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Author Topic: Balance  (Read 6631 times)
PkProjects
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Posts: 16


on: October 03, 2010, 03:21:55 AM

First of all, I'm new here, so hi.

I've been playing LoL for a while now, and I just found this forum.
My question is, do you think the game is balanced?
As I love playing characters as Jax and Yi, they are too easily owned by tanky characters, as their damage output does not scale with their HP.
In addition, fast ranged characters like TF can just harass anyone who's not ranged and just run away, you'd have to really gank up to beat such a champion.
That's where my second question comes in.
Am I the only one that thinks Twisted Treeline is unbalanced?

Thanks,
Pk.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 10:09:03 AM by PkProjects »

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Kail
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Reply #1 on: October 03, 2010, 01:30:37 PM

My question is, do you think the game is balanced?

With regard to champions, there are two ways a champ can be unbalanced.

First, they can be too strong.  This breaks the game.  Every player basically has to be good at that champ, in order for their team comp to be strong in case he's not banned, and it puts the first ban team at a disadvantage.  I don't think LoL has any of these champs right now, and when they do, they generally bring them in line fairly quickly.

Second, they can be too weak.  This doesn't break the game,  since there are enough champs that no matter how crazy the bans are, you're not going to be forced to play Jax or something.  In my opinion, LoL does have a few of these champs.  Evelynn, Yi, Teemo, maybe Urgot (not sure, haven't played him myself) are all fairly pointless.

But overall, I think the game is pretty well balanced.  If anything, I'm kind of annoyed that Riot is constantly tweaking eveything about every champ, I wish they'd just say "THERE, done, it's balanced" and let the metagame evolve around it rather than trying to react to the metagame while the metagame reacts to them.  And even with the underpowered characters, it's not like they're useless, there are still people who play Evelynn at high levels, it's just harder to do well than other champs.

With regards to Twisted Treeline, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "unbalanced".  Do you mean that certain champs are imbalanced on the map, or the map favors one team over the other, or that some particular style of play is rewarded while another is not?  I haven't really played enough of Treeline to be an expert on how well balanced it is, but I don't expect that all the champs are going to be equally powerful across both maps.

edit: first pick -> first ban
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 01:53:50 PM by Kail »
Hoax
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Reply #2 on: October 03, 2010, 02:36:50 PM

The game is balanced very well, rediculously well considering the genre, the size of the cast and how fast they are expanding it and the fact that summoner skills and masteries add additional layers of potential imbalance.

Treeline is a secondary map, Riot has gone on record saying that they will favor maintaining a good power level on summoner's rift over making changes to improve TT champ balance. Therefore it should be expected that less champs will be viable on TT.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Ragnoros
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Reply #3 on: October 03, 2010, 04:57:15 PM

What Hoax said. Beyond that...

Yes, we all know you love Yi and Jax and all the other crappy melee DPS heroes. For the love of Zeus stop playing them. Play Annie and blow people up, play Taric and support your team, play Rammus and abuse taunt, but please, don't play Jax, your team does not need a fourth melee DPS hero (or one for that matter).
/rant

Fake Edit: Ok, play whatever you like. But know that it takes a lot more skill and teamwork for melee champs to be effective. Good casters, support, tanks, and ranged dps fit in nearly any team.

Owls are an example of evolution showing off. -Shannow

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Thrawn
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Reply #4 on: October 03, 2010, 05:04:07 PM

Sadly Ragnoros is correct, while as a whole the game is very well balanced some champs just aren't very good right now.  Jax is near the bottom of that list if not the bottom (even though he was face-rape-overpowered-awsome not too long ago), and Yi isn't going to be real far above that.  If you want to play them thats fine, to each their own.  I get on a Tryndamre kick from time to time myself much to Hoax's eternal hatred. But don't expect to get above a low ELO and please, please, please don't ever pick them in a ranked game.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 05:05:41 PM by Thrawn »

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
kubodhi
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Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 09:27:55 PM

As I love playing characters as Jax and Yi, they are too easily owned by tanky characters, as their damage output does not scale with their HP.
You're right that his damage doesn't scale with his HP, but his HP does scale with his damage.
Quote from: Riot Games
Equipment Mastery - Jax's prowess with weapons and armor increase his fortitude as he gains equipment:
Jax gains 3 health per point of Attack Damage received from items.
Jax gains 2 health per point of Ability Power received from items.
Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Am I the only one that thinks Twisted Treeline is unbalanced?
Heroes that have a passwall/jump escape (i.e. Shaco, Shen, Tristana, Kassadin etc) seem to have better luck at getting away on TT, at least in my experience.  The narrower lanes with thinner treelines seem to favor intelligent (ab)use of those abilities.  Otherwise, though, I think the answers that have been provided are pretty spot on.

Typhon
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Reply #6 on: October 04, 2010, 06:46:27 AM

The game is balanced very well, rediculously well considering the genre, the size of the cast and how fast they are expanding it and the fact that summoner skills and masteries add additional layers of potential imbalance.

Treeline is a secondary map, Riot has gone on record saying that they will favor maintaining a good power level on summoner's rift over making changes to improve TT champ balance. Therefore it should be expected that less champs will be viable on TT.

The corollary to this is: TT will make you tighten your build on champs and make you give up champs that only excel at the end game.  If a champ can't compete at least by mid-game there is no use bringing him to TT (I think Jax fits solidly in this camp, but possibly/probably that's just because I suck with Jax).
Thrawn
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Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 07:38:28 AM

The corollary to this is: TT will make you tighten your build on champs and make you give up champs that only excel at the end game.  If a champ can't compete at least by mid-game there is no use bringing him to TT (I think Jax fits solidly in this camp, but possibly/probably that's just because I suck with Jax).

I don't play or follow TT at all myself, but I know it's a very different meta.  Mundo for instance is pretty much never picked in 5v5 ranked, but as I understand it he's pick number 1 in TT if he's not banned.  So it's perfectly possible Jax is good in TT.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
PkProjects
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Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 04:49:15 PM

Heroes that have a passwall/jump escape (i.e. Shaco, Shen, Tristana, Kassadin etc) seem to have better luck at getting away on TT, at least in my experience.  The narrower lanes with thinner treelines seem to favor intelligent (ab)use of those abilities.  Otherwise, though, I think the answers that have been provided are pretty spot on.

And the fact that they can stand in between your turrets without getting hit by either one of them allows characters such as vlad to finish you off while barely risking a death.
When I said their damage doesn't scale with their hp, I meant in comparison with the tanks. I'm pretty knowledgeable of all the characters skills, but thanks for the info.

Also, I have near 90% wins while playing Yi on TT, which is the only map I play non-ranked. On 5v5 ranked I only pick Yi when there's no junglers, which is.. close to never. The point I'm trying to make is, don't just judge on the way you play the champions, every character can be good when played by someone skilled enough.
But take for instance Mordekaiser, on TT he's almost impossible to beat if he's played by a player who's brains are not up their ass.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Phunked
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Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 07:00:25 PM

Heroes that have a passwall/jump escape (i.e. Shaco, Shen, Tristana, Kassadin etc) seem to have better luck at getting away on TT, at least in my experience.  The narrower lanes with thinner treelines seem to favor intelligent (ab)use of those abilities.  Otherwise, though, I think the answers that have been provided are pretty spot on.

And the fact that they can stand in between your turrets without getting hit by either one of them allows characters such as vlad to finish you off while barely risking a death.
When I said their damage doesn't scale with their hp, I meant in comparison with the tanks. I'm pretty knowledgeable of all the characters skills, but thanks for the info.

Also, I have near 90% wins while playing Yi on TT, which is the only map I play non-ranked. On 5v5 ranked I only pick Yi when there's no junglers, which is.. close to never. The point I'm trying to make is, don't just judge on the way you play the champions, every character can be good when played by someone skilled enough.
But take for instance Mordekaiser, on TT he's almost impossible to beat if he's played by a player who's brains are not up their ass.

Why do you post? This is the exact opposite of what you posted in the OT, which basically suggested that certain champs aren't good enough. You then proceed to...point out that in fact, a good player can play any champion correctly?

Was your point to simply enlighten us all as to how amazing you are with an underpowered champ? Because if so, great success!
Thrawn
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Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 07:07:35 PM

The point I'm trying to make is, don't just judge on the way you play the champions, every character can be good when played by someone skilled enough.

Which is why it's ok to play champions at lower levels and if you are just playing for fun, you might "out-skill" your opponents.  At higher level play and ranked games where it is more likely people are on an even skill level taking characters like Yi and Jax as they currently are is hurting your teams potential.  A very skilled team of Eve/Trynd/Yi/Jax/Urgot would still probably loose to a decently skilled team of Morgana/Garen/Fortune/Amumu/Kogmaw.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 07:11:22 PM by Thrawn »

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
PkProjects
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Reply #11 on: October 06, 2010, 09:20:28 AM

Heroes that have a passwall/jump escape (i.e. Shaco, Shen, Tristana, Kassadin etc) seem to have better luck at getting away on TT, at least in my experience.  The narrower lanes with thinner treelines seem to favor intelligent (ab)use of those abilities.  Otherwise, though, I think the answers that have been provided are pretty spot on.

And the fact that they can stand in between your turrets without getting hit by either one of them allows characters such as vlad to finish you off while barely risking a death.
When I said their damage doesn't scale with their hp, I meant in comparison with the tanks. I'm pretty knowledgeable of all the characters skills, but thanks for the info.

Also, I have near 90% wins while playing Yi on TT, which is the only map I play non-ranked. On 5v5 ranked I only pick Yi when there's no junglers, which is.. close to never. The point I'm trying to make is, don't just judge on the way you play the champions, every character can be good when played by someone skilled enough.
But take for instance Mordekaiser, on TT he's almost impossible to beat if he's played by a player who's brains are not up their ass.

Why do you post? This is the exact opposite of what you posted in the OT, which basically suggested that certain champs aren't good enough. You then proceed to...point out that in fact, a good player can play any champion correctly?

Was your point to simply enlighten us all as to how amazing you are with an underpowered champ? Because if so, great success!

I guess it's my fault for not being completely clear.
I'm saying that on normal games, anyone with a higher level of skill can be good with the not-decent characters. But if there's someone who's on the same skill as you are, playing a better character, it's still unfair. So you have to have a better skill level when playing the lower characters to be able to play with them. Which is why there's only a select group of champions you'll encounter high ELO ranked.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Typhon
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Reply #12 on: October 06, 2010, 09:47:29 AM

[...] Which is why there's only a select group of champions you'll encounter high ELO ranked.

It's just the nature of balance in games with non-homogeneous sides.  It is what it is.  It will change over time and eventually Yi or Jax will be boosted a bit and you can be happy again.  Warwick used to pretty much suck, for instance.

on a different note:

I like the concept of one "Champions" thread, instead of creating a different thread for each champion.  Might want to start a new thread through and rename this one to "Balance?", as that seems to be more representative of the thread/topic.
PkProjects
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Reply #13 on: October 06, 2010, 10:08:31 AM

So, you'd like to have a topic with all cons and pro's to each champion or something like that? And I'll rename this one.

But again, if they'd get boosted, that would mean they're not good enough right now, thus leaving the game unbalanced.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Typhon
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Reply #14 on: October 06, 2010, 10:35:39 AM

If you focus on a champ that you feel is under-performing it's easy to say, "they aren't good enough".  Especially when you compare them against a particular type of Champ - in this case, you're comparing them to tanks.  How do Jax and Yi fare against dps casters?  Seems to me that they rip their faces off (especially Jax).  So they can't initiate and they can't go toe-to-toe with a tank.  That in certain circumstances they need to play more opportunistically seems like a "join the club" situation.

If you look at the meta game, how teams are being constructed, I don't think it's so simple.  How much has Yi really changed since launch?  In the lower tiers (MY tier, as I like to call it), Yi is still a beast.  In the higher tiers, apparently not so much.  Why is Yi no longer a top-teir champ?  Have they added new items that significantly counter Yi?  Has team construction changed to counter a more simplistic (Yi) playstyle? 

With multiple things changing at any one given point in time, the fact that almost any given Champ can dominate a game says to me that they have done a good job with the balance.
PkProjects
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Reply #15 on: October 06, 2010, 11:16:40 AM

No, caster DPS vs melee DPS is just a matter of who hits first. And both of them stand nearly no chance to a tank.
Tanks do too much damage in overall, in my opinion. I'm not saying champions like Yi and Jax are too weak, I'm saying a tank does too much damage in comparison to them. The same goes for caster DPS.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Hoax
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Reply #16 on: October 06, 2010, 11:24:20 AM

You could still arguably pick Yi 5th in draft against the right lineup with the right lineup. Jax is insanely weak right now but you could probably babysit him with Sona or Taric if you really wanted to. The game is well balanced for anyone who isn't refusing to only play Yi & Jax and that person is looking for a reason to complain and make an excuse for why they lose ahead of the game itself.

Quote
Team Cleanse + Yi Rape:
Kennen w/ Cleanse
Soraka w/ Cleanse
Nidalee w/ Cleanse
Shen w/ Cleanse
Yi w/ Cleanse

That was in May, when Cleanse was amazing and I think Nid still had a few more nerfs in the pipe but still that was a 5v5 team that was facerape in May. You can make "rogue" strats work but most people don't care enough about making Yi work to bother with that and instead operate mostly inside the understood high tier metagame. Complaining about that and blaming Riot that the one and only champ you like isn't considered to be top tier means you don't actually understand how metagames work.

Another example, months ago nobody played Garen. He wasn't buffed and then gained play its just that combat was too aoe centric and over too quickly for him to matter. He's now easily the champ any random player is most likely to pick as the most OP champ in the game. That's how metagames work, they shift based on what people know outside of the game. Garen didn't change in-game but as Vlad came out and sunfire builds for everyone got popular and the game slowed and slowed people started fitting him into teams and he was crushing and it became common knowledge from the boards, tier lists and livestreams that Garen was OP. The meta shifted and now he is almost always banned.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
PkProjects
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Reply #17 on: October 06, 2010, 01:00:08 PM

You could still arguably pick Yi 5th in draft against the right lineup with the right lineup. Jax is insanely weak right now but you could probably babysit him with Sona or Taric if you really wanted to. The game is well balanced for anyone who isn't refusing to only play Yi & Jax and that person is looking for a reason to complain and make an excuse for why they lose ahead of the game itself.

I might be wrong, but I see this as a personal attack? I gave Yi and Jax as examples, and I win enough, thanks.

As for garen, he was always OP, just because of the shift of attention, only now have people come to acknowledge it.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Chimpy
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WWW
Reply #18 on: October 06, 2010, 01:45:08 PM

Yeah, you might win some with Yi and Jax. So what?

That doesn't mean they are "great" champions in the top tier.

By your logic, me losing half my games while playing Tristana means that she is not a good champion.



'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #19 on: October 06, 2010, 02:23:25 PM

You could still arguably pick Yi 5th in draft against the right lineup with the right lineup. Jax is insanely weak right now but you could probably babysit him with Sona or Taric if you really wanted to. The game is well balanced for anyone who isn't refusing to only play Yi & Jax and that person is looking for a reason to complain and make an excuse for why they lose ahead of the game itself.

I might be wrong, but I see this as a personal attack? I gave Yi and Jax as examples, and I win enough, thanks.

As for garen, he was always OP, just because of the shift of attention, only now have people come to acknowledge it.

Welcome to f13, if you don't like it feel free to leave. I'm not required to coddle a poster like you who comes on and as his first act creates a thread that serves zero fucking purpose because apparently it was just a declaration of facts from someone who wins all his games.  Ohhhhh, I see.

Was your point to simply enlighten us all as to how amazing you are with an underpowered champ? Because if so, great success!

This is how you are coming off at this point and nobody here gives a fuck for someone like that, I'm sure you can go chest thump on Solomid's boards and you will fit right in. Also the fact that you say Garen was always OP proves you don't get it. He wasn't OP because the best 5 man team had no room for Garen. The meta shifts and now there is always a spot for him in what is considered the best high level strategy. If the strat shifts that can change. Its not about the champs so much as how the team's are constructed what they are trying to do to win and most importantly who the enemy will most likely be playing.

The last example of metagame I'm going to bother giving, post WCG we're seeing people play veigar, mid panth and I'm sure we'll see more TF. Did they get better? No but the knowledge of how they could be used to good effect increased and now the meta in the short term at least is slightly shifted. Game 1 of the grand finals may prove that the dominant US strategy (get amumu + ez mode stun + aoe death = win) has a flaw that can be exploited by push orientated teams or it might just be that CLG didn't know how to play against it but none of this means TF is OP its just changes to the meta.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 02:26:12 PM by Hoax »

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
PkProjects
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Reply #20 on: October 06, 2010, 02:59:57 PM

Yeah, you might win some with Yi and Jax. So what?

That doesn't mean they are "great" champions in the top tier.

By your logic, me losing half my games while playing Tristana means that she is not a good champion.

Win loss ratios with champions have nothing to do with my point, I was just countering Hoax as he/she seems to have a desire to try to work me off these forums.

@Hoax
If I seem not to understand, what's so hard in trying to explain? Just because my opinion is not equal to yours and therefore I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to tell me, does not mean you have to act like a complete douchebag based solely on the reason that I'm not a veteran member of these forums. Also you seem to not understand the difference between enough wins and all wins? My standards of enough might aswell be 50% of my games, whereas you're implying my ratio lies above 90%. awesome, for real

Back on topic.
If the strat shifts really are the case, then what Riot is doing is pretty useless. That would mean they keep adjusting champions when people start finding the good points, and when they're used in a good manner to counter the champions the opponent is most likely picking? If so, this is a never-ending cycle.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Typhon
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Reply #21 on: October 06, 2010, 03:09:14 PM

Back on topic.
If the strat shifts really are the case, then what Riot is doing is pretty useless. That would mean they keep adjusting champions when people start finding the good points, and when they're used in a good manner to counter the champions the opponent is most likely picking? If so, this is a never-ending cycle.

Lol, that is the point of the changes.  If the meta-game becomes stagnant, people stop playing because the game gets boring.

I had typed the following, but then I saw you post (above) and wanted to tie it all together.  Riots #1 job as game developer is to keep the meta game evolving so that the game stays interesting.  It could be argued that the game should stay fairly static during a particular season, but I say 'fuck em, the measure of a true champion is his/her ability to adapt'.

Also the fact that you say Garen was always OP proves you don't get it.

Just in case you think Hoax is just picking on you, I also think that you saying that "Garen was always OP" proves that you don't get it.

Let's shift to your dissatisfaction with TT for a minute.  It's a different map.  It's smaller.  It's walls are thinner.  It has fewer champs playing.  How can a map be unbalanced?  Are champions with certain abilities better on that map?  They should be.  The 'top tier' for TT should be considerably different than the 'top tier' for SR.  Different summoner abilities should be more desirable.  If the same champs are 'top tier' for both TT and SR I'd say that the reasons for that should be explored and corrected.

A measure of OP should probably be - is the Champ, item, or summoner ability better or best in multiple scenarios or team configurations?  If yes, then it's worth look.  If Garen happens to be good now in certain team configurations then the evolving metagame is working as intended.
Slayerik
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Reply #22 on: October 06, 2010, 03:18:17 PM

Win loss ratios with champions have nothing to do with my point, I was just countering Hoax as he/she seems to have a desire to try to work me off these forums.

@Hoax


@new guy

First off, don't use @ anyone. This isn't facebook or twitter or wherever that is used.

Hoax basically just knows the game better than you. I never much liked playing LoL with the guy but I know he knows his shit. All your posts have not demonstrated a knowledge of the real meta-game that is LoL. Hoax has pretty well shown he has a handle on it, and has for a long time.

Hoax can't run you off this forum. I recommend you take a breath, read around a bit (lurk), and get a feel for the place. Forget about defending your e-honour. He will just make you into his bitch. Saying weak shit like "Just because my opinion is not equal to yours " doesn't help, as you are making yourself into one.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
PkProjects
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Reply #23 on: October 06, 2010, 03:49:06 PM

Just in case you think Hoax is just picking on you, I also think that you saying that "Garen was always OP" proves that you don't get it.

No I totally understand that, and I don't doubt his knowledge of the game, it's just the way he put it.

And slayerik, I used the @ because I can't find a multiquote button here and I'm too lazy to manually do it. But fine, I'll stop using it.
Also, what's up with saying it's weak shit, that I formulate my sentences a bit different doesn't mean there's no meaning behind the words. If you'd like me to start using less formal language, then sure, but I don't see why that would be an issue.

And you all seem to forget, the whole reason I made this is because I wanted to know opinions and gain knowledge, I ain't saying my viewpoint is the correct one, I'm just explicitly stating it so you can correct me.
Inb4 next flame; go fuck yourself.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Slayerik
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Reply #24 on: October 06, 2010, 03:55:28 PM

Go play Yi and Jax and GTFO.

Don't defend your usage of @, next time just say you didn't know. We don't need some long explanation. Actually, we don't much care. You will be here for 6 hours, 6 days, 6 months, or 6 years... that's all on you. E-honour...HO!

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
PkProjects
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Reply #25 on: October 06, 2010, 03:58:12 PM

Go play Yi and Jax and GTFO.

Don't defend your usage of @, next time just say you didn't know. We don't need some long explanation. Actually, we don't much care. You will be here for 6 hours, 6 days, 6 months, or 6 years... that's all on you. E-honour...HO!

Wtf is E-honour. Umad?
I've lost faith in mankind, thanks.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Thrawn
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Reply #26 on: October 06, 2010, 04:05:04 PM

GAREN IS OP!!!!!

Den thread?

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
PkProjects
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Reply #27 on: October 06, 2010, 04:17:25 PM

GAREN IS OP!!!!!

Den thread?

I think you don't get it.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Thrawn
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Posts: 3089


Reply #28 on: October 06, 2010, 04:19:24 PM

GAREN IS OP!!!!!

Den thread?

I think you don't get it.

Sorry,

YI IS OP!!!!!

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
PkProjects
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Posts: 16


Reply #29 on: October 06, 2010, 04:31:10 PM


"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itsself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
Thrawn
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Posts: 3089


Reply #30 on: October 06, 2010, 04:35:53 PM

Sorry,

Seems like you did get it.

Titans are OP, nerf doomsdays and Arcbound Ravager.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Kail
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Reply #31 on: October 06, 2010, 05:11:25 PM

Back on topic.
If the strat shifts really are the case, then what Riot is doing is pretty useless. That would mean they keep adjusting champions when people start finding the good points, and when they're used in a good manner to counter the champions the opponent is most likely picking? If so, this is a never-ending cycle.

Lol, that is the point of the changes.  If the meta-game becomes stagnant, people stop playing because the game gets boring.

I had typed the following, but then I saw you post (above) and wanted to tie it all together.  Riots #1 job as game developer is to keep the meta game evolving so that the game stays interesting.  It could be argued that the game should stay fairly static during a particular season, but I say 'fuck em, the measure of a true champion is his/her ability to adapt'.

I don't know that I agree with that.  Riot's #1 job is to ensure the game is fun, I'd say the metagame should be deep enough to evolve on it's own.  For example, Ezreal went from relatively mediocre to HOLY SHIT OP then back to mediocre (or worse) because of shifts in the metagame and Riot reacting to them.  At which point was he "balanced?"  All of them?  None of them?  By constantly re-balancing everying, Riot lowers the skill ceiling, since if you're a top end player and you've been practicing X champion or strategy and it suddenly gets nerfed because you're getting too good at it, then you're back at square one.  I'd argue that the general population realizing that X can be countered by Y is a much more competitive solution than just nerfing X into obscurity before Y can even be discovered.

Not that keeping the metagame fluid is a bad thing, but I think there are ways of doing that without playing Whack-A-Mole with tier lists.  New maps and gameplay modes, for example, would switch things up (though Riot is strangely slow on those).  The new champs and items that Riot introduces regularly are already doing a pretty good job of keeping things moving.  Obviously overpowering strats (like pre-remake TF) should probably be dealt with by balance.  But I'd really rather see the community deal with Garen being "OP" than for Riot to come down and "fix" him.
schild
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WWW
Reply #32 on: October 06, 2010, 06:37:17 PM

Sorry,

Seems like you did get it.

Titans are OP, nerf doomsdays and Arcbound Ravager.

Thread over.
Slayerik
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Reply #33 on: October 06, 2010, 09:38:25 PM

GAREN IS OP!!!!!

Den thread?

I think you don't get it.

Sorry,

YI IS OP!!!!!

But TT is unbalanced.

I swear left is better than right.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Typhon
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Reply #34 on: October 07, 2010, 09:45:01 AM

[...]
Not that keeping the metagame fluid is a bad thing, but I think there are ways of doing that without playing Whack-A-Mole with tier lists.  New maps and gameplay modes, for example, would switch things up (though Riot is strangely slow on those).  The new champs and items that Riot introduces regularly are already doing a pretty good job of keeping things moving.  Obviously overpowering strats (like pre-remake TF) should probably be dealt with by balance.  But I'd really rather see the community deal with Garen being "OP" than for Riot to come down and "fix" him.

I think we're saying the same thing.  My take on Garen is that he isn't OP, folks just need a bit more time to figure out how to team-construct to respond to a Garen + teammates (because I don't think Garen by himself is all that scary).  Also, in a sort of inverse of the way that MtG has it's most current cards locked-in the for the most current season, they could lock down a set of champions and items that have had a chance to bake in the oven for a longer period of time, and leave the new champs and items out of tournament play for that season/bracket.

My take on how Riot is handling balance is that they're learning.  Initially the tweaks were mostly champ focused and pretty ham-fisted.  As they are getting a handle on things, there is (gradually) less tweaking of individual champs (and it's more modest ) and more tweaking the game (continuously adding new champs and trickling in new items).  Maybe I'm just not following the changes closely enough.

I'm also curious about why they aren't more aggressive with adding new maps and I'd love to see them try out some different game modes.
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