Oh shit, Trammel comes to WoW

[Chimpy]

Uhm...the Tarren Mill/Southshore battles happened on PvE servers too.

Before battlegrounds that was happening pretty much all day every day on Garona.

[Malakili]

PVP servers were cool because it was fun to watch things escalate. One lowbie gets ganked by a 60. He would call his friend in. After about 15-20 minutes, it was an all out Horde vrs. Alliance slugfest at Tarren Mill.

Ah, good times here in memory lane.

The Tarren Mill battles wouldn't have lasted though, people would have got bored eventually.  I liked them because they were unbalanced and therefore unpredictable, but they only escalated as they did by accident, not because Blizzard planned any of that.  I wouldn't be surprised if they rushed battlegrounds just because what was happening was unexpected, flight masters were killable then weren't they?

Hey look, emergent gameplay! QUICK KILL IT WITH SOMETHING WE CAN CONTROL.   What a nice way to summarize the last 5+ years of MMO development.

[Lakov_Sanite]

As someone who was trying to level a character in the tarren mill area pre battlegrounds, a big FUCK YOU to all those saying it was awesome. Remember when horde could get a debuff that let them kill other horde npc's? yeah that was shit too.  I'm all for emergent gameplay but when I have to wait around for 20minutes to have my quest giver respawn you can shove your emergent gameplay up your ass.

[Arthur_Parker]

Nobody said awesome, I said I liked it, I'm quite sure people who just wanted to level up didn't.  Hence battlegrounds.

[Slayerik]

As someone who was trying to level a character in the tarren mill area pre battlegrounds, a big FUCK YOU to all those saying it was awesome. Remember when horde could get a debuff that let them kill other horde npc's? yeah that was shit too.  I'm all for emergent gameplay but when I have to wait around for 20minutes to have my quest giver respawn you can shove your emergent gameplay up your ass.

cry moar carebear

It was awesome.

EDIT: And yeah, you could kill the Windrider dudes

[Nebu]

Hey look, emergent gameplay! QUICK KILL IT WITH SOMETHING WE CAN CONTROL.   What a nice way to summarize the last 5+ years of MMO development.

This is so true that I laughed out loud at my desk.... right before I started crying. 

So much wasted opportunity.  Your players will tell you which parts of your game are fun if only you'll take the time to listen/watch.

[Dren]

PvP is little more than a brief distraction. 

I would agree with you for most people playing, but I've come to think differently for myself.  I tend to like doing random BG's and Wintergrasp than doing the same heroic dungeons day in and day out.  I may lose a lot of the time, but at least it is always something different.  I never know what I'm going to get with PvP.  The heroics only change depending on whether you got a crappy tank or a good tank this time.

My biggest beef now, is much like most people.  I can't progress any further without doing arenas.  I can't do arenas unless I find other people that have my same schedule, like pvp, like arena-pvp, and like to do arenas over and over.  I know they are going to change this somewhat in Cata, but why they have held onto making arenas the center-point of their PvP, I'll never understand.  It also sucks that I can't get a decent weapon through "normal" pvp either.  Even with the 25 arena points per day through random BG wins only gets you to two levels down from the top gear and that doesn't include weapons, boots, wrists, or back...  They purposely gimp you to hell for not doing Arenas.

[Nebu]

Context is everything.  I made that statement regarding world pvp in WoW.  Not all pvp. 

[Arthur_Parker]

Hey look, emergent gameplay! QUICK KILL IT WITH SOMETHING WE CAN CONTROL.   What a nice way to summarize the last 5+ years of MMO development.

This is so true that I laughed out loud at my desk.... right before I started crying.  

So much wasted opportunity.  Your players will tell you which parts of your game are fun if only you'll take the time to listen/watch.

Somebody will figure it out, they just need to make sure players like Slayerik & Lakov_Sanite get to pick truly different rulesets.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Look, I enjoy pvp...when I play pvp games. Wow isn't a pvp game and calling people carebears isn't going to change that. You want to gank lowbies or kill quest givers fine but that ain't pvp it's just griefing.  Wow had a pvp toggle to appeal to what they thought was a large segment of their players( I bet it turns out to be around 10% in total) but they never built much if any pvp functionality into the game and it's STILL not balanced well for pvp, even after adding resilience gear years later.

There's a lot of things they could have done but it simply comes down to the fact that pvp in wow got in the way of the actual game they made and pissed a lot of people off because of it. That's why battlegrounds were introduced in the first place, people were not happy with random pvp happening all over whatever else they were trying to do.

True pvp is fun, it's an adrenaline rush and yes I even find battlegrounds fun pre 80 where it's more about skill than farmed gear but let's start being honest about what world pvp was.

[Arthur_Parker]

let's start being honest about what world pvp was.

[Fordel]

PVP servers were cool because it was fun to watch things escalate. One lowbie gets ganked by a 60. He would call his friend in. After about 15-20 minutes, it was an all out Horde vrs. Alliance slugfest at Tarren Mill.

Ah, good times here in memory lane.

The Tarren Mill battles wouldn't have lasted though, people would have got bored eventually.  I liked them because they were unbalanced and therefore unpredictable, but they only escalated as they did by accident, not because Blizzard planned any of that.  I wouldn't be surprised if they rushed battlegrounds just because what was happening was unexpected, flight masters were killable then weren't they?

Entire Towns were killable, that was the end result of any Tarren Mill zerg on our server. Eventually the Alliance would end up with a 2:1 population advantage and plow through the horde, their guards then their entire town and spend the next hour farming the NPCs and ganking that last stubborn horde player that kept respawning.

Eventually when we got bored of that, half of us went back to farming Timbermaw rep and the other half went to wipe out cross-roads instead. 

We are a PvE server.

[Arthur_Parker]

The "flight masters were killable then weren't they?" comment by me is meant to imply that such things aren't good and clearly weren't intended by Blizzard.  As for what happened on a PVE server, I didn't know, I don't think WoW suits PVP anyway as it's level based.

[Rendakor]

Flight masters are still killable.

[Arthur_Parker]

 

[Paelos]

Flight masters are still killable.

Happened to me at Southshore when I happened upon an 80 Hunter ganking the FM. He ran away quickly.

[Lantyssa]

Other than WUA and Slayerick having some fun, why are we even talking about PvP in WoW?  It's a joke of a joke.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

FMs are killable but when you attack them they summon two enraged... whatever mount you'd fly on from them, and they hit hard.

[Yoshimaru]

FMs are killable but when you attack them they summon two enraged... whatever mount you'd fly on from them, and they hit hard.

If you open with a stun they won't summon anything. I have no problems taking out the FM in Stormwind on my druid by starting with pounce.

[Shrike]

Other than WUA and Slayerick having some fun, why are we even talking about PvP in WoW?  It's a joke of a joke.

This late in an expansion there isn't much else to talk about. Most of the excitement the last few months for me has been world PvP--on Whisperwind, which is a good clue about how dull things are at the moment.

Come to think of it, there's some serious irony in this. Horde on WW seems to like attacking out of the way towns in the hopes of presumably provoking alliance to start a fight. Then when they succeed--and get roflstomped--they procede to whine about it either on the forums or via an alliance alt. Had that happen a couple of weeks ago in Honor Hold. Couple of horde were feeling froggy and got gigged, repeatedly. One was apparently butthurt enough to make an alt and berate us about how we were going to suck in arena PvP. Ummm, say what? 

[Sheepherder]

On the other hand, Honor Hold riots can get kinda fun, but it is hell on the folks just trying to level past Hellfire.

One of them did eventually take the durability hit, I think.  That Tauren began that fight in flight form.

[Arthur_Parker]

Other than WUA and Slayerick having some fun, why are we even talking about PvP in WoW?  It's a joke of a joke.

Talking about it is better than playing it, blame WUA for trolling.

[WindupAtheist]

Missed ya WUA. Nice to see you are still obsessed.  Now go back to holding hands with your Night Elf boyfriend on your PVE server. PVP servers were cool because it was fun to watch things escalate. One lowbie gets ganked by a 60. He would call his friend in. After about 15-20 minutes, it was an all out Horde vrs. Alliance slugfest at Tarren Mill.

Ah, good times here in memory

It was just like the free-for-all PVP of early UO, wasn't it? Oh I don't mean the action, that's obviously different for a litany of reasons. I mean the fact that it died off completely, despite never actually being removed, as soon as something better came along. Everyone loved fighting in Hillsbrad the way they loved standing around Covetous, right up until Tra...

Eh, you know, I can't even do this. I'm telling you man, I don't know if it's that everyone is getting older, or the fact that most of the really retarded and fun to kick around posters have either shut the fuck up or been driven away, but it's just not like it used to be. I miss Geldon posting yottabytes of garbage about how WoW was going to plummet any time now and Vanguard was going to be totally awesome and editing his posts 500 times while people screamed and threw things at him. I miss Sinij being a giant flaming retard on a level you were just never willing to stoop to. I miss being able to post any old bullshit and have a thirty page slapfight about Trammel or Star Wars spring up like magic.

Hell even Politics. People here still like to pretend that Politics is the crazy dipshit wild west of the internet or something, but really it's a boring "Them Wacky Republicans" forum where the same three people post the same five essays over and over and over again. We need some fucking trolls up in here is what we need. We need another Dash, half a SirBruce, and two or three Grunks. Then life would get interesting again.

[DraconianOne]

We need some fucking trolls up in here is what we need. We need another Dash, half a SirBruce, and two or three Grunks. Then life would get interesting again.

Or you could nail your scrotum to a table and cause yourself the same amount of pain AND have a cool story to tell down the pub.


Back on topic: the best world PVP that ever happened in WoW was the pre-WoTLK zombie invasion event. Blizzard sanctioned griefing, enforced by gameplay mechanics and no-one was safe anywhere.

The satisfaction of quietly turning half the Undercity NPCs into zombies and then leading them on a pk rampage in the main area was huge. The tears and cries of frustration it generated were awesome.

[Slayerik]

Missed ya WUA. Nice to see you are still obsessed.  Now go back to holding hands with your Night Elf boyfriend on your PVE server. PVP servers were cool because it was fun to watch things escalate. One lowbie gets ganked by a 60. He would call his friend in. After about 15-20 minutes, it was an all out Horde vrs. Alliance slugfest at Tarren Mill.

Ah, good times here in memory

It was just like the free-for-all PVP of early UO, wasn't it? Oh I don't mean the action, that's obviously different for a litany of reasons. I mean the fact that it died off completely, despite never actually being removed, as soon as something better came along. Everyone loved fighting in Hillsbrad the way they loved standing around Covetous, right up until Tra...

Eh, you know, I can't even do this. I'm telling you man, I don't know if it's that everyone is getting older, or the fact that most of the really retarded and fun to kick around posters have either shut the fuck up or been driven away, but it's just not like it used to be. I miss Geldon posting yottabytes of garbage about how WoW was going to plummet any time now and Vanguard was going to be totally awesome and editing his posts 500 times while people screamed and threw things at him. I miss Sinij being a giant flaming retard on a level you were just never willing to stoop to. I miss being able to post any old bullshit and have a thirty page slapfight about Trammel or Star Wars spring up like magic.

I hear ya man. I have four kids now and can't even find time to play a game of LoL with two screaming twins. I probably look back with rose colored glasses, but the Hillsbrad fights lasted until it was only alts leveling there. I'll always think of you as the poster boy for Open PVP hate, and that's ok. You always at least came with your same arguments that held merit, even if they were usually posted in a way goding a response outta guys like me. The glory days are gone, MMOs are just WoW clone pieces of shit with no balls, so you should be glad you were right. I'll be waiting for Diablo3, wiping babies asses while being reminded of your posting. Trammel threads....farewell. Maybe in another five years we can have one for old times sake, schild willing :)

[Paelos]

For god's sake, somebody throw a pie! 

[Nebu]

Talking about it is better than playing it

Have to agree.  I enjoyed the first few times through each BG and playing in WG for a few weeks.  The effect of gear just slapped me in the face like a wet fish when I would engage someone terrible and get stomped because they could just ignore any damage that I was doing... particularly if it was a Paladin.

[Arthur_Parker]

The glory days are gone, MMOs are just WoW clone pieces of shit with no balls, so you should be glad you were right.

He wasn't right about anything, the conversation has shifted from pvp players being evil foul mouthed 12 year olds to people talking about how "actually, *strokes chin* there was quite a lot of pvp on our PVE server".  None of the mainstream games exclude pvp anymore, games are coming out where you can level purely through pvp and the top thread in his UO forum is Mythic trying to drum up interest in their game with a "classic" shard.

It might be another 10 years but somebody is going to let the artificial barriers between players come down on one server just to see what happens, it sure won't be pretty but it's inevitable.  It doesn't make any sense to build a game purely for the 10% of players that might enjoy that ruleset (SB DF), but as a side project of something that has a chance of being successful, sure.  The 10% or so market share for arseholes who want the freedom to be arseholes hasn't changed but 10% of WoW is a lot larger than 10% of EQ.

Who knows, in ten years I might have the time to play a game like that again.

[Nebu]

I really believe that the concepts of PvP and MMO have a very hard time coexisting.  Combining character progression with a skill based playstyle is a very tough balancing act.  Then there's the problem that a) gamers have gotten considerably better over the years and b) most people will quit if they lose all the time. 

[Slayerik]

The glory days are gone, MMOs are just WoW clone pieces of shit with no balls, so you should be glad you were right.

The 10% or so market share for arseholes who want the freedom to be arseholes hasn't changed but 10% of WoW is a lot larger than 10% of EQ.

I don't even want the freedom to be an arsehole. I am just more of an adrenaline junky with my PVP. Item loss, like in UO, SB, Neocron, Eve Online, etc. gave me a reason to want to live (And be able to scoop loot off my opponents corpse). Also, the feeling in your gut when you saw Red names pop up in UO was pretty sweet. Later in UO, I enjoyed Factions - even with the horrible gankiness of moongate campers - because I made runebooks with spots for me and my friends to recall into. We would hit and run them, or take them on if numbers were even enough. We were coordinating with voice on Roger Wilco (lol)... so many times we took on superior numbers. So I guess I like my PVP with the Red Name Rush.

Or maybe I just ganked miners and took their shit. Cause that's what all us open PVP/item loss guys like. Can't really remember, it's all kinda blurry.

[Lantyssa]

It's a sad day when natural enemies are more likely to share a beer or make out than go after one another. 

[Arthur_Parker]

Then there's the problem that a) gamers have gotten considerably better over the years and b) most people will quit if they lose all the time.  

Most is right, so you have rulesets where you vary the amount they lose and a ruleset where they can't lose at all.  

Like it's been done before, it's been a page since I said about WoW "The differences between the PVE and PVP rulesets are negligible and have been ever since they introduced battlegrounds" and I haven't seen anyone object (apart from a couple point out that PVE servers were more like PVP servers than I thought, even pre battlegrounds).

[Morat20]

Back on topic: the best world PVP that ever happened in WoW was the pre-WoTLK zombie invasion event. Blizzard sanctioned griefing, enforced by gameplay mechanics and no-one was safe anywhere.

The satisfaction of quietly turning half the Undercity NPCs into zombies and then leading them on a pk rampage in the main area was huge. The tears and cries of frustration it generated were awesome.

I wasn't around for that. What happened?

[DraconianOne]

Back on topic: the best world PVP that ever happened in WoW was the pre-WoTLK zombie invasion event. Blizzard sanctioned griefing, enforced by gameplay mechanics and no-one was safe anywhere.

The satisfaction of quietly turning half the Undercity NPCs into zombies and then leading them on a pk rampage in the main area was huge. The tears and cries of frustration it generated were awesome.

I wasn't around for that. What happened?

The Scourge Invasion part le deux (thread)

Strange glowing crates appear in population centres. Passing players get infected. If infection wasn't cured in 5 minutes, they turned into a zombie with special skills and as part of a Scourge faction (so Allies and Horde could talk to each other while zombies). You could attack anyone whether they were PvP flagged or not, irrespective of whether you were on a PvE or PvP server. As a zombie, you lost health unless you attacked other players or NPCs. You could also infect other players/npcs who would turn shortly afterwards (and the NPCs would then follow you).

As the event went on, more crates appeared and the infection timer reduced so you only had about 30 seconds or some before turning.

It was fucking awesome but loads of people cried about it (that thread being a good example of the division it caused.)

[Rasix]

how dull things are at the moment.

That's how UO pking began for me way back when.  There was just nothing else to really do.  So... blood.