The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings

[Job601]

The 'recent standard' is Dragon Age 2 which has the best (voice acted at least) English dialogue of any RPG I've ever played, so that may be working against them for me here.

I think the dialogue in this game if much better than in DA2.  In Dragon Age, and Bioware games in general, I always get the feeling that all the dialogue is very functional;  conversations are designed to present me with a particular moral conundrum or introduce a particular element of backstory.  Your companions talk to you as though they're writing in their diaries and everyone else is an opportunity to play the conversation minigame.  On the other hand, I find the dialogue in the Witcher relatively naturalistic and less calculated.

[Lantyssa]

All of this is why I've enjoyed (watching) the Witcher 2 more than DA2.

[Ingmar]

All of this is why I've enjoyed (watching) the Witcher 2 more than DA2.

Yes but I already knew you were broken. 

I admit I'm pretty much baffled by any reaction that thinks it even comes close writing/dialog-quality-wise, but not much point in going around a few more times. I will give it a couple more nights to grab me before I move it to the 'when I'm really bored maybe I'll grind through it' pile.

[tmp]

I admit I'm pretty much baffled by any reaction that thinks it even comes close writing/dialog-quality-wise, but not much point in going around a few more times.

Wait, i'm confused now. I could understand the praise for the quality of voice acting in DA2, but are you now also saying that the quality of writing in DA2 is high and/or much better than what the Witcher 2 offers? Or am i misreading it...

[Tarami]

Don't torture yourself on our behalf, eventhough I think it may very well deserve a couple of attempts if it doesn't stick the first time. There's no accounting for taste, however.

I think the moment that really won me over on the writing was the scenes when Foltest meets his children. Not original... but man, it's efficient.

- Go, Boussy.
- That's not my father.
- But it is your king.

[Ingmar]

I admit I'm pretty much baffled by any reaction that thinks it even comes close writing/dialog-quality-wise, but not much point in going around a few more times.

Wait, i'm confused now. I could understand the praise for the quality of voice acting in DA2, but are you now also saying that the quality of writing in DA2 is high and/or much better than what the Witcher 2 offers? Or am i misreading it...

Indeed I am. I would go so far as to say the dialogue writing (at least when translated into English) is well towards the bad end of the spectrum pretty much all the RPGs I've played in at least the last 5 years. It feels very stilted, a bit too TV-modern at times, and at other times it has a bit of very detectable non-native-English-speaker quality to it, like I'm listening to one of the German engineers at work. I'm sure a bunch of that is the translation and the delivery, I am still meaning to put it in German with English subtitles to see if that helps it get kind of a foreign film sort of flair to make up for it.

EDIT: I should say I *do* appreciate the generous use of profanity, that goes a long way on the 'feels like real speech' front and is something other games could stand to learn from.

[tmp]

Indeed I am. I would go so far as to say the dialogue writing (at least when translated into English) is well towards the bad end of the spectrum pretty much all the RPGs I've played in at least the last 5 years. It feels very stilted, a bit too TV-modern at times, and at other times it has a bit of very detectable non-native-English-speaker quality to it, like I'm listening to one of the German engineers at work. I'm sure a bunch of that is the translation and the delivery, I am still meaning to put it in German with English subtitles to see if that helps it get kind of a foreign film sort of flair to make up for it.

Hmm i would chalk up the non-native-speaker thing to the translation (as i don't experience it in the native version) so that would leave us with the stilted and too modern. The modern thing is to a degree caused by the original author -- one of the spins Sapkowski put on his universe was the mages having fairly modern knowledge of genetics etc.

But perhaps more importantly, don't both these remaining complaints apply very much to DA as well? I mean, i don't see it as much of a drawback myself, but if there's one consistent impression i get from DA dialogues whenever i play, it's how pretty much all characters use educated language and how all of it wouldn't be really out of place in any modern tv drama (minus the bits tied to the social system etc, obv.) And i ranted already how unnatural the DA2 dialogues can feel, so no need to repeat it... so overall, still puzzled -- if these are complaints about the Witcher 2 writing then fine, but then why would the DA2 writing be viewed as much better?

[Ingmar]

I'd have to go back and find specific examples of the things that I remember bugging me which is probably too much work.  

EDIT: I will say that I'm pretty sure if it was all one way or all the other it would bother me less, there are just these jarring swings between styles. (That also happens in DA2 occasionally when you are playing dick-mode Hawke, to be fair.)

[Xilren's Twin]

Yeah, so clearly I wasn't missing anything in terms of the combat, it's just more understanding the limitations of it and working around them with the tools you have.  There are some fights i try a few times and just have to walk a way from the game for a while lest i become too frustrated.  But usually when that happens, returning in another play session gets me through it the first or second time.  I did install the zero weight mod which has been a godsend, and dropped my graphic settings, which helped a lot for smooth flow.  Enjoying the exploration even if it doesnt always make sense i.e. going out at night from flotsom and getting attacked my giant insects, nekkers, and squirrels all at the same time like their a team.

Gotta love the little side conversation you overheard, including the "plough em all" song. :)

Worth playing if flawed.

[lamaros]

The writing in the DA games isn't bad, it is normally quite to very good (for a computer game). It's just very often in service to retarded plots and is very cliche, so it can only go so far.

The Witcher games suffer from being good in instances, but without necessarily forming a cohesive and consistent whole. Which is fucking annoying in a different way.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

The writing in the DA games isn't bad, it is normally quite to very good (for a computer game). It's just very often in service to retarded plots and is very cliche, so it can only go so far.

This is my feeling as well. Everybody in DA1 has the same tone, and they are all very modern in sensibility (which makes Morrigan's hilarious faux-archaic accent kind of grating) --  but it's very well-written and acted, for sure.

The Witcher games on the other hand definitely have much rougher edges -- but successfully give the impression that you aren't actually 100% sure what is going to happen at every single moment, exactly how everyone will react, etc. etc.

Analogy-wise, it's kind of like the DA games have great workmanship on top of tedious architecture. Like the best-built, highest-end set of suburban housing developments you've ever seen.

(ETA: Though to be clear I haven't played the second one yet, or much of the second Witcher either; perhaps DA2 is full of crazy-unexpected moral gravitas and dramatic nuance, I dunno. I keep stalling out 2/3rds of the way through the first one.)

[tmp]

So, it only took me three days of playing to discover there's actually a functional brothel in the first town. I fail at witching

[Lantyssa]

I think it has to do with a contrast of specific characters against the world.  DA is better crafted (mostly...), but it feels as if the world orbits the player.  The Witcher though feels more immersive and like you are a part of it and there are events out of your control.  I can also forgive bad dialog if the sentiments it evokes connect with me.  (I won't remember the specifics of what was said more than five minutes and I'm long trained on subtitled anime where the tone of what's said is more important than the actual dialog.)

Also the Witcher has fewer black and white choices, which is a huge thing for me.  I hate there being a clear dichotomy and that is something very prevalent in Bioware games.  Something they tried to get away from somewhat with DA2, but their writers need practice with.  It doesn't need to be between two shit factions neither of which you can stand.  It needs to be two opposing ones which have traits you like and can relate to.

My ideal game would have lots of 'good' choices for selfish reasons and 'evil' choices for altruistic ones, along with neutral responses that represent a guarded position rather than an apathetic one.  I know Ingmar and I have disagreed on that in relation to Star Wars before, so it's likely a big part of our perceptions in these two games.

[AcidCat]

Finally got my copy from Amazon last night and got a few hours in. Didn't play the first game but I'm really digging this. Game looks great even on my aging machine .. combat is already really fun - I think the learning curve has been a bit exagerrated, its a little frustrating at first but the roll move is hugely effective, and you really have a good variety of abilities to deal with baddies even at the very beginning.

[MournelitheCalix]

It doesn't need to be between two shit factions neither of which you can stand.  It needs to be two opposing ones which have traits you like and can relate to.

This... you hit it right on the head for me.  This has been what has made the Witcher this time around so great an experience for me.  In the Witcher 2, I actually felt bad about not siding with one side.  So much so that I was severely tempted in two chapters to reload my game and redo the decision point.  I didn't, but that I was sorely tempted is in my opinion a sign of very good writing.

This is hands down my favorite RPG since Mass Effect 2.  I can not wait to get home to continue with the third chapter.  


One more meaningful aspect of the Witcher 2 that I appreciate:

[Morfiend]

I truly do not understand all the Witcher2 hate on Penny-arcade. They are making it seem like this game is SOOOO hard or that is it such a hugh stretch that once you know how to select a spell, you should actually use one? Or that if you swing your sword at the guy blocking with his shield and it staggers you, you probably need to wait for an opening before swinging?

Yeah the first courtyard battle was a bit rogue, and I think I died 3 times. But not the 47 times the PA guy said.



I dont get this. The game told me to use "E" to parry and "Space bar" to dodge. After getting killed the first time, I figured maybe I should use some of these things the game is telling me to use.

[Lantyssa]

One more meaningful aspect of the Witcher 2 that I appreciate:

[Zetor]

[Ingmar]

Curse of the Azure Bonds and Secret of the Silver Blades *both* stripped you of your gear. And I am totally not spoilering that. 

On the difficulty/tutorial front, the PA comic is spot on. The game never tells you how to throw items, for example, nor does it tell you what most of your spells actually do as part of the actual tutorial. It hearkens back to the old 'you have to read the manual to know what the hell anything does' days, and while you can go into your journal and read all sorts of 'oh so this is how things work' the game is quite terrible at actually walking you through anything to understand how it works for real.

[Xuri]

[Azuredream]

(which makes Morrigan's Claudia Black's hilarious faux-archaic accent kind of grating)

[Lakov_Sanite]

I think the penny arcade guys are way too spoiled on their video games. They play so many new games that are quite frankly, not a tenth as challenging as games used to be. Yeah the witcher has a steep learning curve but is it really the hardest game ever? Not by a long shot.

[tmp]

[rk47]

Yeah, PA plays like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCjzA-C647o

  I love watching this guy getting tortured. It's just so sweet watching him get killed over and over like a bad WoW raid video.
With full rage commentary.

[kildorn]

I truly do not understand all the Witcher2 hate on Penny-arcade. They are making it seem like this game is SOOOO hard or that is it such a hugh stretch that once you know how to select a spell, you should actually use one? Or that if you swing your sword at the guy blocking with his shield and it staggers you, you probably need to wait for an opening before swinging?

Yeah the first courtyard battle was a bit rogue, and I think I died 3 times. But not the 47 times the PA guy said.



I dont get this. The game told me to use "E" to parry and "Space bar" to dodge. After getting killed the first time, I figured maybe I should use some of these things the game is telling me to use.

The first ballista fight is a bitch unless you actually futz with abilities. Parry and Dodge will get you mauled by that 5 pull in front of it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I actually just danced around the ballista. The fight is hard as hell if you try to take on all five guys like superman, it's the first fight, you aren't gonna be superman.

[lamaros]

Yeah, PA plays like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCjzA-C647o

  I love watching this guy getting tortured. It's just so sweet watching him get killed over and over like a bad WoW raid video.
With full rage commentary.

Makes me want to get the game.

[rk47]

Same here. I mean, the delicious tears...and the fact it was his first PC Game. HA HA HA. Popping his cherry. Blocking of comment....over 4000 dislikes.
I'll get this next week. Awesome work by Pollacks.

[Morfiend]

I actually just danced around the ballista. The fight is hard as hell if you try to take on all five guys like superman, it's the first fight, you aren't gonna be superman.

Thats sort of my point. A lot of players these days are used to playing as Superman through the tutorial, hell through most of the game. Its refreshing to me.

I also danced around and rolled, and used my magic. Only took me 3 or 4 tries. Also, if its too hard, play on easy.

[tmp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCjzA-C647o

The impotent rage commentary is hillarious.

edit: although it's probably topped by how he only realizes half way through pt.12 what the shield sign actually does...

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Yeah the witcher has a steep learning curve but is it really the hardest game ever? Not by a long shot.

It's not that it's too challenging, it's that the challenge is presented terribly. And yes, it is weird when the very first fight in the game is difficult enough to kill you repeatedly -- that's certainly an expectations thing, but the game does not provide you with any opportunity to practice how to do anything, let alone instructions as to how to do it.

I play lots of hard computer games and enjoy them -- in most games I set stuff to 'hard' to avoid boredom -- but I haven't gone back to the Witcher since I died 25+ times on the same sequence in the tutorial, almost entirely to random fire attacks from the sky for which the game provides zero feedback or warning.

It sounds like if I just select some shield spell or something the whole game will get easy mode, so I guess at some point I will go back so I can see what the story is like. But the combat is pretty much ass so far.

[tmp]

I play lots of hard computer games and enjoy them -- in most games I set stuff to 'hard' to avoid boredom -- but I haven't gone back to the Witcher since I died 25+ times on the same sequence in the tutorial, almost entirely to random fire attacks from the sky for which the game provides zero feedback or warning.

It's not random fire attacks from the sky. It's burning rubble on the ground, stepping too close to it will set you on fire and there's pretty narrow path between these. The attack from the sky happens only once i think, and it's telegraphed by having the dragon responsible for it hover in the air for a few seconds before it takes place.

[Ingmar]

QTEs stuck into RPGs is not a trend I hope catches on, it reminds me of the annoying 'oh nose sith attack, to the turret' crap from KOTOR. Only... more annoying.

[tar]

Best line so far:

[tgr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCjzA-C647o

I love watching this guy getting tortured. It's just so sweet watching him get killed over and over like a bad WoW raid video.
With full rage commentary.

Heh. pt12: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9-j148iT8g

After the fight, he actually says "and I still haven't levelled up". That right there probably shows his background in gaming.