Oh shit, Trammel comes to WoW

[Ingmar]

Then there's the problem that a) gamers have gotten considerably better over the years and b) most people will quit if they lose all the time.  

Most is right, so you have rulesets where you vary the amount they lose and a ruleset where they can't lose at all.  

Like it's been done before, it's been a page since I said about WoW "The differences between the PVE and PVP rulesets are negligible and have been ever since they introduced battlegrounds" and I haven't seen anyone object (apart from a couple point out that PVE servers were more like PVP servers than I thought, even pre battlegrounds).

I thought about objecting, but I'm not really sure what your threshold for negligible is, and I just don't care that much since I am safe on my carebear server and can go into Ashenvale on a new alt without getting corpse camped into oblivion.

I find the differences large enough to be meaningful, personally. During TBC it was exaggerated because the premier high level player hub (Isle of Quel'Danas) was a kill zone on PVP servers, it should be the same in Cataclysm.

[Dren]

I've always wondered about what Ingmar touched on.  What about those spaces where people on both factions are basically forced to be together?  I'm on a PvE server so I can only imagine.  I'm talking about places like Blackrock(old world,) Karazhan (old World,) Gruul's, Magtheridon, Quel'Danas, under the Dragon Temple (name escapes me,) ICC!  There has to be some good ole skirmishing going on there while people are trying to gather and participate in raids, no?  I'd imagine bored people with a hankering for good old fashion ganking would have a hayday hanging around there looking for an easy pounce.

[Xanthippe]

Hey look, emergent gameplay! QUICK KILL IT WITH SOMETHING WE CAN CONTROL.   What a nice way to summarize the last 5+ years of MMO development.

This is so true that I laughed out loud at my desk.... right before I started crying. 

So much wasted opportunity.  Your players will tell you which parts of your game are fun if only you'll take the time to listen/watch.

But we are talking about MMOs here, where the devs tell the players which parts of the games are fun (and how the players are doing it wrong if they aren't having fun), remember?

[WindupAtheist]

He wasn't right about anything, the conversation has shifted from pvp players being evil foul mouthed 12 year olds to people talking about how "actually, *strokes chin* there was quite a lot of pvp on our PVE server". None of the mainstream games exclude pvp anymore, games are coming out where you can level purely through pvp

Yeah, but you have to understand Slayerik man. He might wax nostalgic about Hillsbrad ganking because it reminded him vaguely of UO, but basically WoW PVP is pussy bullshit in his book. Sure you can kill people, but you can't take all their armor or blow up their freighter and ruin them. The battlegrounds and stuff that comprise "not excluding PVP" don't even count to him.

Anyway, out of a couple thousand people (or whatever) on a server, how many of them REALLY spent any substantial time running around Hillsbrad picking a fight? A whopping 2% of the population could turn the place into a 24/7 warzone if that's what they wanted.

and the top thread in his UO forum is Mythic trying to drum up interest in their game with a "classic" shard.

It's more like Mythic warily circling the idea, because as much "GIEV CLASSIX SHARD PLZ" feedback as they get, they can't forget that they already have a fully open PVP shard with almost no one on it. That's not even my interpretation, that's what the producer has stated.

It might be another 10 years but somebody is going to let the artificial barriers between players come down on one server just to see what happens, it sure won't be pretty but it's inevitable.  It doesn't make any sense to build a game purely for the 10% of players that might enjoy that ruleset (SB DF), but as a side project of something that has a chance of being successful, sure.  The 10% or so market share for arseholes who want the freedom to be arseholes hasn't changed but 10% of WoW is a lot larger than 10% of EQ.

Darktide? Siege Perilous? Whatever the PVP server in EQ was called? Even at the height of the PK/Carebear wars, it used to be that every major MMO had its designated total fragfest server. WoW just bucked the trend because they didn't feel like dealing with the CS calls over people shit-talking each other.

[Slayerik]

I've always wondered about what Ingmar touched on.  What about those spaces where people on both factions are basically forced to be together?  I'm on a PvE server so I can only imagine.  I'm talking about places like Blackrock(old world,) Karazhan (old World,) Gruul's, Magtheridon, Quel'Danas, under the Dragon Temple (name escapes me,) ICC!  There has to be some good ole skirmishing going on there while people are trying to gather and participate in raids, no?  I'd imagine bored people with a hankering for good old fashion ganking would have a hayday hanging around there looking for an easy pounce.

Blackrock scraps were some of the best. I'm biased cause I was a priest and could mind control bitches into the lava. It was cool cause back then it was 40 man raids, so shit got hairy. Outside Onyxia was another big fighting spot.

Yeah, but you have to understand Slayerik man. He might wax nostalgic about Hillsbrad ganking because it reminded him vaguely of UO, but basically WoW PVP is pussy bullshit in his book. Sure you can kill people, but you can't take all their armor or blow up their freighter and ruin them. The battlegrounds and stuff that comprise "not excluding PVP" don't even count to him.

Na, I just like ruining their game if there are retarded enough to haul around everything they own in a shit ship. Though, the carebear tears are pretty yummy.

[Sheepherder]

It was fucking awesome but loads of people cried about it (that thread being a good example of the division it caused.)

I griefed the shit of the zombies on my warrior, with a paladin in my guild.  We would go full RP Nerd with emotes and heroic utterances while dropping Bladestorm and Holy Wrath on the zombies constantly raiding Westfall, Redridge, Goldshire and Darkshire.  The ex-zombies would get super pissed at us for ruining their fun.

[Arthur_Parker]

It might be another 10 years but somebody is going to let the artificial barriers between players come down on one server just to see what happens, it sure won't be pretty but it's inevitable.  It doesn't make any sense to build a game purely for the 10% of players that might enjoy that ruleset (SB DF), but as a side project of something that has a chance of being successful, sure.  The 10% or so market share for arseholes who want the freedom to be arseholes hasn't changed but 10% of WoW is a lot larger than 10% of EQ.

Darktide? Siege Perilous? Whatever the PVP server in EQ was called? Even at the height of the PK/Carebear wars, it used to be that every major MMO had its designated total fragfest server. WoW just bucked the trend because they didn't feel like dealing with the CS calls over people shit-talking each other.

You missed the point, we are getting less options, not more, you have the perfect PVE game now, refined, polished and very very profitable.  What's next?  Do you believe everyone will continue to try to build a better WoW, forever?  EQ wasn't the final word on what's possible and neither is WoW.

Even if all we get for the next ten years is clones of WoW, the changes will just come from outside.  Modern Warfare has online multiplayer, character skill advancement, weapon upgrades & PVE elements (helicopter, airstrike) you can call in to support an attack.   EQ was ported to a console, maybe the next revolutionary mmorpg will end up being ported from a console to a PC.  Ironic, considering pvp players used to be told to go play counterstrike.

[WindupAtheist]

What do you mean less options? WoW has Battlegrounds, PVP servers, and an entire endgame zone dedicated to PVP even on PVE servers. Eve has everything from small-scale ganking to giant wars with thousands of combatants. Age of Conan has PVP servers where you can kill anyone you want. Shadowbane is dead, but I think we actually have a couple of people playing Darkfall right now.

[Arthur_Parker]

Less options within a single game.  WoW has a very narrow focus, PVE levels and gear > everything else.  It works but that's also why it's never going to be an interesting pvp game.  Eve is a weird pvp spaceship game, but it's more interesting to read about it's War than take part.  The others I don't think you can class as successful.

[Dren]

Less options within a single game.  WoW has a very narrow focus, PVE levels and gear > everything else.  It works but that's also why it's never going to be an interesting pvp game.  Eve is a weird pvp spaceship game, but it's more interesting to read about it's War than take part.  The others I don't think you can class as successful.

I take exception to your "PVE Levels and gear> everything else" statement.

You can actually level and gear yourself purely within the BG's in WoW if you choose.  You can also choose to stay low level and PvP in BG's if that's your thing.  I'm actually getting my alts more PvP gear from PvP'ing so they can get into heroic PVE instances quicker and easier than purely hitting random 5-mans all day long.  Yes a purple PvP ilvl 232 piece is not equal to an ilvl 232 PvE piece, but it is much much easier to get.  Purple PvP gear makes me more than viable for heroics while making me viable for BG's too!

My beef is hitting the arena cockblock at some point.  However, it is much like hitting the raiding cockblock.  At some point you have to put your individualism away and sign up with a "team" to get to the best stuff.

[Ingmar]

The one big gap is weapons, but it sounds like that will be changing in Cataclysm.

[WindupAtheist]

Less options within a single game.  WoW has a very narrow focus, PVE levels and gear > everything else.  It works but that's also why it's never going to be an interesting pvp game.  Eve is a weird pvp spaceship game, but it's more interesting to read about it's War than take part.  The others I don't think you can class as successful.

Yeah, but that's more a function of PVE being a bigger market than hardcore PVP, combined with there being more than three MMO games out there now. So you have a variety. There are a few hardcore PVP games that aren't very large, and some larger PVE games with a minority PVP focus.

I mean I'm not sure what else you expect. The PVP games are out there. I mean if someone makes a Modern Warfare MMO with the two factions running around an entire world shooting each other, we'll just go "Hey someone did WW2O/Planetside right finally!"

[Arthur_Parker]

I take exception to your "PVE Levels and gear> everything else" statement.

You can actually level and gear yourself purely within the BG's in WoW if you choose.  You can also choose to stay low level and PvP in BG's if that's your thing.  I'm actually getting my alts more PvP gear from PvP'ing so they can get into heroic PVE instances quicker and easier than purely hitting random 5-mans all day long.  Yes a purple PvP ilvl 232 piece is not equal to an ilvl 232 PvE piece, but it is much much easier to get.  Purple PvP gear makes me more than viable for heroics while making me viable for BG's too!

My beef is hitting the arena cockblock at some point.  However, it is much like hitting the raiding cockblock.  At some point you have to put your individualism away and sign up with a "team" to get to the best stuff.

Staying low level in level restricted bg's only sidesteps the importance of levels.  I see your other point on items but I'm assuming you are talking about gearing yourself in terms of earned greens and blues.  WoW's gear dependency is such an overwhelming aspect of the game that it's difficult to imagine any other system in comparison.  

I'm talking about how in past games player choice during advancement could be more important than how many exp you had earned and how characters might end up in a situation where they have to make do with store bought or looted non magic *gasp* items.  Obviously the idea of someone using white items in WoW outside the "bad groups" thread is stupid and I'm not suggesting otherwise.  I'm just saying there used to be other ways to do things.

[Arthur_Parker]

Yeah, but that's more a function of PVE being a bigger market than hardcore PVP

You have been making that point for 10 years.  Hardcore pvp, sure.  General PVP maybe, we won't know till somebody does a good one.  DF & SB failing means no more than Vanguard failing, just means it's a silly idea to intentionally limit your player base by appealing to a subset of players.

[WindupAtheist]

You have been making that point for 10 years.  Hardcore pvp, sure.  General PVP maybe, we won't know till somebody does a good one.  DF & SB failing means no more than Vanguard failing, just means it's a silly idea to intentionally limit your player base by appealing to a subset of players.

I don't even know what you mean by a game that is totally PVP focused but isn't hardcore PVP.

[Ingmar]

You have been making that point for 10 years.  Hardcore pvp, sure.  General PVP maybe, we won't know till somebody does a good one.  DF & SB failing means no more than Vanguard failing, just means it's a silly idea to intentionally limit your player base by appealing to a subset of players.

I don't even know what you mean by a game that is totally PVP focused but isn't hardcore PVP.

DAOC/WAR I guess?

[Lakov_Sanite]

The type of pvp game you want to exist is not going to happen for the same reason there wasn't another season of farscape.  while they have rabid fanbases neither would be profitable.

[Arthur_Parker]

I don't even know what you mean by a game that is totally PVP focused but isn't hardcore PVP.

I didn't say "totally PVP focused", there's no reason to limit yourself in that way.  AC1, pvp focused or not?

To put it another way, do you think Blizzard could have released a fantasy mmo in 2004 that didn't have levels and yet was widely popular?

The type of pvp game you want to exist is not going to happen for the same reason there wasn't another season of farscape.  while they have rabid fanbases neither would be profitable.

I'm talking about ten years ahead, Modern Warfare is already pretty close to keeping me happy and it seemed to do ok.

[Ironwood]

You've all been suckered in.

For 3 pages now.

[Lakov_Sanite]

You've all been suckered in.

For 3 pages now.

I have a really boring job.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Some of us enjoy trolling/being trolled 

I'd rather bite than not.

[Lantyssa]

To put it another way, do you think Blizzard could have released a fantasy mmo in 2004 that didn't have levels and yet was widely popular?

Yes.  It only needed the Ring Ping™.

You've all been suckered in.

For 3 pages now.

I'm only reading for laughs.

Need all I can get at the moment.

[Arthur_Parker]

To put it another way, do you think Blizzard could have released a fantasy mmo in 2004 that didn't have levels and yet was widely popular?

Yes.  It only needed the Ring Ping™.

Ring Ping
Terminology used includes the following:
"Ring pinged" - where the ball hits the edge of the ring and goes off at a dodgy angle
"Ring sting" - where it hits two edges of the ring
"Kerby ring" - where the ball strikes the table on the edge and goes off at a dodgy angle
"Reverse kerby ring" - where it skims the back edge of the table
"Ring-ding-a-ling" - where the ball hits a chair then lands on the table (this is legal)

I see, interesting.

[WindupAtheist]

I didn't say "totally PVP focused", there's no reason to limit yourself in that way.  AC1, pvp focused or not?

Wasn't AC1 just the usual carebear-fest with the typical solitary PK server thrown in? I still don't know what you're getting at, or what possible permutation of PVP rules you could be thinking of that doesn't already exist somewhere.

[Arthur_Parker]

I wasn't talking purely about pvp, you are, but I'm not.  You didn't answer "To put it another way, do you think Blizzard could have released a fantasy mmo in 2004 that didn't have levels and yet was widely popular?

[WindupAtheist]

Of course. You really think if WoW had skill trees or something it would have been a flop?

You still aren't telling me what you want. So you want variety, all in one game, but you're not just talking about PVP. But you're not talking about WoW and it's PVE game mixed with battlegrounds, PVP servers, and designated PVP zones. Not that kind of variety. Nor do you mean Eve with it's combination of economics and crafting plus giant player-driven PVP wars. Not that kind of variety either.

Well... what?

[Arthur_Parker]

No it would be a bloody good game as all Blizzard games are.

Why should it matter what I want?  If I was really interested in the economy and/or crafting then I have to fly a spaceship in straight lines?  Heh no, didn't like it, I'll wait, ten years is fine, I'll even settle for fifteen.  Maybe Modern Warfare 11 will have a toolshed I can tinker in.

You started the thread, over to you, what do you want?

[WindupAtheist]

To conjure up a circa five years ago PVP thread by trolling people to their face while acting like I'm doing so self-referentially! Muahahaha! 

But no, I've always been pretty clear as to what I want. I want a game that's worldy but not cockstabby, solo-friendly in the extreme, with no classes, lots of fluff and housing, and a player-driven economy. I want an opt-in PVP system that inflicts minimal penalty upon players, though some effect on the world is acceptable. I want some dedicated PVP servers where everyone can frag anyone else, so the Slayeriks of the world have something to do besides play Eve. They can even have one crazy-ass server with item loot or permadeath or what the hell ever for all I care, I won't be playing on it.

Basically I want UO circa 2001 updated with everything that's been learned since. Such a game would never do really huge numbers, but it could grab a couple hundred thousand people and keep them forever. But nobody with money really thinks in those terms.

[Arthur_Parker]

Sounds good to me, especially Slayeriks server, you just need to think of a name for that server.  F something maybe?

[Dren]

Staying low level in level restricted bg's only sidesteps the importance of levels.  I see your other point on items but I'm assuming you are talking about gearing yourself in terms of earned greens and blues.  WoW's gear dependency is such an overwhelming aspect of the game that it's difficult to imagine any other system in comparison.  

For sub-60 level, you can earn honor to purchase decent blues which aren't really PvP specific, just decent gear.  60-80, you can get all kinds of purples that are typically more pvp oriented, but still quite good when used in PvE, just not as good as the same ilevel.  At 80, I'm mostly talking ilvl 232 purples, which you might compare to ilvl 200 purple PvE items.  The PvP ilvl 232 items are way easier to obtain, in my opnion.  You can literally jump from white items, if you want, and get them.  You will certainly get all kinds of complaining from other players that don't like the fact that you have a GS of 10 in their BG, but if you have a thick skin it won't matter.  It really doesn't matter in Wintergrasp, just be one of the masses getting killed over and over.  You'll still get your rewards.

As for shaping your character based on what you do, WoW handles that with items.  The items make you what you are (outside of player skill,) and what you do determines what items you have.  My guess is you are referencing back to a skill based system like UO.  The only problem is, everyone eventually hits that sweet spot of skills they want for their character and it is basically a well developed "class" that a lot of other people do too.  The problem is, if you want to change, you are faced with a lot more time to do it.

I like the item route because I can keep as many sets of items I want to switch how I want to play at any time.  As an example, my paladin was in a BG last night.  I started off as a Ret-healer (ret spec, but wearing my healing gear) because we typically have no healers.  It turns out we have too many healers, so I change my gear to my pure DPS.  Sometimes I'll throw on my tank gear (from PvE) because a situation needs a more tanky person (AV anyone?)  I do this with all my other chars too.  Each one has gone through a lot of different paths to get a lot of different items that make up their power and flexibility for any situation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just giving examples within WoW that seem to somewhat fit what you are saying.

[Ingmar]

And it should be pointed out that the current PVP items are in fact actually better to PVP with than PVE gear of the same level, which was not always true in the past.

[Arthur_Parker]

If you look back at this derail (maybe derail is the wrong word for this thread).  Anyway, if you look back it started because I said "PVE Levels and gear> everything else" for WoW.  Mentioning the different ways you can get items and the reasons that exist for carrying more than one set isn't really telling me I'm wrong.  I wasn't criticising WoW for being WoW, it is what it is, it's also the biggest and best game on the market by a long way.  It's weak in other areas, but it's in competition with games that are quite often weak in every area.