StarCraft II

[Muffled]

Yar, Zerg has essentially no useful answer to mass Phoenix aside from fungal growth.  Think Blizzard, don't do it!

On the plus side, mass repairing a single Thor will just get all your workers killed rather than slaughtering an infinite number of opposing units with this patch, so yay.

[Malakili]

Man, its been one of those days where 50%+ of my games I've been all in cheese/rushed, I'm not sure I know how to beat the marine + scv rush people are doing these days either.   

I really need to be better about scouting on 2 player maps and about realizing a rush is coming in general.  If I scout at 13 like normal, I've basically already lost if they are all inning me.

[bhodi]

Yeah, the zerg changes are really rough. I'm on the test server and I idle in the f13 channel when I'm on.

I went 5-0 in placements, and then I started getting faceraped by people who were way, way better than I am.

The SCV change means no more proxy thors and retarded PF-beats-100-unit-armies. The observer change is nice, but the design still limits protoss because you virtually must go robo first for detection, no matter how cheap that detection is.

[Fordel]

What is the alternative, put the observer onto the cybercore or the gateway? One observer per nexus? I agree the mandatory robo really limits protoss, but I'm not sure how else to handle it.





The Fungal Growth change is Blizzard telling Zerg to build Hydras. I am 99% certain that is there motivation. Is that a GOOD thing on the other hand? 

[Malakili]

What is the alternative, put the observer onto the cybercore or the gateway? One observer per nexus? I agree the mandatory robo really limits protoss, but I'm not sure how else to handle it.

I think the real problem is how separate the protoss tech trees are.  Get the robo for observers and you are close to colossi, but if you want templar, you are still real damned far away.  Stargate will be a little more viable in general after the patch as well, but due to the high gas cost of a lot of protoss units, you realistically aren't going to be able to support both robo and high tech gateway/stargate units at the same time until you are on AT least 2 fully saturated bases.  The result is, a ton of colossus play in the mid game.

Protoss needs another mode of detection maybe.  Observers are great, but due to the way Protoss tech paths work, it severely limits your options in the mid game.  Maybe put the observer in the cyber core, but require either a robo OR a stargate?  granted, stargate + detection would totally nullify fast banshee play (which I think is a little too powerful anyway, but thats a separate issue).

In the end I don't have a great answer either, but I do feel like it so drastically defines PvT as a match up that I'd really like to see something done.

[Fordel]

It's all wrapped up in how Protoss run the middle line between the Terran and Zerg production methods. Robo's and Stargates work just like Factories and Starports, but Gateways are much closer to hatcheries in building/tech then say, barracks.

[K9]

Observer on cybercore isn't the worst idea ever.

[Margalis]

I'm not really playing anymore but that Fungal Growth change sounds horrible. It's like Blizzard wants there to be exactly one way to play Zerg. The general complaint about Zerg is not enough options, I don't see how removing functionality is a good thing.

[Malakili]

Yeah, the zerg changes are really rough. I'm on the test server and I idle in the f13 channel when I'm on.

I went 5-0 in placements, and then I started getting faceraped by people who were way, way better than I am.

The SCV change means no more proxy thors and retarded PF-beats-100-unit-armies. The observer change is nice, but the design still limits protoss because you virtually must go robo first for detection, no matter how cheap that detection is.

Is the channel just named "f13" i joined in but there was no one else in there. Of course, this could be due to the fact that no one was on, but I'm mostly just wanting to make sure I had the name right.

[Muffled]

I've never had an issue with Protoss detection working the way it does, personally.  No matter what I'm doing with the rest of my army I will, at some point, want immortals, colossi, or warp prisms.  More importantly, the forge and cannons are such incredibly useful structures that I don't feel as though I'm significantly disadvantaged by picking them up for defensive detection.

[Malakili]

I've never had an issue with Protoss detection working the way it does, personally.  No matter what I'm doing with the rest of my army I will, at some point, want immortals, colossi, or warp prisms.  More importantly, the forge and cannons are such incredibly useful structures that I don't feel as though I'm significantly disadvantaged by picking them up for defensive detection.

Cannons are decent, but not against banshees unless you put up so many of them that the fact that you made enough to stop the banshees makes the banshees cost effective before they even harass.

Also, why the hell do I not remember things I learn about this game. ARG!  I've been making the same mistakes for months and I never learn :(

[bhodi]

One cannon in your mineral line is all you should have. It's more for detection, which is something retarded like range 10 or 11, than the actual damage, which is only range 7, I think.

[Malakili]

One cannon in your mineral line is all you should have. It's more for detection, which is something retarded like range 10 or 11, than the actual damage, which is only range 7, I think.

Right, but if he usually his banshees to say...start picking off your units, you're in trouble.   Cannons main problem isn't their detection or damage, its their immobility compared to the insane mobility of the banshee. It also means that if he has cloaked banshees you can't move out without an observer, even if you can stop the mineral line harass.  a couple banshees can pick off a pylon near the edge of your base in no time.

I'm also extra frustrated today due to that I've been losing a lot, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I'm just really frustrated with protoss tech paths right now.   It seems there are just so many times when protoss gets by on a razor thin edge when they are transitioning and the result is that some timing attacks just absolutely ravage me.


EDIT: I just lost a game because I moved my army into his army instead of attack moving.  I'm totally dumb stuck I played fucking about as good as I can play for the entire game, and ONE MISCLICK and lost.  I honestly feel numb right now.

[Ironwood]

Man, you have to wonder why you bought this game.  You've been annoyed for 34 pages now.

 

[Malakili]

Man, you have to wonder why you bought this game.  You've been annoyed for 34 pages now.

 

Frankly, I don't know a single person to talk to about this game to vent about it to, so you guys get it.  Sorry, you don't get the "boy, I'm really enjoying this game right now" posts because I'm too busy enjoying the game to be posting about it.  If I knew anyone I could actually talk to about my games and chat with about the game in general this stuff wouldn't get posted here but frankly I really just don't have any other outlet.  If you guys are all that upset about my venting here, I'll just try and stop posting.

[Ironwood]

You go ahead and vent;  Just doesn't sound like your enjoying the thing at all.

I plan to watch a few replays today to see how the pros handle change.

 

[MrHat]

Amazon.com has Starcraft 2 at $48 today.

Other blizzard games discounted too.

[Malakili]

We would like to thank everyone for their participation thus far in the first StarCraft 2 public test. We’re in the process of temporarily taking down the PTR in order to apply changes based on your feedback and testing.

Some of the changes we’re working on implementing:
Bunker build time reduction removed as previously noted

Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units

It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command


This down time is expected to start tomorrow at noon, 12:01 p.m. PST and last for approximately 2-3 days. Keep an eye on this forum for updates on when you can rejoin the Public Test Region and begin testing the newest changes.

Thanks for your help!

[Typhon]

Has there been any word when Blizzard is going to release their tower defense maps? 

I checked the other day and didn't see any (from Blizzard).  I wish they wouldn't stop with the announce-three-years-ahead of time crap.  Especially with this - it's not like they are going to make any revenue off it (unless it's really good, but I'd be really surprised if they were even as good as the competition in this space - LoL, HoN, Dota).

[Ingmar]

Those new map mods were all announced at BlizzCon as "this year" so, yeah. Tick tock, but they haven't broken their announcement yet.

[Malakili]

I'm really buying into this stargate play v. zerg.  Microing the phoenixes and keeping up with my macro is hard for me, but even if it causes me to lose some games in the short term, its probably a good way to force myself to increase my hand speed/awareness.

[bhodi]

Sort of, but no, not really. The Nony-style phoenix harass is dead and ain't comin' back. It's not all that reliable in the long term because the micro demand is so incredibly high. Not even for top starcraft players. You can practice and practice but the fact remains that you can get better return on the APM spent on phoenixes, elsewhere.

[Malakili]

Sort of, but no, not really. The Nony-style phoenix harass is dead and ain't comin' back. It's not all that reliable in the long term because the micro demand is so incredibly high. Not even for top starcraft players. You can practice and practice but the fact remains that you can get better return on the APM spent on phoenixes, elsewhere.

Thus far its really been the only way I've been able to reliably pressure zerg early, and when I don't pressure zerg early, I lose hilariously at the 15-20 minute mark.  Those I'm definitely open to other suggestions.

 3 gate -> expand seems "safe" in that I can get the expansion up, but its really a one way street to the 2 base colossus play and its damned hard to get any kind of map control in my experience.

 Two gate robo -> expand seems viable only if he is going mass roaches.

4 Gate will put on a lot of pressure, but it feels a bit too all in for me most of the time, and I dislike the feeling of not having anywhere useful to go with my build.

Fast expanding is ok on some maps, but leaves me feeling incredibly vulnerable to a zerg who just decides he is going to go all in and kill me on a lot of them as well.

I've said it before, but I apparently just don't have a very good handle on the matchup, almost nothing I do feels "solid" the way some builds do in PvP or PvT.  Against zerg I almost always feel like I could die at any moment.  Maybe thats a scouting issue.

Edit: No really, please help, I've lost my last 5 games all to zerg and its like I just done have any answers.

I've lost twice now where I try to do early pressure, but then he rapes it with like 20 speedlings, and then runs to my base and kills me because everything was attacking, I just must having the timing so horribly off or something.

[Megrim]

Just from watching the replay you posted of the Metalopolis game, there are a few things to keep in mind.

Your scouting needs work. A lot of players don't do this properly, and most who don't but win tend to fluke by (or just have a good understanding of what happens when). Try to control the watchtowers on the map, and try to have some way of gauging the z's strength. Observers are amazing, but if you don't have a Robotics yet, just put a probe outside his base somewhere and peek in. If it dies, send another one. As an example, in the replay; you tried to counter after his initial Roach push and ran into a wall of freshly hatched Roaches. Had you scouted his main/expo with a probe first, you would have seen that he has no Drone saturation at the expo and just units. You could have dropped your expansion, slapped down a couple of cannons + more Stalkers and macroed up. Instead, what happened was, you did the typical "aha I killed all his stuff and now I can move and crush him", but you didn't count for map travel distance, or the fact that the z had the same plan. And he can make more units faster then you.

So yes, scouting is important. I can't stress this enough. Information will win you games more than micro, or macro, or anything else.

Secondly, you need a gameplan beyond the first 10 minutes. From the rep it looked like you were going to 4gate, got pressured and fell to pieces. What you need to keep in mind is that while you might be able to execute what you are planning (4gate), if the situation changes (z doing a Roach push) you need to be able to adapt. This loops back to what I wrote about scouting, but more broadly, you need to engage in more deductive thinking. If he has early Roaches = he has less Drones. Fewer Drones = sacrificed economy. Lower economy z = more breathing space for you. Ok, so he's decided to aggress and thrown your 4gate out the window. Good for you, because you can expand, concentrate on defending (since he's conceded the advantage of an early z expo. Now he has to either play catchup, or risk losing in the next 10 minutes if he doesn't kill you before your expo kicks in),  roll out with 6gates and 2robo & a-move to victory.

Lastly the technical stuff. I disagree with Bhodi on the early Forge. For the most part, one of the key factors in early-game fights for z is 'lings. They can surround in large numbers, soak up hits and let whatever else do the damage. Grabbing a fast +1 weapons means that your Zeals now kill 'lings in two hits instead of three, which is huge. More importantly, you will very rarely see a z getting a fast Evo for the corresponding +1 Carapace (good way to tell a SC1 player, btw) to push the number of hits needed back to three. Another thing is that often a single Cannon at the top of the ramp will force people to back off simply because a combination of Zealot/Stalker will be enough to hold the ramp, while the Cannon provides good steady automatic damage.

If you are having real difficulty handling early Roach/'ling pressure, consider initially cutting a Gateway (assuming you are still opening with a 4gate) and dropping down a Stargate. Offensively, z has no answer to Void Rays and bringing out a single one will help you not only crush any early attacks the z launches, but will allow you to control the airspace on the map for quite some time, by clearing Ovies. It's also another really handy way of scouting the map (obviously a Phoenix is faster). As a cute aside, if you happen to scout a z with only two Queens and no Evo chamber, a pair of VRs and a single Phoenix can do ridiculous amounts of damage to him.

Now that's roughly all I can add off the top of my head, and from watching one rep. Overall, your micro is passable, macro seems decent enough - it's really the 'gamesens-y' things that need work at the moment.

[Malakili]

it's really the 'gamesens-y' things that need work at the moment.

Yes.  I've been working on it, but its still tough for me.  I played another PvZ just now and ended up winning big, unfortunately my opponent kind of sucked, so I don't know if I played well or not.  Basically I went 2 gate, and was going throw down another, but saw a fast hatch and 3 spine crawlers going up (way too many by him).  So, I just expanded myself got a robo for observers and another gateway.  Scouted a spire so threw down 2 stargates and ended up just eventually beating back and attack of his, expanding to my gold, and ten beating him a few minutes later.  It felt pretty good, and the scouting and decision making was better for me than usual.

I tend to get so caught up in the meta game "I will go 3 gate expand" for instance, that I will totally miss that good chance to expand that I took in that game because it doesn't fit my "plan."  I think I need to just be a bit more flexible, which comes from scouting, and from realizing what the right thing to do is when I scout.   Seeing as I never played SC1 (more than just the lulz BHG with friends and lol comp stomp hilarity) this is still all pretty new to me.  Even though I've been playing more or less consistently since launch, I still feel like a huge newb after 5 months.

[birdsguts]

Well.... You've only been playing 5 months.
I think feeling like a huge noob is about right considering alot of the players you are constantly watching and measuring yourself against have been in this world of thinking for 10+ years.

[Malakili]

Still getting utterly rolled by Zerg unless I 4gate, in which case I have maybe a 50% chance of winning.  I still can't manage to figure this matchup out.   I've tried 1 gate expanding, 3 gate expanding, 2 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, no matter what I do, I just end up losing in the mid or late game to zerg macro.

Nothing but a 4 gate seems to put on enough pressure to break the zerg early game and unless I can set them back by quite a lot (like, if not win outright, set them back their entire expansion), I just lose.  And I feel like even if I somehow mange to do enough damage to make the 4 gate worth it but don't win outright, then I'm only on even footing going into the mid game.  I feel like there is some critical piece of the puzzle that I just don't get.

Can any zerg players comment on what they find tricky?  I know a lot of people say you should do this play there you go stargte to force the hydra den, then transition to colossi, but I've just flat lose using that strategy if I don't make good use of the phoenixes, and they are so micro intensiev that if I try to use them well, I'm liable to let my macro slip, forget a pylon or something.

M vP and vT are really quite reasonable, so i feel like it can't just be a pure skill ceiling I'm hitting, but fucked if I can win against zerg.

Also, this is part whine post, feel free to ignore, I just need to get it out of my system sometimes and everyone I know who plays quit.


EDIT: Let me be a little more constructive:

I often find that my money is low, I've done constant probe production, and I STILL can't match zerg macro.  Supply blocking is an occasional issue but not consistent enought o be the source of my problems all the time.  Once a zerg is on 3 bases, I feel like I've already lost.

[bhodi]

First, watch some godly micro and wish you could do this with immortals.

For a real answer, you should try the flavor of the week PvT & PvZ - it's the 3 gate 2 void build that MC recently popularized (watch this. I know HuK has been doing the build as well. It's very VERY strong on the ladder right now, and both T and Z have one hell of a time defending against it. This is different than the FE double stargate where you send 2 void rays to his 3rd as it's building and I think it works a lot better.

Here's some analysis about the PvT:

the void ray opening the way MC did it is pretty cool -- you get a stargate, one void ray, and you pressure their front without necessarily planning on building a second VR. Usually, he kills a supply depot, a tech lab/reactor, maybe a few SCVs or marines, and forces marines and vikings (instead of marauders, tanks, or banshees). He obviously has the option of building more VRs and allin-ing his opponent, but he backs off, builds a robo, keeps his VR alive, and transitions to robo tech.

The brilliant part of this opening is that MC basically gets a free stargate out of the trade (when you consider the cost of the VR/stargate against the units/structures he kills/the units his opponent is forced to build). As a result, he has way more options than a protoss who opens 2gate robo or whatever, and can easily counter banshee/raven builds by getting a phoenix or whatever (or counter mass tanks by massing phoenixes as in game 1).

Basically, it's a build that has all of the benefits of opening stargate in PvT (extremely powerful in early game, potentially game ending if your opponent messes up) and opening robo (much stronger than stargate builds in the midgame, means you don't autolose to cloaked banshees).

and explains how it works just as well PvZ:

I just wanted to clarify that stargate openings aren't inherently cheesy and the MC style stargate harass which gets a robo soon after is actually really stable. It's also not hard to tweak the build to make it NOT an allin in PvZ at least, because void rays are so strong against early roach aggression (and I think MC did this as well in the game against Julyzerg on Shakuras) -- all you do is stop void rays around your second one, drop your nexus, and keep harassing.

My experiences are just that the players on the ladder at my level who do certain openings like 14 hatch in PvZ or 1-1-1 in PvT die to a void ray timing push around a certain time like 80+% of the time, so why not take the free wins? In my opinion at least it's better to run a build into the ground and see why it starts to lose and figure out how to adjust at that point, than to preemptively change it because it may or may not lose to certain strategies at a certain point.

I haven't played enough 1v1 recently to give it the personal thumbs up or thumbs down, but I can say it's definitely building in popularity. Some people say that if they manage to scout the stargate, it works, otherwise it fails, thus it's a cheeze/all in strat, but I'm not so sure. I think it's got smooth transitions into storm or colo and has terrific early aggression potential to force zerg on the defensive in the early-mid game, even if spotted. Try it out a few times and see.

[Megrim]

Still getting utterly rolled by Zerg unless I 4gate, in which case I have maybe a 50% chance of winning.  I still can't manage to figure this matchup out.   I've tried 1 gate expanding, 3 gate expanding, 2 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, no matter what I do, I just end up losing in the mid or late game to zerg macro.

Nothing but a 4 gate seems to put on enough pressure to break the zerg early game and unless I can set them back by quite a lot (like, if not win outright, set them back their entire expansion), I just lose.  And I feel like even if I somehow mange to do enough damage to make the 4 gate worth it but don't win outright, then I'm only on even footing going into the mid game.  I feel like there is some critical piece of the puzzle that I just don't get.

Can any zerg players comment on what they find tricky?  I know a lot of people say you should do this play there you go stargte to force the hydra den, then transition to colossi, but I've just flat lose using that strategy if I don't make good use of the phoenixes, and they are so micro intensiev that if I try to use them well, I'm liable to let my macro slip, forget a pylon or something.

M vP and vT are really quite reasonable, so i feel like it can't just be a pure skill ceiling I'm hitting, but fucked if I can win against zerg.

Also, this is part whine post, feel free to ignore, I just need to get it out of my system sometimes and everyone I know who plays quit.


EDIT: Let me be a little more constructive:

I often find that my money is low, I've done constant probe production, and I STILL can't match zerg macro.  Supply blocking is an occasional issue but not consistent enought o be the source of my problems all the time.  Once a zerg is on 3 bases, I feel like I've already lost.

Post more reps. Also, like I said before, you need to have a plan. "I've tried 1 gate expanding, 3 gate expanding, 2 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, no matter what I do, I just end up losing in the mid or late game to zerg macro." isn't a plan, it's a opening sequence. You need to be thinking; I'll open with x in order to do y so that I may achieve z.

[Muffled]

Used those immortals like ghetto reavers, that was pretty sexy.  For those interested, the immortal madness starts around 9 minutes in.

It's a shame warp prisms are so flimsy, that sort of micro would be a lot more common if they had an extra 100 hit points.

[Demonix]

That video was just cheese all the way through.  Are all the Multiplayer games like that?

[bhodi]

All the multiplayer games, ever? What do you mean? In general, if a protoss scouts a 14 hatch, forge first walloff between is pretty common in higher levels, at least until the new patch where they adjust the bottom of the ramp walloff (because of this build).

[Malakili]

Post more reps. Also, like I said before, you need to have a plan. "I've tried 1 gate expanding, 3 gate expanding, 2 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, no matter what I do, I just end up losing in the mid or late game to zerg macro." isn't a plan, it's a opening sequence. You need to be thinking; I'll open with x in order to do y so that I may achieve z.

I know that, I don't need this kind of general advice.

[Malakili]

Time for my weekly bitch fest.  Finally felt like I had made some real progress in cleaning up my game, got up over 2300...and then I've totally lost my shit the last 3 days, barely any wins compared to maybe two dozen losses, I've dropped down under 2200...my god its like I just forget how to play sometimes....

For any SC veterans, how long did it take you to get consistent at the game where you felt like you had an idea of how we'll you'd play?  I feel like when I click find game I have no idea which "me" will show up.

[Fordel]

SC was never a game where you just rock a 90% win rate and call it a day.