Minecraft - f13 Server is: chugging along... again (Read OP)

[Yegolev]

Obviously drunk on power.

[NiX]

Obviously drunk on power.

[Mrbloodworth]

[Yegolev]

[NiX]

That chicken is making me dizzy. Well played!

[Paelos]

What is API?

[Fordel]

Dammit, I wanted that piston mod in officially.

[Trippy]

What is API?

Application Program Interface. Right now many/most mods directly modify the original source code (well the dissembled code) to add their functionality into the game. With an API you don't need to modify the original code, you just work through the API. Among other benefits mod makers don't have to release a new version every time the code they hacked changes -- they only need to put out updates when the API changes or the mod functionality itself changes.

[Fordel]

Can't put that in though, too busy spinning. 

[proudft]

Yeah, that piston thing would be cool.  Maybe it'll somehow still happen.

[Paelos]

I'm confused. Are we mad at him now?

[Bzalthek]

No, I think we're at the cusp of exasperated acceptance now.  I don't have time for that though, I got shit to dig.

[Wasted]

I just wish for a little more focus.  Not a lot more, just a little.

And he totally missed the point about the API.  As vocal as the modders are sure to be the biggest benifit was going to be to the user and being able to install them as easily as a texture pack.  My kids want to try all these different mods and they don't have the skill to install them, my wife couldn't even figure it out.  The hassle I had to go through just to install the a flight mod (in zombe's pack) was enough to put me off.  Mods breaking with each patch has't stopped the modding community in wow, I think actually it helps keep the modders interacting with the game and updating their mods.

[Quinton]

Disappointing, really.

I think he massively underestimates the value of even a relatively simple/limited API for extensions. 

The biggest piece of advice I can give anyone for public API design is start simple and clean and don't overdesign.  But them I've worked for OS companies for the past 13 years -- it's all API design, really. ^^

Also his "we have to prevent people from making money" thing is pretty weak.  Why not enable people to make money and take a cut?  Provide a market.  Sounds like he's thinking about things backwards.

[Paelos]

I don't think preventing people from making money off your work is weak personally.

I think the kind of licensing agreement you're talking about is exactly the type of thing he referenced in that same post: allowing them to make money while taking a cut.

Given that I'm not a modder and don't use many of the mods personally, I have no idea why the API is so important, but I do know that modding does open up the game to a wider audience.

[NiX]

I have no idea why the API is so important, but I do know that modding does open up the game to a wider audience.

Ease of use is the biggest benefit that'll come from an API. I guess it depends on what they determine to be the right solution.

[Mrbloodworth]

The plan for mods

After some internal discussion and general anxiety, we’ve arrived at a
plan for supporting mods. It’s still a bit vague and the details might
change after we’ve run it by our lawyers, but here’s what we want to
do:

* Let players sign up as “mod developers”. This will cost money (edit: no longer costs money!), and
will require you agreeing to a license deal (you only need one per
mod team).
* Mod developers can download the source code from our SVN repository.
As soon as we commit a change, it will be available to all mod
developers, unobfuscated and uncensored.
* Mod developers get a unique certificate for signing their mods. This
means players can see who made what mod and choose to trust individual
developers. The cost of signing up makes sure only serious developers
have access to this certificate.

The rules of the license deal will contain:

* Mods must only be playable by people who have bought Minecraft
* You can’t sell your mods or make money off them unless you’ve got a
separate license deal with us
* The mods must not be malicious (obviously)
* We retain the right to use your mod idea and implement it ourselves
in Minecraft. This is to prevent the situation where we have to avoid
adding a feature just because there’s a mod out there that does
something similar. It’s also great for dealing with bug fixes provided
by the community.

In the long term, we hope this means people will do awesome new things
with the Minecraft engine and play around with it. We want to buy
and/or license good mods and/or total conversions and sell them
ourselves. It’s possible we might have a mod marketplace for selling
and buying mods that fans have written, or we might purchase and
integrate nice mods that fit the main theme of Minecraft.

[edit:]

Just to clear up two things:

The access cost won’t be prohibitively expensive, and if you make a good mod or something else based on the source code, it’s highly likely we will want to license it.

Because of overwhelming feedback, the cost of the mod api access will be 0 dollars.

Our intention wasn’t to make money off selling the access, only to ensure some level of quality. Obviously that wasn’t the most popular idea in the world. ;)

Can I go back to working on the maps now?

[Paelos]

That sounds like a very reasonable approach.

[Mrbloodworth]

Is it?

Im not sure how he can even regulate it for quality with no price entry. Also, good by source code.

[Rendakor]

It will be regulated the same way addons are for everything else: user feedback.

[Ingmar]

I think handing out your source code for free is kind of completely insane, but will be interesting to see what comes of this.

[Mrbloodworth]

It will be regulated the same way addons are for everything else: user feedback.

Yeah, no.

[Quinton]

Yeah, I'm a bit baffled by the "support modding with a source release to modders" approach.  Okay, yeah, API design is a bit of work and maybe the game needs some internal cleanup to support some extension APIs suitable for modding, but that's going to be a lot more sustainable and accessible than just telling the community to go nuts with the source.

I suppose it depends on your goals -- were it me, I'd want to keep the core client/server stable and upgradable while providing a way to plug in new goodies.  The whole point of an API in this kind of situation is defining a contract about what parts will remain compatible (or at least where the most effort for compatibility will be spent).

[Mrbloodworth]

Its funny, they already have this method, in practice, and have already had security issues. Member the furry guy? Yeah.

[Paelos]

Once again, not knowing anything about programming seems to be failing me here in understanding your logic.

[Fordel]

Will this get me my piston mod in officially? 

[Amaron]

I don't hate Notch like some people do but the man is clearly delusional/lost at this point.   There's still a lot of money to be made here and he's just sort of letting it slip through his fingers.   The modders are the only thing keeping a tide of clones from burying Minecraft.   Pretty soon those modders will become disgusted and someone will provide a much greener pasture for them.

[Paelos]

I don't hate Notch like some people do but the man is clearly delusional/lost at this point.   There's still a lot of money to be made here and he's just sort of letting it slip through his fingers.   The modders are the only thing keeping a tide of clones from burying Minecraft.   Pretty soon those modders will become disgusted and someone will provide a much greener pasture for them.

I'm not sure I see that logical leap.

[Mrbloodworth]

He only cares about making games, so i'm not sure sure he is thinking this through, sometimes hes a bit to open with his thought processes.

[Paelos]

He only cares about making games, so i'm not sure sure he is thinking this through, sometimes hes a bit to open with his thought processes.

Who knew developers wouldn't have any business sense? 

[Malakili]

He only cares about making games, so i'm not sure sure he is thinking this through, sometimes hes a bit to open with his thought processes.

Who knew developers wouldn't have any business sense? 

He already has enough money to live off the rest of his life while developing whatever he wants, so he doesn't really need it.

[Mrbloodworth]

He only cares about making games, so i'm not sure sure he is thinking this through, sometimes hes a bit to open with his thought processes.

Who knew developers wouldn't have any business sense? 

He already has enough money to live off the rest of his life while developing whatever he wants, so he doesn't really need it.

That was true, right up to the point he started a company and hired people.

[Amaron]

I'm not sure I see that logical leap.

Where's the leap?  Minecraft without mods is frankly a very simple game and thus pretty damn CHEAP to clone.   No matter how you look at it he's not improving it very fast.   Sooner or later someone is going to make a far superior clone.

[KallDrexx]

Where's the leap?  Minecraft without mods is frankly a very simple game and thus pretty damn CHEAP to clone.   No matter how you look at it he's not improving it very fast.   Sooner or later someone is going to make a far superior clone.

Case in point that game people linked to somewhere here (I can't seem to find it) that's pretty much a 2d version of Minecraft, that already seems already playable (based on the trailer) with development only beginning in January, and actually has me a bit more intrigued than Minecraft as it seems more fun and focused.

[Paelos]

Where's the leap?  Minecraft without mods is frankly a very simple game and thus pretty damn CHEAP to clone.   No matter how you look at it he's not improving it very fast.   Sooner or later someone is going to make a far superior clone.

The leap was that satisfying modders would somehow stop this. The game can and will be cloned due to it's success, modders or not.