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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  League of Legends  |  Topic: Balance 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Balance  (Read 5843 times)
Astorax
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Posts: 154


Reply #35 on: October 07, 2010, 04:24:24 PM

Garen was unarguably OP before his most recent nerf (even minor) to his W skill.  He could become virtually unkillable while still dealing good dmg with sunfires and spin.  With his nerf to W he's still killable without other forms of defense (thornmail, force of nature, etc).  You can't just stack sunfires and profit like you could before his most recent nerf.

There's definitely a factor of metagame involved, but there's also blatant imbalance in certain heroes.  Eve has been widely considered to be the weakest character for most of the game's lifetime.  Her recent redo is probably going to go a bit too far the other direction, and then they'll swing back to the middle somewhere where she really belongs...it's the nature of the beast with this genre.
Kail
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Reply #36 on: October 07, 2010, 05:32:37 PM

There's definitely a factor of metagame involved, but there's also blatant imbalance in certain heroes.

The imbalance is tied to the metagame, though.  Garen with a bunch of Sunfires is almost exactly the same as any other champ with a bunch of Sunfires.  What makes Garen so badass?  The fact that he's maybe 10% better at AoE DPS than, say, Sunfire Amumu or Sunfire Mordekaiser, combined with the current AoE heavy state of the metagame.  If we weren't currently looking at a game where AoE heavy teams were popular, Garen would be nothing.  If you tune Garen down to keep him from overshadowing Sunfire Udyr or whatever, then when things shift away from AoE strategies, Garen is going to be useless.

It doesn't matter what the dominant strategy is, some champ is ALWAYS going to be better at it than all the others.  Nerfing Garen has only moved champs like Sona or Fortune to the top of the pack.
Thrawn
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Reply #37 on: October 07, 2010, 05:42:42 PM

What makes Garen so badass?

His low level damage in lane, his silence, his chase and his passive.  Ohhhhh, I see.

(but yes, Garen is good largely on the meta of hard to kill teams and long fights)

*edit* Oh yeah, his ult is good too.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 06:29:00 PM by Thrawn »

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #38 on: October 07, 2010, 05:44:30 PM

Essentially that. The real problem with Garen is his passive and ult are both pretty fucking stupid, in fact all his skills are fairly stupid and he's a no skill faceroll champ. He will probably never reach a great level of balance as a result. Then again, Riot accomplished good balance with Twitch who sounds retarded on paper (stealth + long range + aoe high damage ult) after a ton of trial and error so there is some hope.

That is from my perspective that the ideal level of balance are champs like Anivia, Gragas, Poppy, Nidalee, Singed, Trist etc. etc. where someone who knows the champ well can do smart stuff with them and the champ is viable in the right meta, team comp and match up but not some S-Tier auto-ban monstrosity.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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PkProjects
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Reply #39 on: October 07, 2010, 06:04:35 PM

That is from my perspective that the ideal level of balance are champs like Anivia, Gragas, Poppy, Nidalee, Singed, Trist etc. etc. where someone who knows the champ well can do smart stuff with them and the champ is viable in the right meta, team comp and match up but not some S-Tier auto-ban monstrosity.

So, could you supply us with a list of champions you think are at the ideal level of balance? (Other people can also give their list, just wondering)

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Hoax
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Reply #40 on: October 07, 2010, 08:03:53 PM

Its really any champ that isn't S-Tier ridiculous by way of something beyond just the current meta and I'm very hesitant to claim that any champs currently fit that. Going off the most overused and over quoted tier list gives us nothing really to complain about:

Quote
Tier 1: Galio, Morgana, Amumu, Ashe, Sona, Garen, Warwick, Kog'Maw, Janna, Anivia, Annie, Taric, Shen

None of those champions are hideously broken and the picks are obvious merely the result of metagaming excepting possibly Garen & Kog (who I will get to) who don't fit the patterns quite as obviously. I think if they reduced Garen's silent by a tiny amount though Garen would over time drop out of the top lineups because their are better anti-carries, better cc'ers or better off tanks for aoe teams. The rest of that list is all there because they a) have awesome cc, usually the type of cc that can initiate a fight. The other exception is Kog, who just happens to be the best ranged right click damage you can buy which happens to make him the best feed me and protect me to win the game champ which means ofc he is top tier. But that hardly makes him disgustingly broken.

Historically speaking Ezreal was for sure SSS-Tier, Shaco and Garen are both much more debatable and nothing else recently comes to mind. Going in the wayback machine Blitz with 3.5 sec silence, the two times Jax was unkillable and Trynd for 15minutes are obvious picks. Kog Maw when his attack speed was being multiplied would probably qualify as that was ridiculous and you could pretty much baron @ 15min regardless of team comp if you had Kog w/ Razor. The pattern you notice there is most of those champs (besides Kog & Blitz) could basically win fights by themselves for free. I don't think anyone in the current cast does that.

I don't have balance issues w/ LoL. My complaints have always been more along the following lines:
-That Riot has not delivered on the promise to create less simplistic champions and instead create champs that would take individual skill and decision making to maximize.
-That newer champs are much stronger at levels 1-5 than the original champions due to base stats and/or level one ability damage.
-That they are too quick to nerf then nerf again in sequential patches, I think historically this has led to many champs ending up weaker than they needed to be to achieve balance.
-Too many tiny tweaks too often, as others have said in this thread.

But all of this except the first point falls by the wayside considering how balanced I think the game currently is which means clearly Riot has a track record of doing shit well.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
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