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Author Topic: War December Newsletter + Looks like it's coming to a console  (Read 139544 times)
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #35 on: December 27, 2006, 03:02:50 PM

Quote
Just by knowing that I can level off of killing individual players is enough to tell me that their pvp system will be largely based on kills as well (instead of larger goals).

And knowing Mythic, it'll be a pretty slow and hefty grind. PvP based or not. Make no mistake about it. When I see pvp based leveling held up as some kind of great feature, I'm still not impressed -- Because I know Mythic will make it a long, grueling process either way. I'd much rather prefer a game almost exclusively based on PvP and warfare, with as little grinding as possible (i.e. SB, Planetside, Eve to an extent, etc).
I must have played the same PvP mission in Guild Wars 200 times by now, all the while getting faction points that do me little if any good.  But I have fun.  I don't care if the advancement take 5 years if I am out whoopping ass and having fun on day 2.

Now I played the early days of DoAC before "everyone conned yellow" and Mythic seemed to think twenties could RvR even though anyone who could walkout the gate can see that they couldn't.  So, I am bit skeptical they can realistically assess their game but their goals are laudable.  There are probably ton of people like me playing BGs in WoW, making a "like battlegrounds only much more" game to cater to these people is good.  Sure it won't put up WoW numbers but probably better than SB and EvE combined.

Of course counting the number ways EA could fuck this up is enough to keep any gross optimism in check.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 03:48:18 PM by tazelbain »

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #36 on: December 27, 2006, 03:44:38 PM

Two factions is not the middle road though. Nor does it have anything to do with Warhammer, as you yourself admit.

That's stretching my point far beyond what I said and you know it, early WFB versions allowed you to create an army based on a points value and quite often allowed you to choose one or two allied races to add to your army.  The current backstory for having greenskins, dark elves and Chaos on the same side is weak, in fact I'd go so far as to call it crap.  I think they can improve it a lot and as GW write the fiction I don't see it as a major problem to come up with some improve fiction in the next year.  However that's one side, Empire and Dwarfs on the same side is true to the ip, adding Elves isn't much of a stretch for the order side. WHFRP had rules for Dwarfs grouping with Elves.  But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, if they force the six races into 2 sides but have constant slaughter from log in till log out that's a lot more true to the ip than 10 zones for each race with each race doing the same old PVE crap of gathering 20 wolf skins from level 10 wolves that drop a skin 7.5% of the time before you get to the good stuff.

I never said WAR was a flagship pvp game, I believe the general mmorpg trend is going to go towards pvp (pvp better supports player content and everything being equal, a human will generally be more unpredictable and therefore a more interesting opponent than computer AI), WAR is an example of a game that's going to further test that as will Conan etc.  I have said it before but far more people choose a PVP server in WoW than a PVE one, even in the US which has a far greater popularity for PVE than any other region, well over 50% choose a PVP server.

Note, I preferred your post before you went through and edited it, as I didn't really disagree with it.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 03:46:25 PM by Arthur_Parker »
stray
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Reply #37 on: December 27, 2006, 03:49:50 PM

Fair enough to all your points.

As for the editing, I only edited the last sentence. It was dangerous territory.  cool
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #38 on: December 27, 2006, 03:55:33 PM

Well I thought you had changed the line I quoted and added the flagship comment, I must have just missread it earlier.
Daeven
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Reply #39 on: December 27, 2006, 04:35:46 PM

All I know is they are wimping out on the IP until I can play an Ogre Maneater or a Saurus Veteran. You want to make the game stand out from {insert game here}? Take advantage of the wierd shit. Let me and my guild raise start a new clan of Skaven in the sewers of {Random Empire City} and see if we can take it over from the inside. What would be the goal for Clanf13? take over the Human Castle. Once that happens Skaven spawn there instead of humans.

I don't know, it just seems like they could do so much more with this than {generic Fantasy MUD #9084392}.

*shrug*

"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling

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Daeven
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Reply #40 on: December 27, 2006, 04:50:25 PM

And another thing. This whole differentation between PvE and PvP is also idiotic. You want an Empire newbie quest? "Fetch me the ears of ten SKaven". Which ten? Who cares. How do you get them? Buy them. Kill some skaven. Whatever. You want an advanced quest? "Fetch / destroy the warpstone in the Poor Quarter that allows the Clan Rats to breed there" - knowing full well you have to battle your way through spawned CLan Rats, Players, and whatever insanity has been set up to guard it. And, hopefully, that warpstone was put there by Skaven players in the first place.

What's my point? I dunno. These games just seem so... Unambitious? Under realized? Pointless? Small? You could do so much with this genre and none of it is really being done.

Hell. Where is my decent cyberpunk game you bitches?

/whine

"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion
stray
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Reply #41 on: December 27, 2006, 04:56:10 PM

I agree entirely. Why is it that helpless players can be so imaginative with ideas, and those with the power and cash can't? Hell, the first time a friend told me about MMO's, I had a whole slew of ideas and possibilities in my head about what they meant -- and even those first imaginings have yet to be realized.

I'm sick of this story.
tazelbain
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Reply #42 on: December 27, 2006, 06:14:14 PM

Now you are guys are in crazy talk land. I want to use my shield as a cup to drink the blood of my foes.  You can't give everyone a pony.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 08:47:16 AM by tazelbain »

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Daeven
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Reply #43 on: December 28, 2006, 02:27:51 AM

Now you are guys are crazy talk land. I want to my shield as a cup to drink the blood of my foes.  You can't give everyone a pony.

Sorry. We have not implemented collision detection between cups and fluids. Your drink is now on your pants. Have a nice day.

In all seriousness though, what I described above is not 'Impossible'. Nor is it really 'hard'. The biggest limitation has been hardware. And with the diffusion of multi-core pc's it becomes that much more attractive to utilize parallel processing and multi-threading to put some robust AI behind the scenes. You know, that whole marketing thing to separate your Server Side app from Wow and whatnot.

Screw ponies. And flipping fairy ponies with their foo-foo saddles and their unicorn horns. Make. Something. Different. War Elephants with Cannon would be a good start.

Bah. Don't listen to me. I'm just another software developer frightened and confused by my ignorance of the 'games industry'.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 02:48:12 AM by Daeven »

"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling

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Reply #44 on: December 28, 2006, 05:09:33 AM

What about ponies that transform into robots?

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #45 on: December 28, 2006, 05:21:33 AM

In all seriousness though, what I described above is not 'Impossible'. Nor is it really 'hard'. The biggest limitation has been hardware.

I'd say the biggest limitation is the fact that some players don't like it if other players can affect them, we need to get past that and I'd say eventually we are going to see a lot of different server rulesets, maybe not with WAR but it will happen. I don't see any other way to balance a set of players who want to change and affect the virtual world with a set of players that don't want their world affected.

You are right in that nothing you listed above is that difficult, DAoC has different spawned guards when a keep falls, the warpstone thing is just a more involved version of capture the flag.  Buying quest completion items as an alternative to farming is possible for some quests in WoW.  We need more alternative ways to play a game and also the amount of player interaction present needs to be something you can make an informed choice on.

There's an old quote from Mark Jacobs on quests in WAR here.

Quote from: Mark Jacobs
A few rules from my design:

1) No time-sink quests of any kind. If the only way we can generate enough content for players to feel like they are getting good value for this game is to force them to spend hours and hours running from point a to point b to point c and then bake to a or to mindlessly kill 1000 NPCs, then we have failed to create a great next-gen MMORPG.

2) Quests, whenever possible (and the exceptions to this rule must be fore really unique and interesting quests), must tie in tightly the backstory and WH IP

3) No kill 100s creatures to get an item with a 0.01% drop rate (I think my doc also mentioned a quick trip to a very hot fire for anyone who created such quests)

We have spent a ton of time so far getting the quests off the ground in the right way as well as coming uop with a lot more types of quests (in my book killing 1PC to get an item = kill 100 NPCs to get an item, they don't count as separate quest types).

I have no idea if that's all changed now that EA is involved or if he's just hyping the game.  Fargull's comment on slow character movement speed isn't a good sign, as that does seem to contradict the spirit of the no time sinks comment.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 05:36:58 AM by Arthur_Parker »
Simond
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Reply #46 on: December 28, 2006, 06:20:48 AM

Sorry. We have not implemented collision detection between cups and fluids. Your drink is now on your pants. Have a nice day.
I have dropped my cup of blood on the floor.

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Reply #47 on: December 28, 2006, 08:44:57 AM

I have no idea if that's all changed now that EA is involved or if he's just hyping the game.  Fargull's comment on slow character movement speed isn't a good sign, as that does seem to contradict the spirit of the no time sinks comment.

I hope I was just not getting it when I got to take over the drivers seat.  The only comparison I had was either to Burning Crusade (which was also on demo) or Pirates of the Burning Sea.  Both of those felt quicker in avatar movement (in person in port with Pirates) than WAR.  Now, WAR did look nice, much more brutal in its character than WOW.

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eldaec
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Reply #48 on: December 28, 2006, 08:47:10 AM

Quote
3) No kill 100s creatures to get an item with a 0.01% drop rate (I think my doc also mentioned a quick trip to a very hot fire for anyone who created such quests)

Which is nice so long as stupid long spawn timers aren't used instead.

Queuing to kill something isn't heroic.

For ref, see ToA.

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Nonentity
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Reply #49 on: December 28, 2006, 09:41:14 AM

Quote
3) No kill 100s creatures to get an item with a 0.01% drop rate (I think my doc also mentioned a quick trip to a very hot fire for anyone who created such quests)

Which is nice so long as stupid long spawn timers aren't used instead.

Queuing to kill something isn't heroic.

For ref, see ToA.

I'd like to think that since they actually made classic servers where they disabled ToA/Buffbots, they got the point that people didn't actually like it.

But that Captain's salami tray was tight, yo. You plump for the roast pork loin, dogg?

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Sunbury
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Reply #50 on: December 28, 2006, 10:37:12 AM

Someday, I'd like to see some MMORPG (not *all* MMORPGs) also have the quest rule:

  The quest must make logical sense in a multiplayer game.   If there is a quest for some named mob deep somewhere that drops some uber sword, that can happen one time per server!  Otherwise something must explain / trigger that mob rezzing and getting another uber sword.   So one could say that would be horrible, its been tried, one time quests suck - etc - of course that is true.  So what that means is DONT EVEN ADD A QUEST TYPE LIKE THAT!

Figure out a system to generate quests based on the evolving state of the world, state of NPCs etc.   Mines being opened, maybe then later randomly flooded or collapsed or recaptured and have to be reopened.   If a party takes a quest, maybe that NPC only offers it to N more parties, but warns the others they have it and the first one done gets the prize.   All quests have timers if appropriate.

Oh yeah, also no friggen mobs respawning while I'm standing there, please someone invent something else.

I do not want *ALL* MMORGS to work that way, I just want *ONE* someday to try it.  Hell, I may even hate it if developed, esp when I just feel like killing crap and wanting it to respawn so I can kill it again.
Daeven
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Reply #51 on: December 28, 2006, 11:44:48 AM

I'd say the biggest limitation is the fact that some players don't like it if other players can affect them, we need to get past that
I'd restate this is more most players don't like not knowing who can effect them when.

If you *know* that all Skaven are fair game, then no biggie. Avoid Skaven if you don't want to deal with them. It's that other human right over there with their 8 friends who may or may not attack you at any moment because they feel like it that annoys people.


You are right in that nothing you listed above is that difficult, DAoC has different spawned guards when a keep falls, the warpstone thing is just a more involved version of capture the flag.
As long as you realize I'm talking about the entire city, the surrounding territory and everything else being the 'flag' or a Zone of Control, and not just a preset location that is fought over (the relic of Zimblewatt will be HERE).

What is dynamic? Your starting 'home' city getting overrun by orcs and you having to build another one some where else.

And no more quests in which Fred the Baker will always and in perpetuity need a foozle from everyone who asks. If he's out of flour then have him offer to pay for more flour. You know, that whole needs based engine thingy again. Supply and demand. Scarcity.

Such a project would be *fun* to work on. And I think that would show in the end result.

"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion
MarkJacobs
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Reply #52 on: December 28, 2006, 07:28:47 PM

Folks,

   Hey all.  Just some quick replies:

1) I'm also frustrated with the current state of MMOs.  I think we *all* can do a lot better in the future than we are doing today.  WAR is not intended to be Generic MMO # nor is it meant to be THE ONE GAME THAT CHALLENGES EVERYTHING AND MAKES YOU ITS  B****!  My jumping off point for it was the same as for DAoC, evolutionary game with some revolutionary features.  Hopefully, there will be enough really cool stuff to get people excited but only time will tell.  Truly revolutionary games will, as always, most likely be done by small studios, with small budgets and not by large companies, with large budgets and teams, much like the film industry.  There are exceptions of course but as the budgets rise to heights that they have, the harder it is to get backing for something both revolutionary and expensive.  That's one reason I've always thought and spoken highly of guys who do games like ATITD and Puzzle Pirates.  Maybe one day I'll get to do a truly revolutionary game (I/Mythic) never had the chance in the past and prior to Mythic, getting money to do any online game was unbelievably difficult (as opposed to just incredibly difficult for Mythic), but I would like the shot at it sometime.  Who knows, if WAR succeeds, maybe we get a shot at the title...

2) EA has not involved itself in the game design of WAR in any way whatsoever to date.  I know you guys will find this hard to believe but so far, EA's involvement in WAR has been only positive.  We've gotten a larger budget, access to top technical resources (guys, gals and guides), lots of new hires (people aren't as afraid of moving to Va. anymore and there are lots of people at EA who have been waiting to work on a MMO)  and even more attention from the media.  I'm not saying that everything is perfect but it wasn't perfect when Mythic was an independent and so far, the acquisition has been a net positive for Mythic and for WAR.

3) As far as good ideas, we have always talked and listened to the community.  Sometimes we heard the wrong thing, sometimes we listened to the wrong part of the community and sometimes we got it right.  It's a lot harder than anyone who hasn't been through the mill a few times thinks to design, balance and then maintain these games but we will never stop talking and listening.  It was for this reason we started WAR's beta test months ago and are getting lots of feedback from hundreds of EA employees.  Since it is, to some here, so easy, then why don't we have a private forum set up here where you guys can talk about these ways to innovate for a game like WAR/WoW/EQ/etc.  I'll happily participate as long as three rules are followed: 1) No flaming.  I don't have the time nor inclination for that type of stuff anymore; 2) Any idea posted is posted with an acknowledgment that is given freely to the public domain; 3) That nobody expects me to post everyday or even that I respond to all posts/mail.  Anyone is free to use it, not use it, get credit, not get credit, etc.  I'll tell you this though, any idea that someone posts there that I like and that I pass on to the design team, I'll make sure that the person gets game credit for it as well as WAR swag. So, if you think you have some good ideas but nobody is listening, here's your chance. I've always thought that there are lot of bright people here (as well as some who I would happily put in our of our catapults for a quick one-way trip just as some here would apparently love to do to me) and that's why I've read and occasionally posted here forever (and I post almost nowhere these days).

4) I can also tell you that are intent is not to clone WoW or even do WoW 1.5.  For some, that is hard to believe I know but that's the last thing I would want to do for the same reason that I haven't put a DAoC 2.0 into production.  And let me tell you, given how many DAoC fans there are at EA, if I wanted to score brownie points with the new bosses, that would have been the first thing I did after the acquisition.  I want WAR to stand on its own feet and have its own shot at fame/fortune.  We're not looking to get WoW sub numbers and that means we don't have to do some things that would make the game more like WoW to achieve those numbers.  WAR will be WAR and if anything, it will draw on DAoC more than WoW. 

5) We have lots of new stuff that we will be talking about by the summer of 2007 that will show some of the different directions we are going in then some of the current MMOs.  The nature of this industry is way to competitive and derivative to talk about them this early in the process and I've instructed marketing, design and community not to talk about them until much later in the process.  I know this may sound like "Secret Tester Version and Features!" from some other games but it isn't.  We'll talk about them when we can ensure that they appear in our game before somebody else's game.

6) And no, there will not be RMTs in WAR, that was one of my ground rules going into the acquisition and EA, to their credit, didn't want to see them in this game either.  Just thought I would make this point again.

So, Happy New Year to all and to all, a good knight.  :)

Mark
stray
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Reply #53 on: December 28, 2006, 07:38:06 PM


3) So, if you think you have some good ideas but nobody is listening, here's your chance. I've always thought that there are lot of bright people here (as well as some who I would happily put in our of our catapults for a quick one-way trip just as some here would apparently love to do to me) and that's why I've read and occasionally posted here forever (and I post almost nowhere these days).

One way trip to where exactly? ;)

I'm game though. If anything, as a spectator.
angry.bob
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Reply #54 on: December 28, 2006, 08:29:43 PM

A private forum would be great. Having thought most of ToA was a bad idea and having no place to post about it other than the Vault depresses me. If one is set up, count me in and I promise to be on my best behavior. So I'll only curse at HROSE.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
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Reply #55 on: December 28, 2006, 08:31:04 PM

When I start hearing about people in the beta.

Ya know.
Venkman
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Reply #56 on: December 28, 2006, 09:11:44 PM

A nice gauntlet throwdown there Mark, but why does it need to be a private forum? Or, put another way: who gets invited? I only ask because since the result is ideas entered into the public domain anyway, why close the doors?

As an aside, WAR seems to be shaping up nicely, and mostly based on decisions made well before EA took over anyway. I can see why people fear the takeover by the oligarchy. But given EA's history with MMOs, I think it only logical they'd let one already well under way continue as it was.

Real entirely-PvP-based advancement in a system open to casuals. Sorta like WoW BGs. Some might disagree but I can make meaningful progress towards gear just doing PUGs in BGs much more fluidly than ensuring I can attend 6 hours of scheduled raids a week. Seems like WAR may have that based on what's out there about it. Not sure when it's launching, but that, Conan and PotBS top my 2007 list.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 09:16:12 PM by Darniaq »
Typhon
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Reply #57 on: December 28, 2006, 09:38:58 PM

Unless your game can auto-shift masses of people to the other faction (which would imply fucking over guilds, which would imply people lighting themselves on fire and storming VA), start worrying about realm balance NOW.  Instances are great for even battles, but queues blow.  (giving the user some indication about population balance and a clear warning that joining a realm with an imbalance might not be so much fun FROM THE START might be enough to ease this problem)
angry.bob
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Reply #58 on: December 28, 2006, 09:55:14 PM

A nice gauntlet throwdown there Mark, but why does it need to be a private forum? Or, put another way: who gets invited? I only ask because since the result is ideas entered into the public domain anyway, why close the doors?

I'd hazard that the reason is that if it's even just viewable by the general public, the minute there's a board he reads and responds to, the signal to noise ratio will nosedive and become useless. It should be private, you just shouldn't have to be in the beta. Set something up like Lord Beta and let the admins decide whether you're going to contribute or if it's just someone off the street looking to bitch about precasting and whatnot.

But yeah, balance needs to be the concern first and foremost. Two sides makes that easier, not harder though. Good vs Evil wise, I think populations won't be as lopsided as they have been in other games though. The the Greenskin side has s3xx0r elves and chaos to offset the normally larger segment who just want to play a normal human or good elf.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
MarkJacobs
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Reply #59 on: December 28, 2006, 10:01:35 PM

Darniaq,

   As to why I would prefer it private, simply for ease of moderation and control of flames.  Like I said, I just don't have time for that stuff anymore.  As far as I'm concerned, anybody is welcome who wants to chat or even be a spectator but if it's open, it is more than likely it will devolve more quickly into the thing I don't want any part of.  At least by having it private, people to ask for access to it.  I start posting regularly somewhere and then the usual BS starts there unless the Mods really crack down on it.  I didn't want to ask the guys here to have to put that much effort into policing the topic.

   In terms of when WAR launches, our schedule is unchanged, Q4 2007.  Right now we are on schedule but I'll know more after this first round of internal EA beta is finished.  At the point we'll have a really good idea of when we stand in terms of the existing content as well as some of the new game systems we're currently working on.  FYI, so far so good.  No server crashes, lots of playtime used by the testers and we are getting some good intel for client optimizations.  We are so far ahead of where we were at this same point with DAoC that we are pretty happy.

   In terms of PvP advancement, that was one of the things I wish I had thought more of for DAoC.  Our reasoning at the time was to build the communities through PvE advancement at lower levels so that people would have a chance to form friendships, groups, guilds and then they could go into PvP with experience with the game and lots of support.  I still believe it made sense back in 2001 and I worry that cradle-to-grave, PvP advancement systems in a hybrid game might work against the building of communities in a new game.  Obviously, time will tell.

   As far as it shaping up nicely, I agree.  While it too is not perfect, the team is really doing a great job on it and frankly, we have surprised a lot of the EA by not only meeting our schedules but by the sheer amount of game we have churned out in such a short amount of time.  Throw in lots of love from GW and all is right in WAR these days.

Schild,

   Yeap, I know. :)

Stray,

   Spectators welcome as per above.


Mark
MarkJacobs
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Mythic Entertainment


Reply #60 on: December 28, 2006, 10:08:39 PM

Typhon,

   Not only do I agree with you but that has been one of our biggest concerns from Day 1 and it remains so today.  It's easily one of the trickiest problems in hybrid MMORPG design, especially one like WAR which we want to be a RvR-centric game.  We'll have to see how things turn out once the servers are turned on.  This is one of those issues that even a long beta won't necessarily point out the flaws in our design-making.

Angry.bob,

   Bingo on both.

Mark
Johny Cee
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Reply #61 on: December 28, 2006, 11:10:59 PM

But yeah, balance needs to be the concern first and foremost. Two sides makes that easier, not harder though. Good vs Evil wise, I think populations won't be as lopsided as they have been in other games though. The the Greenskin side has s3xx0r elves and chaos to offset the normally larger segment who just want to play a normal human or good elf.

I agree with two sides making balance easier.  In DAoC (and I've been subbed continually since a couple months after release...) with three realms:  one would be dominant,  one would be fiesty underdog,  and one would be the bitch.  Since population is divided more ways and you're all aggro to each other,  much smaller gradients in population difference led to mass dominance by the strongest side over the weakest side,  while the midposition faction did alright even if they lost more than won.


The one piece of advice I'd give has already been recognized as a problem by Mythic:  The danger of massive specialization in jobs.

Massive specialization creates "bottleneck" classes/archetypes,  that are a requirement for groups and to compete.  The evolution of the gank guild owes alot to the fact that you needed to secure your access to good/skilled players of a few select archetypes in your groups,  or you couldn't play the game and have fun.

I can't count the number of hours I sat outside a portal keep spamming "looking for bard" or "looking for druid" (insert healer/cleric/good sorceror/etc for other realms),  because to leave without one was pointless.  When I was pretty active RvRing,  I knew exactly who the competant non-gank guild bards and druids in my realm were because securing a couple was the only way your PUG had even an outside chance.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #62 on: December 28, 2006, 11:12:31 PM

> This is one of those issues that even a long beta won't necessarily point out the flaws in our design-making.
But if you go live without restrictions, you can't add them later if you need them without alienately a portion of players.  Kinda like Buffbots Mob

"Me am play gods"
Arthur_Parker
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Internet Detective


Reply #63 on: December 29, 2006, 02:53:23 AM

If there's going to be a WAR closed forum I'd like to contribute.
Typhon
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Reply #64 on: December 29, 2006, 06:52:41 AM

Two sides easier then three+
I agree if there is no game mechanism to enforce diplomacy.  For example: if side B and C agree to game up for a period of time against A, a truce could be effected that would prevent rabid player B(n) from attacking rabid player C(n) during a critical battle where B and C were attacking A... which I kind of like, because it allows the server population itself to determine the appropriate balance.  Course this raises the difficult question of who is in charge of diplomacy for each side (doesn't seem like it would be an easy design/coding job)

Givie the player enough info to not screw themselves/the server
If, during character creation, I (the player) could see the population balance for any particular server, and I could see (in the character creation screen) the negative side-effects of creating a character of a particular realm on a server with a population imbalance towards that realm, I'd choose to create a player/guild on a realm with a more even distribution.  I've got to believe that the number of folks that would create a character on a server where they would end up being personally weaker/have longer queue times would be the extreme minority.

I'm not saying figuring out how to show the player that information would be easy (it couldn't be just straight chars generated, it should overtime weight in average play time more and more heavily), I'm just saying it will help blunt server imbalance.
eldaec
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Reply #65 on: December 29, 2006, 07:32:05 AM

I agree that 2 realms makes balance easier (though it also makes comparisons easier so players may feel more aggreived). I'm just not sure it's worth the cost.

In the end I think you have to look at systems which push the losing side back onto more favourable ground anyway. ie. if Dwarfs lose regularly the front line is pushed back to a place where Dwarfs have advantages in terms of npcs or landscape features (choke points that favour the side pushing south or whatever).




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Modern Angel
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Reply #66 on: December 29, 2006, 07:48:33 AM

If there's going to be a WAR closed forum I'd like to contribute.

I'd like to be in, as well. I'm too much of a Warhammer nerd to do otherwise.
MarkJacobs
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Mythic Entertainment


Reply #67 on: December 29, 2006, 08:40:00 AM

Tazelbain,

   Agreed.  You'll be happy to know that "No Buffbots" was part of my design document for WAR and they will not be part of the game.  That was one of the mistakes/issues we could have handled a lot better and it is a lesson learned.  We at Mythic make our share of mistakes but we try really hard not to repeat them.


Mark
Venkman
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Reply #68 on: December 29, 2006, 09:03:58 AM

Thanks for the responses Mark!

I appreciate the insights on PvP advancement. I didn't care back in 01-02 when I was in DAoC because I was fresh off of EQ. "PvP" back then seemed defined by those spamming the Shadowbane forums and those watching :)

Quote from: MarkJacobs
This is one of those issues that even a long beta won't necessarily point out the flaws in our design-making.

Have you any planned contingencies you could discuss to ensure faction balance isn't a huge problem for players? I personally don't feel full disclosure to new players on the front end helps much, because the moment it matters most is within the first month or so of launch when everything's up in the air anyway. New players will always come to the game, and there'll be spikes for expansions and big patches. But the bulk of a server's society/social-personality seems based on those that first come. Everyone later is joining built servers already while veterans chase new server launches.

imho anyway.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #69 on: December 29, 2006, 09:17:43 AM

Have you any planned contingencies you could discuss to ensure faction balance isn't a huge problem for players?
DD busts and thong armor should only be available to the underpopulated realm. (yes, I know Mythic doesn't pander this way)

"Me am play gods"
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