Civilization V- Might actually be good now. Stay tuned.

[MrHat]

Lots of mods getting put out, anyone have any strong recommendations?

[Musashi]

Yep.  Pretty much.  Also, units can move through each other if they have enough movement to make it to an open space.

[rk47]

Or how about that Great Tech Leap Forward. 2 Great Scientists, 2 Free Tech Policy, 1 Free Wonder and boom, suddenly you passed Renaissance. Haha.

[Jade Falcon]

So far, I'm not particularly liking most of the systems - Civ 4 had most things more interesting and detailed.  Diplomacy was a lot better - the removal of map trading and technology trading is highly disappointing to me, and the lack of detailed information almost everywhere is annoying.  Hopefully with some patches and expansions it'll get better, but at the moment the only part I really do like is the new combat system and such.  Even there it's irritating when units get into 'traffic jams' because they can't move through each other.

It's also much easier than Civ 4 in my experience.  On Prince in Civ 4, I rarely ever out-teched the AI civs so badly that I had aircraft and mechanized infantry while they were still fielding knights and pikemen, which seems to happen more often in this game.  And it's not like I'm out-teching the eras at a ridiculous pace either - when I launched my invasion force of mechanized infantry in my last game it was around 1970-ish, and yet the AI's were still fielding primarily pikemen or musketmen.  The most advanced of them was up to riflemen.  I think the only times I ever managed to out-tech the enemies that much in Civ 4 except on the easiest difficulties was when I specifically set out to ruin their economies or got them into lots of pointless fighting between each other.

Despite the complaints, it's enjoyable, but it feels more like Civ-lite to me.

I always hated the old tech trading system as it seemed the AI would just send out every tech too each other behind the scenes which I'm thinking is why I seem to out tech a good majority of the AI with civ 5.Empires that get boxed in early don't have the gold for tech research agreements and get left behind.

[dusematic]

Um.  This game fucking sucks.  It's a complete mess.

[Soulflame]

This game is pretty decent, and will (hopefully) get better with patches and expansions.

[Tarami]

I'm playing casual cooperative multiplayer with my brother. That's all it feels good for right now.

[Paelos]

Um.  This game fucking sucks.  It's a complete mess.

I wouldn't say it's a complete mess. That would entail that it's not worth playing period. I think it's got all pieces set up on the board, but the hand moving those pieces is pretty brain damaged.

[Typhon]

I expected the AI to be dumb given the tactical nature of troop movement.

I didn't expect for gold to be the vastly-most-important resource.  I didn't expect for the unit balance to be so off.  I expected the technology part of the game to have made improvements/be more interesting, especially since the cultural part of the game was neutered (religion) - so I was very surprised to see that the tech tree uses the same mechanism and is more game-able, rather then less game-able.

I'm hoping for improvements.

[Koyasha]

So, just to put a point on how easy this one is, a little recap of my latest game - Gandhi, Continents, Small, King, Standard speed.  One City Challenge.  I don't think I ever completed an OCC in Civ 4, and I know I didn't do it on King - hell, I have a hard enough time just not losing at that point.

It was really only the first part of the game that was a concern - getting Stonehenge, the Great Library, and the Oracle right off the bat.  Lightbulb Education with the free tech from the Great Library, Acoustics with the free tech from Oxford University, and the great scientist I picked up at some point along the way went toward lightbulbing Astronomy.  Navigation gets researched the hard way, then Scientific Theory gets lighbulbed by the great scientist from the Porcelain Tower and Archaeology gets lightbulbed by a normally-earned GS.  Biology gets a lightbulb the next time a GS is available, while I backfill research for currency and banking.  I enter the Modern Era with Biology, and yet I still lack Bronze Working.

Throughout all this, my army consists of one warrior unit, and a scout unit that I either disband or gift to a city state at some point along the way - I think I gifted him when an enemy's cultural borders trapped him away from my empire and I didn't want to sign open borders with him to get the unit back.  I probably get lucky with a lack of barbarians - the shape of the continent sets me up to be relatively isolated on a peninsula of land.  Resources are kind of limited overall, but I've got two whales, three fish, horses, ivory, and wheat in range.  Other than horses, I had the bad luck to have absolutely no strategic resources within my sphere of influence throughout the entire game, not that it mattered because I never had to build a military unit.

To keep my finances in good shape, I sold everything I could to other countries when they could afford it.  Open Borders tends to sell for 50 gold pretty reliably.  Luxury resources which I didn't need for happiness thanks to Gandhi's special ability tended to sell for 300, or if they couldn't afford it (which was common) I worked out a deal where they were paying me GPT.  I think the constant trading kept them friendly with me - Nobunaga and Napoleon were my neighbors on the continent.  Research agreements I tended to avoid.  They weren't a good return on money due to my very focused tech path - since they're a random tech, they were far more likely to research one of the ancient or classical era techs that I didn't give a damn about.  Spending 250 gold for that wasn't a very good deal at the time.

Throughout the entire game I got into exactly one war, which I still find a little odd.  Napoleon, who wound up sharing a border with me, constantly made me nervous because I figured he might go to war with me because of our shared borders, but it turned out to be Nobunaga who declared on me, sending an invasion force of samurai, catapults, and pikemen just after I had finished rushing Cristo Redentor with a Great Engineer.  I clicked around diplomacy to see if anyone was willing to help - Napoleon wasn't.  He wasn't fighting me, but he had open borders with Nobunaga, which was how he was moving the majority of his army into my territory.  I had also met people on other continents by this point, Rama-whats-his-name of Siam, and Askia.  Askia was willing to go to war with Nobunaga for 200 gold and some ivory, so I accepted the deal, and he got his ships under way.  By this point I had built a few wonders specifically in case I got attacked - the Kremlin and Himeji Castle.  Amusingly I didn't even have walls yet, but that was a problem easily rectified, as Delhi was making enough production to construct walls in one turn, the Mughal Fort in two, and a Military Base in about six.  I focused on doing this first.  While I was building these defensive buildings, a GS popped, and since I had just recently gotten the Telegraph, I used him to lightbulb Electronics for Mechanized Infantry.  That actually turned out to be a mistake, because by the time I finished building the military base, Nobunaga was in full retreat.  My city which was up to a defensive strength of 98 was pummeling anything that came near it without even a garrison unit (I had long since disbanded the warrior) and Askia's fleet of ships arrived and started bombarding Nobunaga from the coast.  Pretty soon he asked for peace and the only war I got into was over.  I never did get around to building that Mechanized Infantry.

It's not particularly long after finishing up my war with Nobunaga that I gain access to the Utopia Project, put all my production on it, and it's set to be completed in 19 turns.  A couple turns later, a Great Engineer pops, but I sadly discover that he can't rush the Utopia Project, so I just pop a golden age.  On turn 403, in the year 1983, I win.  My enemies are still in the Industrial Era, I think.  Except for Rama-whatever, I think he's still in the Renaissance.

Amusing observations this has shown me for the Tech tree.  It's kind of borked.  Replaceable Parts gives Infantry, but doesn't require Rifling.  Neither does Mechanized Infantry.  Or constructing battleships, for that matter.  In point of fact, you can construct bombers, rocket artillery, and guided missiles without ever discovering dynamite or combustion.  I suppose they must be steam powered rockets, or maybe electrical rockets, because I sure can't make explosives or fuel since I haven't discovered combustion.  The entire lower track of research is only really needed up to Chemistry and you can make the majority of powerful military units, the only main one you miss is Riflemen.  In the modern era you can't make tanks (I never make them anyway, mech. infantry seems to be better) or jet fighters/bombers - again, no big loss.  The only thing you might really miss is lacking nuclear fission, and that only for the +25% production of the nuclear plant, because Atomic Bombs and Nuclear Missiles aren't particularly useful.  Oh, and you can't make giant death robots.  ....not that any game I've taken that far has lasted long enough to get to giant death robots anyway.

[Murgos]

Big Patch announced:  http://kotaku.com/5663455/big-fixes-coming-for-civilization-v

[Paelos]

* Military – Better handling of unit need (navy vs land, etc.) .
* Military - AI will tend to build ships to deal with blockaded cities more often

Meaning, "Hey, we figured out that the AI never built boats. The guy in charge of that was in the shitter. Our bad." 

[Brolan]

Big Patch announced:  http://kotaku.com/5663455/big-fixes-coming-for-civilization-v

I'm glad I suppressed the urge to run out and buy this one.  I'll still get it but later/cheaper.

[naum]

Big Patch announced:  http://kotaku.com/5663455/big-fixes-coming-for-civilization-v

I'm glad I suppressed the urge to run out and buy this one.  I'll still get it but later/cheaper.

Is why I wait on Civ purchase until first round of patches… …and I hate that this is acceptable practice now, to release a bug ridden, beta test mode game that real live purchasing will iron out…

[Ingmar]

Bug ridden is really, really overstating the case with Civ V. I haven't had a single crash, and the few bugs I've encountered have been of the nuisance variety.

[JWIV]

Big Patch announced:  http://kotaku.com/5663455/big-fixes-coming-for-civilization-v

I'm glad I suppressed the urge to run out and buy this one.  I'll still get it but later/cheaper.

Is why I wait on Civ purchase until first round of patches… …and I hate that this is acceptable practice now, to release a bug ridden, beta test mode game that real live purchasing will iron out…

I think that's going a bit far.  It wasn't broken.   Mostly, it's a B level game that could stand some improvements.

Most of the "bug fixes" in that list are actually balance and UI tweaks as opposed to OH FUCK WE FORGOT THE AI.  

[Muffled]

It baffles me a bit that anyone would think the bad press and lost or delayed sales a buggy ugly release generates is outweighed by not having to run a thorough beta, and getting the game out a month or two earlier.  I don't have any way to weigh the actual numbers involved though.

[Paelos]

OH FUCK WE FORGOT THE AI.  

Except they did. And we all know it.

[JWIV]

OH FUCK WE FORGOT THE AI.  

Except they did. And we all know it.

Naw.  There's a difference between weak AI (non optimal use of military)  and the shit du jour that is Elemental and its AI that never actually moved from their city to attack anyone.

[Trippy]

Big Patch announced:  http://kotaku.com/5663455/big-fixes-coming-for-civilization-v

I'm glad I suppressed the urge to run out and buy this one.  I'll still get it but later/cheaper.

Is why I wait on Civ purchase until first round of patches… …and I hate that this is acceptable practice now, to release a bug ridden, beta test mode game that real live purchasing will iron out…

Microprose was infamous for releasing buggy games. Firaxis is just continuing that tradition.

[Tarami]

To go back to the game itself -

That city borders and population aren't tied together is very odd in the current implementation, I think. Since cultural borders don't really mean anything in Civ 5 except a buffer zone to attacks, there's no real point in growing them faster than the population allows. Occasionally you get cities which have their borders expanding slower than they increase in population, but it can so easily be fixed by throwing a couple of hundred gold their way.

I guess I just don't get the point of separating them any more. Ideally I would like to see cities use ALL the tiles within their borders and just use the ratio between resources to determine the outputs, with special resources giving bonuses. Having to build a trade post and then assign a resident to it seems to be redundant declaration. Improvements are generally so reliant on what terrain type they're on anyway so it's rare that you'd ever want to hedge your investment and build sub-optimal improvements on tiles.

[Koyasha]

Bug ridden is really, really overstating the case with Civ V. I haven't had a single crash, and the few bugs I've encountered have been of the nuisance variety.

For me, I've had quite the opposite experience on the bug side of things.  Graphics bugs abounded until I stopped using DX10/11 mode and ran it in DX9 mode, and even then I can't use fullscreen or go to 2560x1600 resolution or it goes nuts.  Even at 1900x1200 in DX9 and windowed, sometimes the terrain turns into a red and white checkerboard.

Other bugs that I've run into involve things like not being able to click next turn if I accept cities in trade from someone, but decide to puppet them - it wants me to choose production, but I can't choose production, so the only thing I can do is annex the city so I can choose production - this can be gamestopping in certain cases if an enemy empire just capitulated by giving you 90% of its cities, and you're forced to annex them all and have massive unhappiness because of it.  Even the 2-5 turns it takes you to raze the cities could financially destroy you.

Also the bug where after a trade agreement expires, I never get the use of my resources back.  Had a deal with whales for silver going in the game I described above, the turns ran out on it, and...it never ended.  I never got my whales back.  In fact, when Nobunaga declared war on me, the deal continued to remain active even during wartime.

Bunch of others I've encountered I can't recall off-hand to give specifics on, but I would definitely call it bug-ridden.

As for cultural borders, there is one usefulness for them expanding even if you can't work the tiles.  Especially when they expand beyond the range of workable tiles (if nobody else squeezes you in, a city's borders can eventually expand to about 2 hexes outside the range that can actually be worked).  Even if you can't work those tiles, if there are resources on them, constructing an improvement on that resource still gives you the resource so you can sell it or use it.  The other obvious benefit to cultural borders expanding faster than population is being able to secure land for yourself faster, so the enemy can't take it.

[Bunk]

Based on those patch notes, having the AI put less priority on building trading posts should go a long ways to making the computer competitive. Science production is tied directly to population, and since all the computer does is build trading posts, his population never keeps up with you.

I've not played a game yet where I wasn't able to fly past the computer on science, just by building lots of farms.

[Murgos]

I've experience a lot of bugs in this game.  Random crash bugs, graphic glitches (the red & white checkerboard, just wonky blurry graphics, pop-in and etc...) and just now a game stopping "Set Production" bug on a city I don't own.  Seriously, if I click the prompt it does nothing so i can't get to the 'end turn' button.

[Cyrrex]

I occasionally find myself in a situation where I don't even want to set production on a city that I DO own.  Seems they need an option to bypass it entirely and go straight to Next Turn.

[Murgos]

I occasionally find myself in a situation where I don't even want to set production on a city that I DO own.  Seems they need an option to bypass it entirely and go straight to Next Turn.

Eventually, with the right tech you can turn production directly into gold.  Which gives you something to make when you don't want to make anything else.  However, before you get that tech it is very annoying to have to build something regardless of if there is nothing in the list you want to build.

[Soulflame]

I think shift+enter will end your turn.

[Murgos]

I think shift+enter will end your turn.

I'll give it a shot.

[Koyasha]

Key note for when there's nothing to produce - producing a unit and disbanding it in your territory is, from what I've gathered from some threads, considerably more profitable than producing gold via the 'wealth' option.

[Merusk]

Yes, It is.  Particularly if you can produce a unit in a turn or two.  I just checked with my 14-pop Rome and a work boat produced in 1 turn gives 10g when disbanded.  Changing city production to gold gave 3g. I expect that this will be patched out.

[MrHat]

Yes, It is.  Particularly if you can produce a unit in a turn or two.  I just checked with my 14-pop Rome and a work boat produced in 1 turn gives 10g when disbanded.  Changing city production to gold gave 3g. I expect that this will be patched out.

It will be.

One thing I've noted when I have nothing I want to build - just use that production on any building or unit and when you have something you want to build, change your production to that.

When you go back to the throwaway building or unit, the production done on it is saved.

[Tarami]

When you go back to the throwaway building or unit, the production done on it is saved.

Oh wow. Thanks for the tip, it would have helped if they showed this somehow.

[rk47]

Based on those patch notes, having the AI put less priority on building trading posts should go a long ways to making the computer competitive. Science production is tied directly to population, and since all the computer does is build trading posts, his population never keeps up with you.

I've not played a game yet where I wasn't able to fly past the computer on science, just by building lots of farms.

I don't really build farms anymore in mid game. Gold start to go ridiculously effective once you run across maritime city states who can support city specialists and give luxury resources as well. One or two of these city states can really turn a whole empire around if you expand with small cities surrounded by trading posts and bolstered with the proper social policies to make happiness a non issue.

[Ingmar]

Yeah I think the AI would be most helped by a little more emphasis on buying city-state friends, it doesn't usually do much with them (other than attack them).

[Big Gulp]

I just turn off city states now.  Seems to make the game more fair.