Elemental - Now Fallen Enchantress

[Stormwaltz]

A site I've never heard of has an interview with Paxton and Shaffer on Fallen Enchantress.

There are three main focuses for Fallen Enchantress that we really wanted to invest a lot of attention and design time in:

1.    Tactical Combat - Units and enemies have more strategic abilities, strengths and weaknesses. Every monster has been reviewed to be as strategically (and conceptually) interesting as possible.  Elemental Lords are huge multi-tile monsters that are devastating to all but the most powerful champions and armies. Some monsters are unique in the world, setting up boss-type battles that give the game an RPG feel.

2.    The World - A lot of time is going into making the world as interesting as possible. It’s a dangerous world; many of your early explorers will not make it back. But those who do will have resources, riches, and new recruits that make the risk worthwhile.

As important as making the world worth exploring is [making it] interesting to explore. Though it’s good to know that there are iron deposits in the next valley, we also want that valley to be filled with wilderness areas, sites, creatures, and opportunities for adventure that are new to even experienced players.

3.    Magic - Magic should be as effective a path to victory as creating armies. A player that is sitting on a large supply of mana and has invested in magic should be able to change the course of the game, much as a player sitting on a nuclear weapon stockpile can in modern games. Magic should be available earlier, have a larger impact, and do more interesting things.

http://www.gamezone.com/editorials/item/interview_with_derek_paxton_and_jon_schafer_of_fallen_enchantress/

[Ice Cream Emperor]

4. We thought we would actually make a game that would be fun to play.

I mean they're not describing cool perks and innovations here, they're talking about the genre baseline. Magic should be effective? Really? Exploring should be interesting? No way!

I don't care how shitty the code is: the original game's design just beggars belief. It is impossible to imagine anyone involved in making it ever thinking that it was fun to play. Even if they were high on ecstacy and rubbing the code all over their naked chests it is not conceivable that they felt this was a good game.

All they had to do was reskin Master of Magic and manage to make their version half as good and they would have been fine. Personally I'm not convinced any of them have ever even played Master of Magic.

I didn't even play the game until after Kael signed on, and it was this horrible sinking feeling in my stomach when I realised that the author of FFH2 had somehow hitched his horse to this of all buggies. Maybe Fallen Enchantress will be okay, or even good, but that just means that if he had gotten his shot anywhere else then it would have been fucking fantastic.

[Sky]

To be optimistic (which I will attempt until FE shows me otherwise), one of the toughest parts of FFH for Kael was always making things work in a game not built for the things he was doing. Even though he had a bit of input into BtS, it's nothing like having in-house code slaves you can chain to your feature list. Also, no more stealing art assets! While he certainly has to overcome a lot of skepticism, I think he's in a pretty good place to do so, and a company like Stardock has a lot more riding on him succeeding than a Firaxis would (I imagine they'd see him as a Colonization-type project).

Sounds like they've nipped a few things from HoMaM, too. Not having played Elemental, it sounds more HoMaM than Civ.

[Merusk]

Elemental was more MoM/ MOO than HoMM.  Your individual units were individual units on the combat screen, rather than the picture of a unit - # designation for how many there are of HoMM.  The maps were also randomly generated for geography, location of towns, adventure points, etc, unlike HOMM.

Well, at least that's how it was when it was actually playable.  It's honestly the first game I've ever played that got worse the longer beta (and then release) went on.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Yeah, if it was a Heroes of Might & Magic wannabe then I just wouldn't give a shit -- really not a fan of those games, though it's possible I just played the wrong one(s).

As for having more control over art assets and coding -- this is where you not having played Elemental comes in. Seriously the most boring art and character modelling you have ever seen, and at least in terms of game mechanics I cannot think of a single thing that was remotely interesting in its implementation.

In other words, it is far too easy to imagine Kael being like 'make me a model of this incredibly unique and awesome shit I just thought up and sketched out for you!' and these people come back to him with like, the most generic shit imagineable. 'But look we made the dragon black! Most dragons are red!' 'I know you said it had fifteen arms but it was easier to give it four.' That is about the level of creativity/execution on display.

But okay, fine, let's be optimistic. Like I said I'd be happy with something half as good as MoM, and that does seem at least plausible.

[Lightstalker]

Hey, the 3-d world to cloth map transition was pretty cool.  Sure the implementation fell down a bit in that the two maps didn't (always) show the same information, but that was a cool art direction.  The cloth map with pewter army markers to push around was a good idea burried in a horribly produced game.

Very much wanted to be MoM, but fell even further than Age of Wonder from that mark.  The execution was just incomplete and/or poor all over the shop.  Plenty of work to do for this expansion to succeed.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Hey, the 3-d world to cloth map transition was pretty cool.  Sure the implementation fell down a bit in that the two maps didn't (always) show the same information, but that was a cool art direction.  The cloth map with pewter army markers to push around was a good idea burried in a horribly produced game.

Oh hey, you're right, that was pretty cool -- though not exactly something I ever remember using, which is presumably why I forgot about it, unlike all the other things I forgot about because they were dead boring. So okay, there was one creative thing out of ten thousand other things. HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL!

[Sky]

As for having more control over art assets and coding -- this is where you not having played Elemental comes in. Seriously the most boring art and character modelling you have ever seen, and at least in terms of game mechanics I cannot think of a single thing that was remotely interesting in its implementation.

To reverse it, have you played FFH2? All I'm hoping for is FFH3. The shitty models didn't hurt it a bit, and as for game mechanics...it looks like they're ripping the guts out of the original. The variety of game mechanics Kael was able to put into FFH, given the limitations of not having the code exposed for him to do so, is why I'm still optimistic despite anything to do with Stardock and Elemental.

[Modern Angel]

4. We thought we would actually make a game that would be fun to play.

I mean they're not describing cool perks and innovations here, they're talking about the genre baseline. Magic should be effective? Really? Exploring should be interesting? No way!

I don't care how shitty the code is: the original game's design just beggars belief. It is impossible to imagine anyone involved in making it ever thinking that it was fun to play. Even if they were high on ecstacy and rubbing the code all over their naked chests it is not conceivable that they felt this was a good game.

Precisely. This game is terrible and nobody's going to fix it. The guys brought in to fix it are saying shit about basic functionality, not what's going to be awesome enough to get people back.

Civ IV was several magnitudes more flexible with what Kael could do with it. This is never, ever going to be a good game.

[Stormwaltz]

Stardock has been fairly up front about how they're making Fallen Enchantress a stand-alone because Elemental is too broken to be truly fixable through patching or expansion.

The impression I get is that Fallen Enchantress should be to Elemental as The Witcher is to Neverwinter Nights; the same core engine, but radically retooled.

[Modern Angel]

We'll see. I remain massively skeptical. Stardock just isn't as good a company as people make them out to be from a quality standpoint. They release in niches where the pickings are slim which I think inflates their popularity well past what it should be. I don't see one dude changing that.

[Stormwaltz]

But they have two dudes!   

[Ice Cream Emperor]

To reverse it, have you played FFH2? All I'm hoping for is FFH3.

Yes, I have. FFH2 looked and played better. This despite all the clunky implementations of everything. The art was also better. Yes, including the models. Yes, including the poorly stitched stolen .jpgs. Obviously, I would rather the art not be stolen, but Stardock obviously could not afford to hire even one person talented enough to paint images worthy of Magic: The Gathering cards.

Obviously, there will be some improvements over FFH2 by default, in terms of for example how some of the spells worked. You will have to press less keys. But that is about all I would reasonably expect.

And for the record I still don't understand why anyone liked Galactic Civilizations, either, but at least when shit in space looks boring you don't notice quite as easily.

In any case, you're right that it's ultimately about mechanics. But I doubt Kael will be able to exert the same amount of control over a pre-existing studio than he did over his pet Civ IV mod project.

[Modern Angel]

Bless you. I thought I loved GalCiv2 when it came out because there just wasn't anything else out there. It was reasonably well crafted but then I realized just how fucking BORING the game was. Dull as dishwater. No spark. Even the tech trees were gray... Plasma Doodad I, Plasma Doodad II, etc etc.

And that's really what I'm talking about. They've never released a game anyone would think is good if it had real competition. Sins of a Solar Empire was the closest they got to a good game and it was still not great. Demigod or whatever it was called was a complete disaster. So I'm always puzzled when people act like Stardock is a company that has its shit together because I'm just not seeing it.

[Arrrgh]

Bless you. I thought I loved GalCiv2 when it came out because there just wasn't anything else out there. It was reasonably well crafted but then I realized just how fucking BORING the game was. Dull as dishwater. No spark. Even the tech trees were gray... Plasma Doodad I, Plasma Doodad II, etc etc.

And that's really what I'm talking about. They've never released a game anyone would think is good if it had real competition. Sins of a Solar Empire was the closest they got to a good game and it was still not great. Demigod or whatever it was called was a complete disaster. So I'm always puzzled when people act like Stardock is a company that has its shit together because I'm just not seeing it.

Demigod's multiplayer connectivity was screwed up at launch and for too long afterwards. It's fine now.

I still play occasionally with friends. It's fun and far better than most of the exact clone attempt DOTA wannabes.  Well worth a look if you ever see it in the bargain bin. 

[Sky]

ICE, you're starting to strawman a bit. I don't think anyone here is saying Stardock is a good studio. I thought GalCiv was a nice diversion at the indie level and never played GalCiv2 because it's still too goddamned expensive imo. Hell, I'm not even talking about Elemental.

I'm willing to give Kael the benefit of the doubt, and Jon seems to be sticking to UI stuff, and Civ V's UI was slick as a greased hog on a rainy sunday afternoon. I guess I still don't understand the f13 mindset of doooooomcasting things that could be really cool without waiting to see, you know, how they turn out. Maybe I've become an optimist after being around you lot for so long  

[JWIV]

Bless you. I thought I loved GalCiv2 when it came out because there just wasn't anything else out there. It was reasonably well crafted but then I realized just how fucking BORING the game was. Dull as dishwater. No spark. Even the tech trees were gray... Plasma Doodad I, Plasma Doodad II, etc etc.

And that's really what I'm talking about. They've never released a game anyone would think is good if it had real competition. Sins of a Solar Empire was the closest they got to a good game and it was still not great. Demigod or whatever it was called was a complete disaster. So I'm always puzzled when people act like Stardock is a company that has its shit together because I'm just not seeing it.

Sins is a fantastic game!  It's also however not made by Stardock in anyway.  It's done by Ironclad Games, and only published by Stardock.    GalCiv though is probably the best example, since that was all Stardock all the time. 

[Lantyssa]

I guess I still don't understand the f13 mindset of doooooomcasting things that could be really cool without waiting to see, you know, how they turn out. Maybe I've become an optimist after being around you lot for so long

Well, almost everyone in this thread was super excited about Elemental, and we know how that turned out...

[Modern Angel]

But we saw how it turned out. It's not as though those of us doomcasting the reboot are basing this on nothing. One, FFH2 didn't really do a lot for me. Two, Stardock. Three, and most importantly, there's a strong argument that the base game, even the basic engine they made, is so flawed it's not salvageable.

And let's assume for a second that it is. It was niche as fuck to begin with and now, a year or two after the first one and miles of bad press behind it, they're banking on recouping what they're spending on two games? I'm definitely not buying that.

[tazelbain]

These guys burned though a massive amount of goodwill, took out a goodwill loan and burnt through that.  The game did get worse as development went on.  These people clearly have a fucked development process that no priority on making a functional game let a lone a good game.  The idea that a couple of community stars can change this is silly.

[Sky]

One, FFH2 didn't really do a lot for me. Two, Stardock. Three, and most importantly, there's a strong argument that the base game, even the basic engine they made, is so flawed it's not salvageable.

I'm uncertain as to why you're posting in this thread, given that.

The operative phrase is indeed "we saw how it turned out." Let's see how this turns out.

Maybe you guys should be less quick to jump on new games before the reviews come out, yeah?

Anyway, thanks to Stormy for the update. I'll check in to see any further updates, but I'll check out of the silly doomcasting discussion. Enjoy.

[Modern Angel]

Because I love MoM and AoW.

Perhaps I'm not being clear here. You're saying this is a "new" game and nobody can really know what it's going to be like. That's just absurd. It's not a new game and Stardock isn't some studio without a track record to judge. None of this is coming out of a vacuum here.

I will bear this in mind the next time a Bill Roper game comes out and you're first on the hate train (with me), though. After all, it's a new game with new people and how could anyone tell burpFARTsigh.

[Soln]

reinstalled FFH2 and Orbus and fFF mod mods last night.  Just life absorbing.  Love it.  I only still watch any info about the FE game and crazy BW for Kael. 

If the reviews for FE are good (i.e. here and Qt3 and metacritic) I'll buy it.  But otherwise, there are a metric-super-gulp-size-ton of great games out there to pay for and play.  I'm rooting for Kael but I still wish he was working on a commercial version of FFH3.

[Sky]

Ditto. On the one hand I want to buy it at full retail just to pay Kael for the hundreds of hours I've gotten out of FFH2. On the other hand, just because I'm staying optimistic doesn't mean I'm not realistic :)

[Ingmar]

ICE, you're starting to strawman a bit. I don't think anyone here is saying Stardock is a good studio. I thought GalCiv was a nice diversion at the indie level and never played GalCiv2 because it's still too goddamned expensive imo. Hell, I'm not even talking about Elemental.

I'm willing to give Kael the benefit of the doubt, and Jon seems to be sticking to UI stuff, and Civ V's UI was slick as a greased hog on a rainy sunday afternoon. I guess I still don't understand the f13 mindset of doooooomcasting things that could be really cool without waiting to see, you know, how they turn out. Maybe I've become an optimist after being around you lot for so long  

Unsalvageable. I don't think this is the usual f13 EVERYTHING IS GOING TO SUCK honestly, I just think this is a salt the earth and never go back failure. Elemental was that bad. And you know I'm normally one of the optimists here!

[Ice Cream Emperor]

ICE, you're starting to strawman a bit. I don't think anyone here is saying Stardock is a good studio.

Yes, fair enough. I was mostly just venting -- because I played that game awhile ago and it really was just infuriatingly bad, given how much I love the games it should theoretically have been based on -- and once you get on a roll it's fun to keep going.

But it's true, Kael did make an awesome game more or less out of scrap (and a very solid engine, to be fair) in FFH2, so if he manages to even just make the same game again it will certainly be worth playing.

[Margalis]

Fool me once, etc etc.

[Stormwaltz]

Wise Fwom Your Gwave!

Brad Wardell posted a five minute video from Fallen Enchantress.

http://www.screencast.com/t/bYqzAuZw9T9

[Reg]

It looks exactly the same as Elemental.  And that's not a good thing.

[rattran]

Too little, way too late it seems to me.

[Ingmar]

It looks exactly the same as Elemental.  And that's not a good thing.

Yes, exactly this. HOMM VI has more or less scratched this itch for me anyway, there's not a snowball's chance that I'm going to spend any money on giving Stardock another chance.

[sinij]

Stardock promised free expansions to anyone who preordered Elemental. Despite enjoying Elemental, even in its flawed post-release state, I haven't bothered to check on them after they sold Impulse.

Nothing good can come from a company that pulls stunts like that. Gamers rights my ass.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I passed on it originally but I'd still buy an updated version of Master of Magic / Age of Wonders if they could ever get it working properly and with interesting content...

[Sky]

I'll be buying it. The way I look at it, Kael wouldn't accept donations for FFH2, and I've sunk hundreds of hours into that game. If I get two hours out of FE, I'll still feel like I got my money's worth. Probably doesn't make sense, but there it is.

Hopefully it will be on steam. I look at dumping Impulse as a good thing, it's what kept me from buying galciv2.

[sinij]

GalCiv2 (especially with all expacs) is awesome game, and Impulse, it its pre-sale version was very un-obnoxious, plus unlike Steam you don't even have to run it or have it installed if you don't like it. You are missing out for all the wrong reasons.

Plus GalacticCiv2 IS now on Steam. Go. Buy it.