Ubi DRM: Their Side of the Story

[Xuri]

Make sure you are blaming the correct people though.  Valve rarely sets prices, the publishers do.  Valve has to get their permission before doing sales as well.  That is why that whole COD4 price jump in Australia happened (where COD4 went from $50AUD to $80 AUD overnight, because Activision didn't like it being marked at $50AUD).

So you're telling me that every single publisher is in on this whole "€1 = $1"-scam?

[Azazel]

Go check the European retailers and find out.

I suspect the answer will be yes. Or if not, very close to all.

[Tebonas]

Not only software publishers, but hardware vendors as well.

1 Euro pretty much equals 1 Dollar.

[Azazel]

It could be worse, my European friends. How about US$1=AU$2 at retail?

For your reference, the exchange rate is about US$1=AU$1.13

 

[Venkman]

The only thing wrong with online-required DRM is when they don't provide a compelling service. Online stored save games and unlimited installs so I can play from one of my three different computers whenever I want without worrying about syncing account data and it's included for free because I was an original purchaser? Sign me the heck up. Like Steam. But if you've got the money to build your own system and don't want to give Valve their cut, go for it. Like Blizzard. Or Ubi.

This is all just bringing PCs up to par with what we've long since gotten used to on consoles. And MMOs.

The entire model of an online repository + friends/chat + quick game making system makes it unlikely Steam will wind up with a significant competitor.

They'd need to offer the same service with enough tempting extras to make you willing to have a second game store open all the time. That or steam would have to really really hose things up in a fit of stupid.

Facebook.

And I'm not being facetious.

[UnSub]

So we're at the point where DRM is okay provided it offers some benefits to players? That is sort of where UbiSoft was going, but they just didn't offer enough benefits and everyone was suddenly concerned their ISP was a house of cards.

[tgr]

With the way things are going, it's either going to be "be okay with DRM as long as it offers some benefits", or "live without new games".

I certainly don't see this changing until the gaming industry's sued enough times to actually start realizing that maybe they're going down the wrong path. I foresee, however, that the chances of that are less than copyright/intellectual property laws etc being changed to suit the reality they (i.e. those that make/produce movies, music, games, etc) want, if it hasn't already.

[Koyasha]

With the way things are going, it's either going to be "be okay with DRM as long as it offers some benefits", or "live without new games".

You forgot option 3: pirate it.  Anything that does have any level of DRM I personally find unacceptable, but I'm still interested in playing?  Yeah, I'll be in the torrent line.  I don't care about the 'morality' of the situation, and it doesn't matter whether it's 'stealing' or not, as long as I'm not likely to be punished for it, the only way you're stopping me from pirating your game is to make it easier and more convenient for me to purchase it than for me to pirate it - which Steam does.

I'm pretty much with schild on this one as well - games on Steam are mostly DRM free with, I believe, a few exceptions, and convenient enough that I want to buy them instead of torrent them.

[Azazel]

So we're at the point where DRM is okay provided it offers some benefits to players?

If by "we" you mean yourself and Darniaq.

Most of the rest of us said our piece and just stopped posting 11 times a day on the topic. One indivudual posting their own opinion later on doesn't exactly indicate a quantum shift of opinion for the guys who stopped posting on that aspect.

[AutomaticZen]

Most of the rest of us said our piece and just stopped posting 11 times a day on the topic. One indivudual posting their own opinion later on doesn't exactly indicate a quantum shift of opinion for the guys who stopped posting on that aspect.

Indeed.  Fuck that noise.  Who cares if they have online storage?  I just want to be able to play the damn game uninterrupted, on my computer.  Simple.  Ubi's DRM will prevent that.  Thus, fuck that.

[Venkman]

So we're at the point where DRM is okay provided it offers some benefits to players?

If by "we" you mean yourself and Darniaq..

Yea, this. I am ok with it because it provides a benefit I want (or would want if they make a game I want). I'm not joining a pro-DRM march or anything. I just don't mind it when it doesn't get in the way and includes something(s) that will enhance my experience. Like Steam Cloud or MMOs.

Mostly I like that they're trying something other than imposing some stupid ass restriction that won't stop anyone with a p2p client. Your goal needs to be more than just anti-piracy because that alone is too easy to beat.

I don't speak for anyone else. Mostly because I don't care

[Azazel]

Wasn't so much a dig at you as one at Unsub, who appeared to read your individual post as a seachange of opinion from f13 at large.

[Azazel]

As a totally scientific survey, I just did a poll of my class and 10 out of the 11 kids I have own a ps3/360/wii. 4 of them have a ps3/360. None of them have their consoles connected to the net. Just thoght it was interesting considering the current discussions we are having about consoles and drm and dlc. Only 3 of them say they sometimes buy preowned games.

[eldaec]

So we're at the point where DRM is okay provided it offers some benefits to players?

DRM is ok so long as it does not either restrict my right of first sale, inconvenience me while doing jack shit about piracy, or piss me off in some other manner that I have not yet thought of but which I know publishers are dreaming up as we speak.

[Mosesandstick]

Um, Digital Rights Management is ok as long as it doesn't manage your rights?   

[Musashi]

Dude.  The Rights part of DRM is not referring to your rights.  So the joke is a flop, I'm afraid.

[Mosesandstick]

I don't get it, care to explain? Who's rights are being affected apart from yours (as in the customers')?

[Rendakor]

The Rights being managed are the rights of the creator, not the consumer.

[UnSub]

Wasn't so much a dig at you as one at Unsub, who appeared to read your individual post as a seachange of opinion from f13 at large.

Well, kinda.

Steam has gone from "OMG the debbil" to "OMG so useful" here at f13.net since it launched. DRM was initially a big concern but that has kind of petered off because of the other things offered by the Steam service.

If Ubisoft continue to extend the flexibility / product offer of what they are putting on the table while also meeting their own security requirements, it appears they have a chance to run around the majority of objections to the scheme.

I'm fully aware that there hasn't been any kind of progress made on this issue that we'll all be back in 3 months time to discuss it again ( ) while PC publishers will continue to move towards MMO-style subscription / registration models and / or head towards consoles with love in their eyes.

[Azazel]

Followed your sig link. I saw Broughen in there!

[UnSub]

That's exactly who I was thinking of when I read it too. 

[eldaec]

Steam has gone from "OMG the debbil" to "OMG so useful" here at f13.net since it launched. DRM was initially a big concern but that has kind of petered off because of the other things offered by the Steam service.

The main concern with steam at launch was that it was a buggy slow piece of shit.

[naum]

Steam has gone from "OMG the debbil" to "OMG so useful" here at f13.net since it launched. DRM was initially a big concern but that has kind of petered off because of the other things offered by the Steam service.

The main concern with steam at launch was that it was a buggy slow piece of shit.

Avid gamers don't care. Actually, most software users in general, care not, as long as the DRM stays out of their way.

But a big factor in games is still in price. If a game is ~$50, aggravation abounds but at < $20, or the cost of buying a pitcher of beer or your friends a round of drinks (in fact, people will spend a bundle, shoving dollars into the jukebox for one time song plays), as long as the DRM does not annoy and publisher makes it easy to click and go, nobody is going to bark much.

Like iTunes. $.99 (or $1.29 or whatever it is now for the non-DRM), click and play…

 

[eldaec]

Steam has gone from "OMG the debbil" to "OMG so useful" here at f13.net since it launched. DRM was initially a big concern but that has kind of petered off because of the other things offered by the Steam service.

The main concern with steam at launch was that it was a buggy slow piece of shit.

Avid gamers don't care. Actually, most software users in general, care not, as long as the DRM stays out of their way.

Shut up. Yes they did at launch. This website is equipped with a fully functioning WayBack machine if you want to go read what people thought of steam back in the day.

[Trippy]

I still occasionally rail against Steam's slowass* POS spyware and DRM infrastructure but unfortunately their awesome sales have greatly sapped my resistance levels.

* Before I got my new comp and started using Steam more (stupid sales) every FUCKING time schild wanted to talk to me on Steam and I had to literally wait 10 FUCKING MINUTES for it to update itself before it would let me chat.

[Samwise]

This website is equipped with a fully functioning WayBack machine if you want to go read what people thought of steam back in the day.

It's true; I like going back to point out how I was one of the few who recognized Steam's potential for awesome during its painful adolescence.   

* Before I got my new comp and started using Steam more (stupid sales) every FUCKING time schild wanted to talk to me on Steam and I had to literally wait 10 FUCKING MINUTES for it to update itself before it would let me chat.

Yes, how dare they release free updates for their software.   

Steam's "spyware" aspect actually points out another place where DRM can actually add value to the consumer rather than just being a kick in the dick: cheat prevention in multiplayer games.  VAC alone makes Steam worthwhile IMO.

[Trippy]

* Before I got my new comp and started using Steam more (stupid sales) every FUCKING time schild wanted to talk to me on Steam and I had to literally wait 10 FUCKING MINUTES for it to update itself before it would let me chat.

Yes, how dare they release free updates for their software.   

The updates would be fine IF THEY FUCKING DOWNLOADED THEM AFTER the app is launched.

How would you like it if, for example, every time you started Windows it would go through a Windows Update check and there was no way of canceling the process?

[Venkman]

As a totally scientific survey, I just did a poll of my class and 10 out of the 11 kids I have own a ps3/360/wii. 4 of them have a ps3/360. None of them have their consoles connected to the net. Just thoght it was interesting considering the current discussions we are having about consoles and drm and dlc. Only 3 of them say they sometimes buy preowned games

And yet some of them couldn't use their ps3s on March 1st (assuming they had non-slim models). Stupid ass/how'd-they-miss-that bug, but still, DRM hits ya even if you're not connected.

I don't think there's a seachange with regards to accepting DRM. But nobody is quitting the industry because of it either. There's principal and then there's just having some fun. And if the latter can be had with transparent DRM, then people are going to. This isn't something you build barricades over.

[Azazel]

Both of the ones who have PS3s have slims, but yes you're right.

I just thought it was interesting, based on the fact that these kids have the consoles, yet things like exclusive pre-order DLC and so forth like PS3-exclusive Batman AA levels and Saboteur Titties DLC codes mean exactly jack shit to them since none of them are online. I mean, we know a lot of people are on PSN/XBL/WhateverWiiNetIsCalled, but it was interesting that none of them are on. And they do all buy games. To them, Lost and the Damned is a "new Grand Theft Auto game" at retail since it comes on a disc, not a piece of DLC, since they would/could have never bought it.

[Samwise]

How would you like it if, for example, every time you started Windows it would go through a Windows Update check and there was no way of canceling the process?

You mean like when auto-update is turned on (which is the only reasonably secure way to run Windows)?

I agree it'd be nice if it just let you run with the old version until it could upgrade itself at a convenient time, but I suspect their thinking is that they'd rather not have to worry about backwards compatibility with old versions (say, if they update their chat protocol) when their software is designed to run quietly in the background and update stuff automatically, and since it's always going to be there grabbing updates it should do no harm to require that it always be up to date.  Turning Steam off after every chat session just put you in a weird lunatic fringe of their userbase.

[Falconeer]

The Euro/Dollar scam drives me crazy.

I paid Heavy Rain in an Italian Gamestop store few days ago €69, which is regular PS3 price. That is $94 US dollars!

Conversely, if I bought THE SAME GAME in a Gamestop store in the US, it would be $59 USD, which is... €43 Euros.

So, if I buy the same product on launch day, same retail chain store:

US: $59 = €43
EU: $94 = €69

Edit: it's pretty much the same thing with PC games.

By being European I pay on average $35 additional USD for any given new PS3 title. It's hard not to feel cheated. Or pirated. Capitalism pirates me all the time.

[KallDrexx]

By being European I pay on average $35 additional USD for any given new PS3 title. It's hard not to feel cheated. Or pirated. Capitalism pirates me all the time.

And the shitty thing is that Gamestop is still making nothing off that $35 USD extra because that's pretty much what the publisher charges the foreign gamestop.

[Ratman_tf]

I still occasionally rail against Steam's slowass* POS spyware and DRM infrastructure but unfortunately their awesome sales have greatly sapped my resistance levels.

* Before I got my new comp and started using Steam more (stupid sales) every FUCKING time schild wanted to talk to me on Steam and I had to literally wait 10 FUCKING MINUTES for it to update itself before it would let me chat.

I just like to have hard copies of all my games. I break down every once in a while, like for download only games from smaller companies, and the occasional title that I can't find in the store. (Torchlight) But for the most part, I want my disks.

[Azazel]

The Euro/Dollar scam drives me crazy.

I paid Heavy Rain in an Italian Gamestop store few days ago €69, which is regular PS3 price. That is $94 US dollars!

Conversely, if I bought THE SAME GAME in a Gamestop store in the US, it would be $59 USD, which is... €43 Euros.

So, if I buy the same product on launch day, same retail chain store:

US: $59 = €43
EU: $94 = €69

Edit: it's pretty much the same thing with PC games.

By being European I pay on average $35 additional USD for any given new PS3 title. It's hard not to feel cheated. Or pirated. Capitalism pirates me all the time.

This is why I buy most of my games from Hong Kong, or amazingly enough, the UK. As software in the UK seems to drop to 10-20 pounds relatively quickly and the exchange rate is quite decent. Quite a few UK sellers have free postage or very cheap postage (1UKP) as well, which I guess is supplemented by the VAT which they don't need to pay on foreign orders.

[Trippy]

How would you like it if, for example, every time you started Windows it would go through a Windows Update check and there was no way of canceling the process?

You mean like when auto-update is turned on (which is the only reasonably secure way to run Windows)?

Auto-update downloads in the background without blocking the rest of Windows from use.