Walking Dead

[Tannhauser]

I think the scientist is mildly autistic and is full of shit.  Also, I thought the two black folks were going only to Terminus.  Average episode, though it was nice to have a 'down' episode after the shattering Carole episode.

Episode.

[Ironwood]

I'm not going to argue that this show has great writing, and in fact even defending small bits of it here leaves me feeling a tad unclean. It is currently better writing though than any of the previous seasons and most of the comic as well, not that either of those set the bar high. This was absolutely one of the weaker episodes, I just disagree with some of your reasons as to why.

Yeah, it was just a shame sitting there expecting 'better' only to be reminded of the Farm.   

[Cyrrex]

The problem with hillbilly scientist guy is that if I were in that world with him under those conditions, I would not be able to keep my yap shut.  "Hey, you do and say a bunch of stupid shit.  You look and act fucking retarded, and none of the things that come outta your mouth inspire me to believe that you know your ass from a hole in the ground.  I am pretty sure that in a battle of wits, or a battle of anything for that matter, you will come up short against an ordinary person.   So therefore, prove to me that you know what the hell is going on before I use the butt of my M4 to knock your mullet clean off your odd shaped head."

I don't think I am alone.  The stakes are too high to take any of this at face value, so it annoys me that otherwise good characters are just going along with it.

That said, the writing and acting for this season has for the most part been really good.  That last episode was a total exception.  And the Terminus plotline also sucks.

[Threash]

The first "it's classified" should have earned him a bullet to the head.

[Ironwood]

Nah, just derision.  I mean, I totally understand hope, really I do, but in my experience it doesn't come mullet shaped.

[HaemishM]

I'm not going to argue that this show has great writing, and in fact even defending small bits of it here leaves me feeling a tad unclean. It is currently better writing though than any of the previous seasons and most of the comic as well, not that either of those set the bar high. This was absolutely one of the weaker episodes, I just disagree with some of your reasons as to why.

It was a weak episode because it was a set up episode. It was moving all the very disparate pieces into place for a finale. They had to take some stretches to get everyone back in time for supper (whoever supper may end up being). I imagine it might have been better if they had split it out over 2-3 more episodes so each segment of characters could breathe, but they didn't. If it means we have great episodes like the one with Carol and Tyrese in between sometime lackluster episodes filled with convenience and the most boneheaded of decisions, I'm ok with that because those other episodes make it worthwhile.

[angry.bob]

The first "it's classified" should have earned him a bullet to the head.

This is an absolute indicator of bullshit in the real world. People with actual "classified" anything never put themselves into a position to reveal they have it. Also, on the outside chance that they're going to give this guy some actual important stuff for the plot of the show there's no reason I can think of not to share it with the ranking military guy at the least.

I haven't watched the show since he went full auto on the truck's gas tank. That episode I could totally believe he was a sperglord scientist. I've worked with more than a few guys who were smart enough to set things on fire with their brain and did magic in their specialty, but stood around mumbling and doing senseless, awkward things when they were not actively working.

[MahrinSkel]

The first "it's classified" should have earned him a bullet to the head.

This is an absolute indicator of bullshit in the real world. People with actual "classified" anything never put themselves into a position to reveal they have it. Also, on the outside chance that they're going to give this guy some actual important stuff for the plot of the show there's no reason I can think of not to share it with the ranking military guy at the least.

I haven't watched the show since he went full auto on the truck's gas tank. That episode I could totally believe he was a sperglord scientist. I've worked with more than a few guys who were smart enough to set things on fire with their brain and did magic in their specialty, but stood around mumbling and doing senseless, awkward things when they were not actively working.

Go to Hunstville AL sometime, you'll meet a whole different species of geek: Redneck rocket scientists.  It's impossible to describe, you just have to see it, and that guy would not look at all out of place there.

--Dave

[Cyrrex]

That may be true, but the point is that there is no way a person like that makes it to a place in life where he has classified information on why the world is being taken over by zombies.  Not remotely believable. 

[jgsugden]

To remind people: Rick determined that 'everyone being infected' was classified information that should not be shared.  Whether you agree with it or not personally, there are reasonable arguments for not sharing information in a crisis (or apocalypse) situation.

Personally, in a zombie (or other) apocalypse, I'd be amongst the crew that gave all benefit of the doubt to supporting people claiming to have a fix.  I might think someone is likely full of it, but if there were any reasonable argument remaining that the person had a fix, I'd be throwing my effort behind making that fix happen, regardless of whether they shared information with me, had a mullet, or were a poster child for aspergers.  It is a cost benefit / probability thing: A small chance of a massive fix is worth too much to toss away.  Of course, once the argument goes from 'a reasonable argument' to 'no reasonable argument', there would be a price to pay.

[Tannhauser]

OK, but I wouldn't travel from Houston to Georgia all the way to D.C. because some mullet head said 'it's classified'.  I'd need more than that.  A lot more.

[Cyrrex]

To remind people: Rick determined that 'everyone being infected' was classified information that should not be shared.  Whether you agree with it or not personally, there are reasonable arguments for not sharing information in a crisis (or apocalypse) situation.

Um, Rick was horribly and dangerously wrong in keeping that to himself.  Mullet head keeping a potential world saving solution to himself is not only blatantly irresponsible, but pretty much grounds for beating the information out of him as far as I can tell.

[Setanta]

I just started re-reading the comics. The Tyrese and Dale and Andra of the TV series pale into insignificance compared to their comic counterparts.

[Ironwood]

To remind people: Rick determined that 'everyone being infected' was classified information that should not be shared.  Whether you agree with it or not personally, there are reasonable arguments for not sharing information in a crisis (or apocalypse) situation.

Um, Rick was horribly and dangerously wrong in keeping that to himself.  Mullet head keeping a potential world saving solution to himself is not only blatantly irresponsible, but pretty much grounds for beating the information out of him as far as I can tell.

Yeah, it doesn't matter a shit if you're not going to understand it, getting that kind of information in as many heads as you can is just important if some zombie decides to eat mullet.  There's realistic and then there's unrealistic and then there's this shit.

Also, I agree that Rick holding that information was criminally wrong ;  if you're thinking you're ok when not bitten, you're in for a surprise and it's not a fair one.  He was a tit.

[jgsugden]

You have some very reasonable arguments as to why Rick was wrong.

However, there are also very reasonable arguments that he was right.  Jenner, the guy that understodd the secret better than anybody, killed himself - and that decision was likely strongly influenced by what he knew.  Protect and Serve Rick was scared that telling people might make them lose all hope.  He wasn't willing to risk lives by telling people.

Disagreeing with a view does not make it unreasonable.  The world (both the real world and the world of the Walking Dead) is not that black and white.  If you don't get that idea, I think you'll find much of the show very frustrating as they pretty much hang their hat on finding difficult decisions for characters to make.  This show is all about ' no easy answers'.

Go back for Merle?  How to deal with the people with a deadly contagious disease?  Trust new people?  Psycho little girl?  Kill Carl for being annoying?  Hard decisions are everywhere.

[Ironwood]

Dead is Dead.  It's not going to make me lose hope about an infection that does something to me after death but only then.  All that matters is the survivors need to know how to change burial patterns.

I don't really think that's why Bunker chap gave up.  Bear in mind, didn't he operate on his wife or some shit ?  I think he was just giving up hope because of, well, all the fucking zombies shambling about.

Though I am mindful of the 'Free Information' operators in WWZ who topped themselves, so who knows.

It's not the black and white that gets me, it's the utter inconsistency shown and the established characters suddenly being retarded for the sake of dramatic tension.  It's not just THIS show either.  I hate it when any show does it.  (See my comment on Donna in the Suits thread, for example.)

Also, I find it ironic that the hard decisions you list... aren't.  Maybe I'm just a psychopath or something.  (Except Carl.  Carl is an interesting question.  Lori, however was fairly clear cut.)

[Cyrrex]

Yeah, the only reason bunker guy decided to live was to attempt to honor his wife's wishes.  Once that was impossible (remember the lab was auto-incinerated), he killed himself just like many around him chose to do.

[jgsugden]

...Maybe I'm just a psychopath or something...

I guess some things are black and white. 

Forget Jenner, then.  He is a tree.  We're looking for the forest.  There were rational, reasonable reasons to keep that information private.  You're still arguing whether it was the right decision - and my point is that there are reasonable arguments - whether you agree with them or not - to keep it a secret. 

As for inconsistency in characters - part of that is writing inconsistency, but to be honest, I don't usually get bothered by inconsistency as most people I know are inconsistent.  Constantly.  If I see a character that is consistent, I often find them to be bland, boring and flat. 

Ironwood, each of the questions I listed (except Carl) has strong positivies and negatives.

Merle: Leave a man to die that you physically put at risk or risk more lives to save a jerk?  Contagious disease: A cure may be on the way, but every moment they're alive is a chance for the unknown disease to spread...either way, people that might live could die based on your decision (remember they do not have any idea how the zombie plague spread to everyone).  Trust new people: If you drive them away, you lose their potential strength.  Psycho little girl: When was the moment she had to die, or could she have been restrained and had someone continue to work with her?  You may have opinions on each of those questions, but there are hundreds of thousands of fans out there that would disagree with your answers.  That is what they strive to create on the show - hard choices.

[TheWalrus]

As far as the Daryl situation goes, I don't think following the character pattern he would continue to hang with that crew. I think the writers are setting him up to show himself that he's better than his brother, (Staying on with the governor, and being his club) and he's not a nothing like the Daryl/Beth episode had him spouting.

[HaemishM]

That is what they strive to create on the show - hard choices.

What Ironwood is getting at is a lot of these "hard" choices just ended up being fuckstupid choices. The one about Rick not telling people that you're a zombie no matter what you do... that was a stupid choice that could quite clearly get people killed.

[jgsugden]

...What Ironwood is getting at is a lot of these "hard" choices just ended up being fuckstupid choices. The one about Rick not telling people that you're a zombie no matter what you do... that was a stupid choice that could quite clearly get people killed.

At the risk of repeating myself: That is an opinion, but there are others.  You are likely in the majority in your view, but there are reasonable arguments against telling people the secret, especially for a man that made a career of protecting people who just watched someone he knows toss their life away because she thought the world was too bleak.

[Cyrrex]

You keep saying that.  Name one that we will considerable reasonable enough to outweigh the possibility of getting your friends killed.

[apocrypha]

People make mistakes. We've all - all - made choices at some point in our lives that when we look back at them realise were wrong, sometimes stupid, occasionally dangerous.

TV is full of characters who are perfect, who always make the right decision, who have no need of hindsight. I have many issues with many of the characters in this show, but the fact that they're often mistaken, stupid, wrong is actually starting to strike me as more believable than all the Sherlocks in the world.

[Cyrrex]

That's fine.  I don't have an issue with Rick making the mistake of keeping that to himself.  He probably did it so he would sap his friends of all hope (and for dramatic reveal reasons).  But it was still a mistake, and could have been a very costly one.  I get why he did it, but that does not make it reasonable or excusable.  Believable?  Sure, I suppose.  I can see someone making that mistake.

So that is one thing.  It is a whole different matter to let the mullet sporting savior of the world keep that information to himself on some premise of confidentiality.  The people around him have endured way too much bullshit to let that pass.  I was not kidding before - it would be far more believable for them to tie him up to a chair and get that information out of him at all costs.  It is flat out retarded to keep those eggs in a single basket, and people would act accordingly.  NOT BELIEVABLE.

Edit to add:  A better way for them to do this, presuming mullet guy is actually on to something, would have been the same way that bunker guy told Rick.  Simply hide the information from the viewer somehow.  Let the characters know what is going on so that we can buy into the whole thing, without telling us exactly what it is. 

[Ironwood]

Except they can't do that for actual reasons we don't really want to get into here.

[Tebonas]

Not being Comic-spoilered I suspect Mullet Man is completely full of shit and there is nothing to explain off-screen. He sounds like somebody who plays at being smart and only gets away with it because he surrounds himself with dumb people. But maybe this is just bad acting and/or writing.

[Cyrrex]

Yeah, that's what I think, too.  Either way, I find it insane that nobody is calling his bluff.

[Setanta]

In the comics Andrea (still alive and a kick ass character) does question him at gunpoint

[Ironwood]

All I know is the TV Series triumphs when it moves away from the comics.

 

[jgsugden]

You keep saying that.  Name one that we will considerable reasonable enough to outweigh the possibility of getting your friends killed.

I just did. If you want more, go visit the message boards for WD from that era. There is only so far I will go to try to convince someone that their disagreement with a view does not render it inherently unreasonable.

[Cyrrex]

I guess our definition of reasonable differs then.  We can probably just leave it at that.

[jgsugden]

I guess our definition of reasonable differs then.  We can probably just leave it at that.

It shouldn't.  We have dictionaries.  It really comes down to someone looking at the facts before them and drawing a conclusion based upon it.  If they do, it is a reasonable decision/conclusion, even if the majority disagree with the result.

Here is a reasonable train of thought that might have been

"Gee, Jacqui just killed herself because she did not want to 'end up like Jim and Amy' (zombies).  Now, I know that we're all going to end up like them - zombies unless our brains are destroyed.  I can handle that information, but look at these people around me - they're terrified and just lost everything again when the CDC exploded.  And lost Jacqui.  My wife has been acting crazy - would she give up if she knew and put a bullet in her brain?

Well, what if I don't tell them yet?  What if I keep it a secret until we get to a place where we have a chance to breath and everyone feels more settled?  What is the risk?  The big risk is that someone dies from something other than a zombie bite and nobody knows to expect they'll turn.  But I'll know.  I can deal with it if it comes up before I decide it is time to tell them.  There is the risk that I get offed in such a way that I don't have a chance to warn them... but is that risk greater than the risk that one of them gives up and kills themself now?"

I think that Rick was wrong to do as he did, but he was also clearly being reasonable.

[Ironwood]

I can't say I wasn't warned.

[Merusk]

People make mistakes. We've all - all - made choices at some point in our lives that when we look back at them realise were wrong, sometimes stupid, occasionally dangerous.

TV is full of characters who are perfect, who always make the right decision, who have no need of hindsight. I have many issues with many of the characters in this show, but the fact that they're often mistaken, stupid, wrong is actually starting to strike me as more believable than all the Sherlocks in the world.

Which is all well and good so long as there are consequences from the stupid decisions that come back on the main character in time. GoT did this well as did Breaking Bad. Walking Dead won't kill off Rick, even if he waded into a zombie concert and decided crowd surfing was a good idea. Because COMICS. 

Rick is protected by plot armor from all his stupid which makes it just that much more aggravating, not compelling, that he's so stupid.

[apocrypha]

Yeah that's a good point.

You could argue that other people have paid for his mistakes and that that contributed to his brief flirtation with going off the deep end last season, but that would be being overly generous to the writing and he seems to have got better from Teh Crazy anyway.