M11 Drafting + newb Q's

[Hoax]

Just did my first M11 draft, felt like I mostly was making smart picks but I failed to open a single true bomb (I ended up w/ zero rares) and my only partial bombs were Sleep and a Air Servant.  My only major error was a big time overvalue of Stone Gargoyle and a slight undervalue of Forsee (I took a foil Jace's draw 3 instead at one point). All told though I never got the Lich I hopped would drop to me (I picked up a couple of artifacts over other slightly better cards hoping one would drop to me in pack 3) and nothing big and scary presented itself.

This was because I misread the fucking signals though somehow. In pack 1 I felt like I was cutting black hard enough to send a strong signal but it completely dried up on my in pack 2 but I didn't get out in time and so ended up in a way overdrafted color. I had literally nothing of value from my Black which was a real shame given how good my Blue was (sleep, air servant, decent control, decent draw, some evasion) if the packs I had opened had provided me with a clear "take this other color here's an amazing card!" I think I could gotten an extra prize pack.

I still think White is the best color (armored ascension is easy to find and safe passage even easier + good commons + several good bombs) but I'm less sure Red is the weakest. I saw some fairly unimpressive Red cards do big damage and show off their synergy and I think that I have highly underestimated how easy it is to combo off of the 1-turn red mind control esp if you go B/R.


NEWB QUESTION:
How should I sell back the uncommons to try to regain some of my lost $$$? I really don't want to waste a ton of time or effort doing this and I believe you can sell them via automated means these days so where do I get the current pricelists and how do I set that up?

Thx in advance + post your M11 draft thoughts here?

Also is there a way to look through my drafting? I know how to access the game replays but what about the draft itself to see where I might have gone wrong?

[Ingmar]

Not sure you can really get much value back on uncommons.

Frankly I like drafting ROE better, the synergies are a little more interesting and reliable I think. The 'best' sealed pools I've seen have been white/black and white/blue, with an occasional fast green monster pull. White is just ridiculous in M11 though.

[Hoax]

I've no interest in investing money or time learning a set that is rotating out. I doubt I'll even play a lot of M11 but at least I'm not more equal footing in terms of experience with the set compared to playing something like ROE this late in the game.

[Ingmar]

ROE isn't going to rotate until like Oct 2011, its Alara block that is rotating out soon (+ M10).

...I should double check that though. Your point about being behind on the strategy with it is reasonable though yeah.

EDIT: Yeah the only stuff rotating out in October is M10 and Alara block. Rise and the rest of Zendikar block will rotate in October 2011, along with M11, unless they change it all again.

[Johny Cee]

ROE is in for the entirety of the next block (which is a return to Mirrodin block), so ROE is in for a solid year.  ROE is a very low value set, though, with the only things worth any money being the mythics (especially Vengevine and Gideon, but All is Dust, the giant Eldrazi, etc worth some).


I never sell back.... but uncommons outside of chase uncommons are virtually worthless.  There are quite a few money cards in M11...  mythics (Baneslayer, Titans, Planewalkers), some rares (Fauna Shaman is big money, Obstinate Baloth, etc.)

Check out the www.mtgsalvation.com

The rumor mill (new cards subforum) usually has an updated price list done by various online sellers, to give you an idea on values.  There also is a Magic Online subforum which might be useful.


White is pretty solid.  Good mix of utility critters, efficient fliers, removal or pseudo-removal (pacifism, condemn), and some real solid bombs.  Even Whites filler cards tend to be efficient weenies.  Goes well with B (for the removal) or U (more fliers, card draw).

Blue is also solid.  Lots of decent evaders, good bounce and card draw, disruption, some "I win" bombs like Sleep, good utility critters.  Mixes well with W (lots of fat back end for dee on the ground, with fliers to score) or green (efficient creatures combined with bounce and counters).  Even pseudo removal, with Ice Cage.  Mind Control is broken.

Green is lackluster.  Efficient creatures, little evasion.  Combos well with B (if heavy removal), U (disruption and draw), or W (utility, cheap beats).  Makes a great second color, since even Green's filler is usually better than other colors critters.

Red has a bunch of strong cards, but it has a pile of chaff.  Good burn, some good bombish big guys, some decent mid range.  Piles of bad cards if someone is already in it.

Black.  Removal, always removal.  Black has aggressive critters, with heavy front ends and low back ends.  


-Scry is fucking ridiculous.  I've seen Crystal Ball single-handedly win games, because you can shove all of your lands to the bottom of the deck so draw nothing but gas.
-Very bomby format.  A titan drop early can turn games into routs.  The new green "overrun" type card single-handedly wins games.  Sleep does the same.

[Ingmar]

Unless you get a real bomby red rare or a few of their good uncommons, red is basically looking like a splash color to me. The red common creatures are quite bad so it can really be hard to get enough out of it to make up a whole half deck. Luckily act of treason, lightning bolt, and fireball are all pretty easily splashable, if you can snag a terramorphic expanse or two. You'll need to be in green otherwise to have any kind of reliable color fixing (cultivate, sylvan ranger). Scry can help.

I'll second that crystal ball is a great, great card.

EDIT: On the topic of sleep I've now seen it slip through to me as a 7th or 8th pick several times, people seem to be undervaluing it.

[Xilren's Twin]

Also is there a way to look through my drafting? I know how to access the game replays but what about the draft itself to see where I might have gone wrong?

There is a setting in your options where you can record your drafts and it will tell you the available cards and mark the one you picked.  You can see this is my ROE draft thread below

[Hoax]

ROE is in for the entirety of the next block (which is a return to Mirrodin block), so ROE is in for a solid year.  ROE is a very low value set, though, with the only things worth any money being the mythics (especially Vengevine and Gideon, but All is Dust, the giant Eldrazi, etc worth some).

I'm in no rush to get all the way back into mtg, I'll happily just play limited and if that is fun I'll eventually play block constructed when/if I'm still around after the next block is all the way out. Magic is fucking expensive enough without trying to get into sets that are already out. Thanks to Cee for making the point about the low value of the set. Compared to that I think M11 has pretty good value if I can get some decent pulls and start winning.

I agree with most of what you are saying but I think you are heavily overestimating how strong Black is. It just doesn't have bombs for shit. There are caveats to almost every good card in black besides doom blade and most of them are basically, you better be running lots of black for this to work. Also the creatures are weak without certain combos to make them good. Ditto Red which has just so many shit awful creatures, does it have any common creature that is maindeck worthy? Seriously I'm trying to think of one and coming up empty. Most of the uncommons are good though and fling and act of treason can essentially hand a game to you for free though if you get an early lead.

I had lots of scry+draw in my draft today and while it gave me wins (I went 1-2 but I was never 2-0'd I won games in both losing series) that I couldn't have finished without the card advantage it couldn't turn around a bad game because I had no bombs to scry to.

***

Seriously though, I realize people are saying uncommons have no value but I might as well sell them right? I need a full set to turn virtual cardboard into cardboard still no? Which is not going to happen so where is the value in keeping them beyond feeling like I 'gotta catch em all?

[Johny Cee]

Agreed Ingmar.

Red has some great cards.  Fling is a bomb with the guy that doubles instant/sorcery damage, or with green fatties.  The two dragons are both amazing...  Hoarding Dragon is broken if you have another artifact creature in deck.  Fireball is the original Limited Bomb.  The problem is it has no depth.


Blue and White seem to have the most depth.  

- Blue is just filled with crazy.  Frost Titan, Conumdrum Sphinx, etc.  Mind Control seems to be completely busted open in this format.  Good card draw.  Great utility creatures (augury owl, with scry 3, is actually a great later pick).  The counters are actually really solid, and help games from sliding away from you due to a lucky opponent bomb/top deck.

- White is all around solid, with semi-bombs.  Serra Angel at uncommon is rough.  Ajani is a beating in your typical white deck.  Sun Titan recurs the huge number of weenies.

Black is always good in Limited, though it seems to be heavier towards monoblack.  Nantuko Shade is a house.  Royal Assassin, another Original Limited Bomb.  Assassinate, Doom Blade, Quag Sickness, etc. etc. all good.  Deathmark is a great sideboard card.  Sign in Blood even gives you tempo friendly draw.  

3 or 4 toughness seems to be the average, so even Black's high front end critters are pretty useful for chumping or swinging in.

[Johny Cee]

For Hoax:

Linky to set value thread on M11.  Rancored Elf is the original rumor-monger (who was sued a few years ago for dropping an entire set months in advance) and sells cards through an online store.  Jeffbcrandall is also a brick & mortar/ebay store seller, who has some great commentary.

Still good value, but it will fade a bit as time goes by:  http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=254520


If you can't really get anything for uncommons now, I'm always of the opinion you sit on them.  The way it goes now is people crack packs/draft the shit out of sets to get the mythics, flooding the market with even the rares....  which are now mostly all low value.

[Ingmar]

As far as main-deck worthy red common creatures, uh... the firebreathing doggie can be worth it if you're heavy in red from your rares/uncommons as he combos well with the goblin that can make him unblockable.

EDIT: ...hasn't serra angel always been uncommon? I know it was when I played before!

[Johny Cee]

As far as main-deck worthy red common creatures, uh... the firebreathing doggie can be worth it if you're heavy in red from your rares/uncommons as he combos well with the goblin that can make him unblockable.

EDIT: ...hasn't serra angel always been uncommon? I know it was when I played before!

She started as uncommon waaaaaaay back in history, went to rare for like 15 years (when she was arguably one of the best creatures in the game), then was bumped back to uncommon last year.

We're old.   

[Thrawn]

Wonder if we have the people to do an all F13 casual draft.  I'd be up for it I think.

[Johny Cee]

Just drafted a deck with 5 x Quag Sickness (-1/-1 for each swamp) and 2 x assassinate. 

[Ingmar]

I played some guy yesterday or the day before who got passed 4 doom blades. 

[Johny Cee]

On Red:

I had a good couple runs with Red (U/R burn, counter/disrupt, and bounce; G/R with fire servant and fling).  Red is very, very dependent on drafting a couple of cards to make it work, but luckily those are commons/uncommons.  You need a fire servant, and you need fling. 

Fling and Fire Servant, especially combined with the fire breathing dogs that you can pump, is ridiculous.
Fling and Act of Treason is also crazy.  Steal their most bad ass guy, swing, fling it to kill another critter or put the guy away.


Combos well with blue because you can burn bounce to clear a path for attackers, and use the card draw to refill your hand.

[Margalis]

Just about the signaling, there are always going to be games where it looks like a color is opened but you end up boned. You may think you're cutting a color but the guys to your left may have both gotten chase rares in the same color.

[Xilren's Twin]

Geez, managed to fo 2-1 in my first M11 draft with a totally craptacular Black Green deck.  Horrible draft.  My best cards were Nantako Shade, 2 Doom blades, Juggernaut and Warlords Axe.  I didnt draft enough critters.  Game 1 i attempted pure BG, but typically games 2 and 3 i was splashing Blue for my Preordain, Mana Leak, Unsummon and Diminish.  Primarily almost all of my opponents were also in black which made the doom blades not nearly as effective.   Played a BU guy who had 2 Leylines of the Void in his deck,  Why, i have no idea.

And of course, the best card a drafted i couldnt use - pack 3 first pick Inferno Titan. /faceplam.

[eldaec]

To sell your shit (minimum effort)...

Firstly set everything to tradable in your collection window.

Then go to the home screen and hit the trade button.

You'll see adverts for trade bots. Pick one that says it buys. Right click and 'TRADE'. Follow instructions.

Most of the sales will be less than a dollar - so you are better off using a group of bots that tracks sub-dollar credit (you trade in tickets). I use the 'Cardbot' series (Cardbot1-6 and CardBuyingBot1-6). I'm sure there is better value out there - but suspect it requires more effort.

[Hoax]

Thanks el, that was what I was looking for but I had found the bots and the amount they sell for is so staggeringly low that I decided I would see if I could get into some paper drafting at some FNM's instead. Better than nothing or hanging onto virtual cards for the sake of who knows what though considering my timetable for playing constructed in years from now if ever.

Anyone else have sell bots they recommend I saw a ton of them and really didn't feel like figuring out which ones were giving best rates though I guess I could do my homework this one time and be done with it.

[Thrawn]

Bot rates will always be low, people will sell to them for the convenience and the bots just compete with each other lower and lower.

The only way you will make out really well trading is to get good at trading person to person which will take a lot of time and research.

[Ingmar]

I have hit just an absolutely awful streak of failure, I think I need to go back to the newb room or do casual drafts or something for a while. The most annoying thing is I am still making interface errors*, but that's not really the root of my problems I don't think.

*Most egregious one: I had a completely filthy R/G ramp deck with good amounts of removal in a ROE draft, plus an Emrakul that I could actually consistently cast. I hit some guy with a rapacious one for 5, spawning the last few spawn tokens I needed to cast Emmy. So I tap out and sac all the little dudes, only to realize, hey, I'm still in the combat damage step. Needless to say you can't 'undo' on sacrificing a spawn token.

[Johny Cee]

I have hit just an absolutely awful streak of failure, I think I need to go back to the newb room or do casual drafts or something for a while. The most annoying thing is I am still making interface errors*, but that's not really the root of my problems I don't think.

*Most egregious one: I had a completely filthy R/G ramp deck with good amounts of removal in a ROE draft, plus an Emrakul that I could actually consistently cast. I hit some guy with a rapacious one for 5, spawning the last few spawn tokens I needed to cast Emmy. So I tap out and sac all the little dudes, only to realize, hey, I'm still in the combat damage step. Needless to say you can't 'undo' on sacrificing a spawn token.

Take a break for a while.  When your concentration/interest wanes, you can tend to make bad drafting calls and follow it up with bad plays.  Or at least that's me, the guy who can have a limited rating between mid-1700's and 1600.

[Hoax]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-draft-simulator/

We should do a weekend f13 mock draft, the bots for this are shaky and it can lag out a bit but it gives you deck construction and hand generator options afterwards I think just started fucking about w/ it today.

[Johny Cee]

So.

1st pack, 1st pick:  Primeval Titan, the 30 tix heavyweight for M11.
2nd pack, 1st pick: Baneslayer Angel.  A house and still worth 17ish tix.

Even if I go 0-3, my next couple drafts are paid for.

[Xilren's Twin]

Just won a 4-3-2-2 draft with a BW weenie fliers deck; i was sure was dead meat.  I didnt see any bombs drafting and was very concerned a bout even winning 1 round.  Fortunately, no one else seemed to be drafting black so i picked up 2 doom blades, 1 quaq sickness and an assassinate.  Hell i was reduced to using things like roc egg and ornithoper with warlords axe most games, but it was a weird but fun set of games.  My first round opponent was playing mono green?! with lots of wurms, mana elves, a Protean Hydra, and other fatties, i just managed to out race him.  Second round i played UR, had to mulligane to  5 in game 1 which was the end of that, and game 2 managed to come back from nothing to beat him after he had played Inferno titan and i nad nothing on the board.  That was fun.  Last round played a UW deck that actually was milling people out - defense, 2 jace's earasure, temple bell, preordaints and tomb scour.  I got game 1 quickly, he milled me out game 2, game 3 i had bumped up my deck to 42 cards and managed to win the game with 1 card left in my library.

[Johny Cee]

Well.

I just drafted all the Black in an 8 man.  All of it. 

3 x quag sick
2 x doomblade
3 x assassinate
3 x Liliana Spectre
2 x Sign in Blood
Corrupt
bunch of high power cheap critters
Royal Assassin
3 x Gravedigger
Shade as well

[Ingmar]

Nice.

I've pulled Inferno Titan in 3 out of my last 4 M11 drafts, I am getting tired of playing red.

[Johny Cee]

A favorite new easy to pull off combo:

BR:  Draft a couple of sac critters, like the 1/1 Viscera Seer (sac creature, scry 1) and Bloodthrone Vamp (sac to get +2/+2).  Draft Act of Treason, which now becomes hard removal.

[Ingmar]

Yeah, I like fling a little better as a combo, but the seer works out pretty well - I like it a little better than the bloodthrone for that combo since you can use it for a benefit after combat.

[Johny Cee]

Yeah, I like fling a little better as a combo, but the seer works out pretty well - I like it a little better than the bloodthrone for that combo since you can use it for a benefit after combat.

I like fling too.... but it's harder to pull off.  Bloodthrone combos well with the reanimating skeleton too. 

The big thing is now your opponent needs to blow removal on mediocre cards.

[Xilren's Twin]

Nice.
I've pulled Inferno Titan in 3 out of my last 4 M11 drafts, I am getting tired of playing red.

Oddly, i have also had two drafts pulling him; he's the only titan I've ever seen.  First draft i took him (since he's worth 5 tix now) but couldnt play him.
Second time I ended up with a sick Rw deck with him, Ancient Hellkite, Magma Phoenix (as a 7th pick no less), fireball, lightning bolt, lava axe, chandras outrage, a couple of hell hounds, arc runner, 2 acts of treason, etc.
Sadly, lost 1 round to a mana screw game one followed by a mana flood game two, but the other rounds were fun blowing everything to flaming bits.

[Xilren's Twin]

Oddly, i have also had two drafts pulling him; he's the only titan I've ever seen.  First draft i took him (since he's worth 5 tix now) but couldnt play him.
Second time I ended up with a sick Rw deck with him, Ancient Hellkite, Magma Phoenix (as a 7th pick no less), fireball, lightning bolt, lava axe, chandras outrage, a couple of hell hounds, arc runner, 2 acts of treason, etc.
Sadly, lost 1 round to a mana screw game one followed by a mana flood game two, but the other rounds were fun blowing everything to flaming bits.

Spoke too soon; just drafted a Sun Titan, together with a Fauna Shaman and BoP.  We shall if i get to actually play it.

Edit: Yep. worked well; won the whole draft. :)

[Johny Cee]

So.  In a 4-3-2-2 draft, I have a reanimating skeleton, a Viscera Seer (sac to scry 1), and a Bloodthrone Vamp.  The Vamp, once my opponent knows I have the skellie, becomes public enemy number one and a huge removal magnet.

To win the third game, I sac/recurred the skeleton 5 times to scry 5 lands off of the top of my deck and draw gas.

Whoops; mistakenly editted your post instead of quoting it. Accidental moderation  - Xilren

[Johny Cee]

Going to try a Thursday Night Magic sealed event (6 booster) at 6PM est, if any are interested.  The payouts look pretty good, and should be interesting:  http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/07282010e


Won 2 4-3-2-2 drafts yesterday, so I have a bunch of packs begging me to use them.