing like Tor Anroc) map design didn't help either. Open world PvP was even worse with the climax of a siege capture involving those idiotic keep room battles with  the bottleneck being a single staircase, brilliant design.

A PvP centric MMO where the actual PvP was just boring ass poor design is destined to fail. Inferior to WoW, let alone to actually well regarded PvP MMORPG gameplay like in UO, AC or the game they made, DaoC!! To say nothing of a thousand multiplayer action games that are fun and dont want 15$ a month from you.

[HaemishM]

Indeed.

Stuff I was originally going to post: what happens to Bioware if their 300 million project does the WAR limbo? Could it conceivably affect their own IPs?

If that piece of shit Star Wars MMO causes me not to get Mass Effect 3, there will be blood.

[Soln]

this is terrific.  All of it.   

[Ingmar]

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't wait to see The Old Republic tank.

I don't really get this. I can see expecting it to tank, but wanting it to? As gamers we only get these chances at potentially awesome AAA MMOs every so often, we should be rooting for them to succeed.

And that's setting aside the jobs lost, etc., if it does fail.

[sam, an eggplant]

I would vastly prefer a non-diku title like APB or even DDO to explode to show that the market has room for more than just WoW, but since that's not particularly likely at this point in time, I just want to play a great game-- diku or not.

Even if SWTOR is a shitty MMO and you quit upon hitting maxlevel, you're still getting the equivalent of 8 KOTORs in that box.

[Arthur_Parker]

Don't forget the sound.

[DaZog]

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't wait to see The Old Republic tank.

I don't really get this. I can see expecting it to tank, but wanting it to? As gamers we only get these chances at potentially awesome AAA MMOs every so often, we should be rooting for them to succeed.

And that's setting aside the jobs lost, etc., if it does fail.

Part of it might be so when TOR fails and EA carves up and cannibalizes Bioware, there can be the obligatory 'I TOLD YOU SO!' 

[waffel]

Voiceover work in a MMO has about as much interest to me as the length of my character's sideburns.

[sinij]

Someone from the industry, please tell me that somewhere outside of Blizzard there are competent people able and willing to build fun games, and that Blizzard's Mediocrity Principle isn't the only thing to look forward to for the next decade.

[jakonovski]

I think that this iteration is the last chance that big budget MMOs have, nobody's going to try anymore if the next crop withers and dies.

[LC]

I don't really get this. I can see expecting it to tank, but wanting it to? As gamers we only get these chances at potentially awesome AAA MMOs every so often, we should be rooting for them to succeed.

And that's setting aside the jobs lost, etc., if it does fail.

I should be rooting for more successful WoW derivatives when I hated WoW? The "I told you so." is a factor as well.

[Ghambit]

Even if SWTOR is a shitty MMO and you quit upon hitting maxlevel, you're still getting the equivalent of 8 KOTORs in that box.

I played KOTOR 1 time and that was enough for me, as it will be for most people.  Returned it to blockbuster after a nice weekend.
So your statement and mine are the two nutshells that will probably define SWTOR.   Anyone know of a nice PC MMO rental service?

[Merusk]

I don't really get this. I can see expecting it to tank, but wanting it to? As gamers we only get these chances at potentially awesome AAA MMOs every so often, we should be rooting for them to succeed.

And that's setting aside the jobs lost, etc., if it does fail.

I should be rooting for more successful WoW derivatives when I hated WoW? The "I told you so." is a factor as well.

Psycho.

That's a factor too. 

[lamaros]

As gamers we only get these chances at potentially awesome AAA MMOs every so often, we should be rooting for them to succeed.

You think there's any potential in TOR?

Psycho.

[Kageru]

Of course I want SWTOR to tank. It's got all the signs of a lovely train wreck I can savor. Tired, diluted and over-sold IP that the developers still think is an auto-win ticket, immense developer hubris and the budget to match it and (probably) pretty graphics over dull gameplay. Their bizarre assumption that what MMO's really need is lots of cinematic quality VO and a "story" should also make an amusing collapse when it runs into the reality of real MMO players.

I do want MMO's to succeed. But I want it to be a studio that builds their own world, focuses on gameplay, works within their capabilities and isn't EA. And yes, Blizzard actually ticks most of these boxes although it's a close thing on the last one with Activision being almost as bad.

Of course if it does end up being fantastic I can live with that outcome too. However Sturgeon's law and current MMO releases put the odds pretty fairly on selecting a nice viewing position for the impact.

[Ingmar]

Potential? Sure.

Do I think it is likely to be good? That's a different story, but there's certainly potential.

[March]

Oh fark, it must be mid-week then. Time for our regularly scheduled industry drama which should see us well into next week.

What does it mean when dmart smirks at your public airing of grievances?

I'm more curious to learn more about Dawn of Camelot    and when it was cancelled... would explain a lot from the WaR beta where it went from GW2 wannabe to RvR overnight... anyone know?

[Fabricated]

lol, MMO devs are literally children.