StarCraft II

[jakonovski]

edit:
Ohh, and don't rely on drops.  

Haha, that's totally true. I botched one drop because I forgot to unload the droppees. Looking at that dude's game, I don't think he should create more dropships like that when his base is temporarily lacking combat troops. Go Vikings! He also has production buildings sitting empty. And finally, he totally feeds his guys into your Stalker concave. Not that it mattered at that point. 

[jakonovski]

I lost to a two gate zealot rush.  He had built right outside my base.  My macro was way to slow and my scouting poor.

My greatest micro achievement to date was defeating that with two Hellions. I'd just learned to do the whole building grouping thing, and spammed marines & marauders in my base while ten zealots chased my buggies across the wasteland. Now, when they build a turret in my base, that I haaaaaaate.

[K9]

Yeah, cannon rushing is retarded, and although it is beatable, it's rarely straightforward.

The best thing they could do would be to make Engineering Bays, Evolution Chambers and Forges require Barracks, Spawning Pool and Gateway respectively. This would have very little impact on gameplay, but it would delay your first cannon by 60s or so, meaning you should have your first units out and can kill the probe.

[slog]

I've been chasing the probe around when I see him scouting.  Once I have my first Marine out, he's dead meat.

[Malakili]

Drops are really powerful in bronze/silver because most players don't scout.  Scout doesn't mean just suiciding units into the enemy base to see whats happening, ti means putting an emphasis on keeping lots of sight around the map in general to catch troops movements and such.  

Usually what happens is that surprise tactics are SO effective that I think a lot of lower level players spend most of their time thinking of ways they can surprise their enemy to win, rather than thinking of stable builds.    If you are new to the game you'll probably get a single cloaked banshee in your base that beats you, and you think "haha, if I can do that to another guy I'LL win instead."

Its easy to get a couple things into your head:

1) The way to win is to do something your opponent wasn't expecting and win by surprise.

2) The way not to lose is to have a list of things in your head that could beat you and just try to build defense to stop each of those eventualities.


One will win you some games from time to time, but as soon as you face someone that has better map vision and scouting information, your surprise turns into you getting destroyed and having little left.  Two is actually just as destructive though, because you end up wasting tons of resources on defense you don't need.  

As an example, the VERY first match I played in beta, I think I played Zerg, and the opponent was Terran and it was on Scrap Station.  I had only played one match v. Very Easy AI just to sort of get the most basic feel for what I needed to do as Zerg just to play the race.    I built like 8 roaches (roaches were one supply then, so it was easy to get a lot early game) and attacked his base.  He had like 3 units and about 20 missile turrets, I just walked in and won.  Clearly this guy had gotten beaten by an air rush or something on Scrap Station and was operating under the "things I need to prevent from killing me" method of defense.  Thats obviously an extreme example, but the idea stands.

Its easy to fall into bad habits that win you a fair amount of games, and if you just want to stay in bronze or silver and win, thats actually fine, but if long term you'd like to move up in league, then you're better off losing a bit more in the short term.

[Rasix]

Yeah, those are an arse.

Zealot rushes are almost worse as toss because the only real way you're going to beat it is to defend with a 2 gate until you can break it.  I almost welcome the other guy going voidrays.  Sure beats a contest of who can 4 gate harder.

At least with a terran you can wall in.  In fact, the second you scout his base and you see something goofy, complete that wall-in no matter what.

[Malakili]

Yeah, cannon rushing is retarded, and although it is beatable, it's rarely straightforward.

The best thing they could do would be to make Engineering Bays, Evolution Chambers and Forges require Barracks, Spawning Pool and Gateway respectively. This would have very little impact on gameplay, but it would delay your first cannon by 60s or so, meaning you should have your first units out and can kill the probe.

Well, Evolution Chambers are only for Spore Crawlers not Spine Crawlers, which require just a spawning pool, and Missile Turrents only defend air, which you aren't going to see in the first 3 minutes anyway.  Unfortunately having a forge require a gateway would make the forge fast expand build quite a bit less possible.  And frankly on the 2 player maps where this stuff is possible, you're best off just sending out your worker that is going to build your first pylon/supply depot around your base to make sure nothing is being built there.  For Zerg, overlords can give you plenty of sight in your own base early in the game

The real reason this is so effective in some games is because newer players are concentrating so hard on "ok, 9 supply, build my first pylon, send the probe out at 75 minerals" and their focus isn't on stuff like scouting their base because they have to spend so much effort on build order earlier in the game.  Once players get this opening stuff down, the scouting becomes much easier and this sort of in base cannon rush/gateway rush becomes a lot less of a problem.

[slog]

someone should write (in a printable format) a "When you  scout X, it means Y".

[jakonovski]

I think that for me, right now, the holy grail of SC2 is pincer attacks. Like the one in that Korean video. It's so beautiful it brings a tear to my eye. Whenever I try that I just fuck up and lose.

[Soulflame]

someone should write (in a printable format) a "When you  scout X, it means Y".

I'd add ", and to counter it, build Z."

[K9]

Yeah, cannon rushing is retarded, and although it is beatable, it's rarely straightforward.

The best thing they could do would be to make Engineering Bays, Evolution Chambers and Forges require Barracks, Spawning Pool and Gateway respectively. This would have very little impact on gameplay, but it would delay your first cannon by 60s or so, meaning you should have your first units out and can kill the probe.

Well, Evolution Chambers are only for Spore Crawlers not Spine Crawlers, which require just a spawning pool, and Missile Turrents only defend air, which you aren't going to see in the first 3 minutes anyway.  Unfortunately having a forge require a gateway would make the forge fast expand build quite a bit less possible.  And frankly on the 2 player maps where this stuff is possible, you're best off just sending out your worker that is going to build your first pylon/supply depot around your base to make sure nothing is being built there.  For Zerg, overlords can give you plenty of sight in your own base early in the game

The real reason this is so effective in some games is because newer players are concentrating so hard on "ok, 9 supply, build my first pylon, send the probe out at 75 minerals" and their focus isn't on stuff like scouting their base because they have to spend so much effort on build order earlier in the game.  Once players get this opening stuff down, the scouting becomes much easier and this sort of in base cannon rush/gateway rush becomes a lot less of a problem.

Well, the point of putting the change across the board would be to dampen the complaints about this being a direct nerf to protoss. As for the Forge FE, on the few maps where that's viable you can do double gateway to much the same effect. It's not a common build anyway from what I have seen.

The problem with cannon rushing is that it is easy to miss it, especially since pylons can spread energy up cliffs. You don't even need to drop the first pylon in the base, you just need to hide your probe, which against even reasonable opponents is not all that hard.

Yeah, those are an arse.

Zealot rushes are almost worse as toss because the only real way you're going to beat it is to defend with a 2 gate until you can break it.  I almost welcome the other guy going voidrays.  Sure beats a contest of who can 4 gate harder.

At least with a terran you can wall in.  In fact, the second you scout his base and you see something goofy, complete that wall-in no matter what.

Yeah, the only problem with Zealots is that they are slow. When you close the rush distance they're pretty fucking powerful. Being turtled inside your own base is rarely fun though.


On an unrelated note, 200/200 for zealot legs is still stupid. Especially since conc shells, stim, zerling speed and blink are all a lot cheaper.

[Malakili]

someone should write (in a printable format) a "When you  scout X, it means Y".

I'd add ", and to counter it, build Z."

Unfortunately its rarely that simple.  The list would quickly grow to the point of being almost useless.  Instead of thinking in terms of counters and builds, think in terms of broader concepts.   If the opponent is building lots of infantry as Terran, you know he has a pretty mobile army, so things like keeping your army in good position to defend is a high priority.  If the opponent is going mech as Terran, you now he will be pretty immobile, so you can exploit that by harassing a lot and keeping him with either a split army, or able to catch him out of position.

I mean, sure there are some things that are pretty clear cut: If you scout protoss and he has only a pylon in his base, hes building gateways  in your base or near your base, get units FAST.   If you scout and he only has a forge in his base, hes going to cannon rush or cannon contain you.  

If you start to try and think of having plans for EVERY individual unit or build the enemy is going for, you'll be overwhelmed.  Instead, think in broader strokes, and then you can refine it later once you have a handle on most situations.

[K9]

Actually learning what does not work as a counter is often vastly more useful than learning the things that do.

For example I learned the lard way that an army of Hydralisks is useless against banshee or mutaling harass strategies as Hydras are just so damn slow.

[jakonovski]

How many Marines does it take to kill a cannon anyway? I've only faced the cannon rush twice and both times they got it shooting me before I could figure out what was going on.

[K9]

Probably four, but that assumes you're only dealing with a single cannon. You ideally want to suicide units onto the probe, then start taking out pylons, as they are a softer target than the cannons. This isn't very cost effective though.

[Malakili]

Probably four, but that assumes you're only dealing with a single cannon. You ideally want to suicide units onto the probe, then start taking out pylons, as they are a softer target than the cannons. This isn't very cost effective though.

Bring a few scvs off the line to take some shots and use marines to burn the pylon down

[K9]

The key is (like the korean guy in video 1 I posted up yesterday) to sit back and actually take some beating while you build up 4-5 marines. If you send your marines in 1-by-1 the shields will recharge between each atatck and you'll never get it down. It takes a bit of cool and restraint to accept that though.

[Malakili]

The key is (like the korean guy in video 1 I posted up yesterday) to sit back and actually take some beating while you build up 4-5 marines. If you send your marines in 1-by-1 the shields will recharge between each atatck and you'll never get it down. It takes a bit of cool and restraint to accept that though.

Oh definitely, you can sustain a lot more damage than you think most of the time.  And remember if they are going for this they are basically all in.  If you defend this, you're in great shape even if you lost some things.

[Malakili]

Funny, I JUST played a game where they other guy tried to cheese me, so I saved the replay to post here. 

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=139548


Here is my thought process (spoiler in case you want to read after you watch)

[Ironwood]

If you're not spreading the creep as a Zerg player, play another race.  You're crap.

Get those creep tumours and spare overseers working for you.  You'll be amazed at how quickly even Ultralisks can shit their arse over the map.  If your base is still being harrassed at that point, you've either not spread the creep or you haven't researched burrow.

I watched one of the better players lay some overseer jizz down and then put 3 spine crawlers on it.  Instant choke point.  It was awesome.

[jakonovski]

I've been looking at my average APM during a game, it's about 20, ie. half that of my opponents. I guess I'm a big picture kind of guy. In other news, how fucking awesome is Planetary Fortress. I made an early gold ore expansion with PF and it took out an enemy medevac drop just like that. We ended up attacking at the same time and taking out each others' mains, he might well have beat me if it weren't for two very large guns on top of a house.

 

[Ironwood]

PF are everywhere at the moment; they're way strong.  I suspect we might see them get nerfed just a little.  If you have your SCVs repairing, it's golden.

[Malakili]

I've been looking at my average APM during a game, it's about 20, ie. half that of my opponents. I guess I'm a big picture kind of guy. In other news, how fucking awesome is Planetary Fortress. I made an early gold ore expansion with PF and it took out an enemy medevac drop just like that. We ended up attacking at the same time and taking out each others' mains, he might well have beat me if it weren't for two very large guns on top of a house.

APM isn't really really about hand speed, despite  popular belief.  Anyone that types well performs way more actions per minute than Starcraft players.  Its about remembering to do stuff and training muscle memory to hit the right keys at the right time.  Now, that is far from trivial, but my point is, if you are only doing 20 things per minute its a memory problem and not a hand speed problem.  

Also, yeah, Planetary Fortresses are really good for stuff like a gold expansion, and in fact, I've seen terran players set them up at choke points as stationary defense late in the game when they have lots of income but not much room under the supply cap.

[jakonovski]

Yah, my low APM is probably because I still have to stop to think every once in a while. I also think a lot of player pad their number by microing units by frenzied clicking, the point of which I never saw.

[Malakili]

Yah, my low APM is probably because I still have to stop to think every once in a while. I also think a lot of player pad their number by microing units by frenzied clicking, the point of which I never saw.

Oh yeah, I'm sure they do.   I like to think of it this way:  High APM doesn't make you a good player, but good players have high APM.  Now, there are varying definitions of "good" and "high" and it isn't really my point to debate that.  I just think that there are a lot of misconceptions about APM out there and its one of my pet peeves in the RTS scene.

[Ginaz]

I really do suck at this game.  I got all the way up to #2 in my Bronze then I lost like 10 in a row and ended up #14.  I was pretty much curb stomped in all of them, too.  Most of the time I lost to an early rush of lower level units, like marines or zerglings.  I'd put a defence up at the entrance to my base, usually 2 or 3 bunkers full of marines, but they'd still overrun me.  

[jakonovski]

A good rule of thumb that works for me is, if you play only defensively, you've already lost.

[Samwise]

Turrents

Haha, that brings back some memories.  

[Ginaz]

Turrents

Haha, that brings back some memories.  

I remember people in swg kept calling turrets turrents, even pronoucing them as "turrents" in vent.

[Rasix]

I really do suck at this game.  I got all the way up to #2 in my Bronze then I lost like 10 in a row and ended up #14.  I was pretty much curb stomped in all of them, too.  Most of the time I lost to an early rush of lower level units, like marines or zerglings.  I'd put a defence up at the entrance to my base, usually 2 or 3 bunkers full of marines, but they'd still overrun me.  

3 bunkers is 6 marines/scvs or 2 barracks you could have.  Building too many defensive structures tends to put you in a massive hole.

[Ginaz]

A good rule of thumb that works for me is, if you play only defensively, you've already lost.

I wasn't really playing defensively.  I normally just put a few basic defenses down (like chocking off the entrance to my base with bunker and marines) in the beginning.  At the start, I get all my scv's mining then I crank out more of them until I get to 8 or 9.  I then send one of them off to scout, another to make a depot or 2, then another to put down a barracks.  All the while I'm making more scv's to mine.  Once the bunker is done, I make a bunker and start on marines to fill it and another one at the entrance to my base.  The problem is that by the time I get the bunkers full, the other guy has already rushed me and gets inside my base.  I'm not very fast, but all of this takes place in the first few minutes.  I usually don't even have time to put down a factory before I get rushed.

And whats up with almost everyone playing Terran?  The only reason I play as Terran is because I'm more familiar with them having played the single player.

[Ginaz]

I really do suck at this game.  I got all the way up to #2 in my Bronze then I lost like 10 in a row and ended up #14.  I was pretty much curb stomped in all of them, too.  Most of the time I lost to an early rush of lower level units, like marines or zerglings.  I'd put a defence up at the entrance to my base, usually 2 or 3 bunkers full of marines, but they'd still overrun me.  

3 bunkers is 6 marines/scvs or 2 barracks you could have.  Building too many defensive structures tends to put you in a massive hole.

Hmmm.  Maybe I'll try it without the bunkers to start with.  I'm just used to having them I guess.

[Rasix]

And whats up with almost everyone playing Terran?  The only reason I play as Terran is because I'm more familiar with them having played the single player.

That and they're the perceived OP race at the moment.

You should be using your structures to wall-in your choke (ie supply depot(s) and a barracks).  Remember, your depots go up and down.

[K9]

Also, yeah, Planetary Fortresses are really good for stuff like a gold expansion, and in fact, I've seen terran players set them up at choke points as stationary defense late in the game when they have lots of income but not much room under the supply cap.

You really don't need more than two comsats in the mid-late game. Once you have two all your subsequent command centres should be planetary fortresses. Obviously it's not a hard rule, but past three comsats you hit serious diminishing returns on mule efficiency vs the number of patches you are actually mining, and you rarely need that much scanning.

Planetary fortresses as static defenses is something I have seen pro players do. For 650 minerals and 150 gas it's a pretty awesome unit in it's own right. Surrounded by bio and tanks it's a fucking monster.

If you're not spreading the creep as a Zerg player, play another race.  You're crap.

Get those creep tumours and spare overseers working for you.  You'll be amazed at how quickly even Ultralisks can shit their arse over the map.  If your base is still being harrassed at that point, you've either not spread the creep or you haven't researched burrow.

I watched one of the better players lay some overseer jizz down and then put 3 spine crawlers on it.  Instant choke point.  It was awesome.

My only caveat to this in ZvZ. I agree that not spreading creep in ZvT or ZvP is a massive mistake, basically hamstringing the effectiveness of hydralisks and ultralisks. In ZvZ however too much creep can be a boon for your opponent as well as you, so I'm not always in such a rush.

I'm getting much better at using overlord vomit to build paths to expansions. There's really no reason not to have them spewing creep, and I think it is making the most of little abilities like that which separates me from better players, and ditto all the way on down too. I really want to get better at using the Overseer's contaminate, it seems like it could be a really annoying ability when used right.

[Ironwood]

Changelings are also fucking love.  LOVE.

The only reason not to spread the creep from overseers is that pissing noise it makes that, after five minutes, makes you wanna go yourself.