Civilization V- Might actually be good now. Stay tuned.

[kildorn]

Has anyone had a game where a resource didn't spawn?  Not a single coal spawned on my map.

My latest game all four oil tiles on my little island spawned within one tile of the other resident nation's capital. <3

Thankfully, I'd already evicted him from it, for the crime of settling a city on my trade network.

[Merusk]

Has anyone had a game where a resource didn't spawn?  Not a single coal spawned on my map.

My latest game all four oil tiles on my little island spawned within one tile of the other resident nation's capital. <3

Thankfully, I'd already evicted him from it, for the crime of settling a city on my trade network.

I just had Persia do that to me. Seems like the AI likes settling on roads. The will pay for their insolence as soon as my army is done growing again.

[Muffled]

You guys must not be threatening all your neighbors enough, or are building your cities too far apart or something.  My (most recently) samurai hordes do not allow any new cities within 10 squares hexes of our borders.  

[brellium]

Finished downloading, should be interresting, however I doubt any Civ5 game will beat my Alpha Centari game where I decided to just drown everyone by hammering all my enemies with planet busters.  Extra points for having Lady Deidra hit my capital with one.

[Merusk]

You guys must not be threatening all your neighbors enough, or are building your cities too far apart or something.  My (most recently) samurai hordes do not allow any new cities within 10 squares hexes of our borders.  

I wasn't threatening them enough.  The road was between the last of my real cities and the remains of the German/ Aztec and Iroquois Empires I'd just turned into my puppets.  I'd been focusing on my cities for a while and they decided to move in to the neighborhood.   This will soon be rectified and Rome will own the whole continent.  Hail Caesar!

[kildorn]

You guys must not be threatening all your neighbors enough, or are building your cities too far apart or something.  My (most recently) samurai hordes do not allow any new cities within 10 squares hexes of our borders.  

I had threatened him, and he settled between my cities (I had settled the edges of the island for all the port bonuses, and was letting culture contain the inside)

He actually walked through my turf once and settled on the shore with no luxury, no fish, and already culture blocked beyond his initial starting 6 hexes. It was odd, so I razed it all to the ground before meeting the other nations, and claimed I didn't know what happened to them.

[Malakili]

My game as Japan is going well.  Samurai are crazy good.  I've finished offing the other Civs on my continent.  Fucking Siam too, I liberated his capital from Alexander in hopes of getting him as an ally and saving me a lot of trouble regarding city states.  Instead the very next turn after I liberate his city, he gets all indignant that my units are still in his territory, so I just took the city back again, idiot.

[Sheepherder]

Wrong again!  Merusk proposed food transportation should not be available in Civ 5 until refrigeration because food was not shipped around until then.  The Romans, among others, did it well before then.  Being able to afford it after a few hundred years or how long they lasted after such and such is not the point.  Adding a cost for attaching your city to such a distribution network would be trivial, much of the game is the resource balancing act.  It is a perfect fit for a tech or structure.

You're going to have to try a little harder, because I can't make this any simpler:  This only worked for Rome because Roman senators were willing to feed the domestic product of all of Europe into their capitol city.  The senators did this because they didn't want to die in riots, not because it made any particular sense, because the law of unintended consequences kicked in rather harshly when Rome underwent an unprecedented population boom soon afterward.  There's no reason to simulate this cycle in the game, because the Quit button is faster.

[Ingmar]

Actually it was Egypt. Anyway, put me in the camp that says food transportation should be possible in some way or another.

[Muffled]

I think that you're all focusing a little too much on Rome, presenting it as a unique case, when Baghdad, Constantinople, London, Tang-an or other old Chinese capitol cities all had similar food importation issues long before the invention of refrigeration, let alone steam power.

I'm sure any real history buffs around could give a few more examples, but you get the point.

This is not to refute the point that this sort of importation was horribly inefficient and economically ruinous by modern standards, just to broaden the base of data we're working from.

Gogo huge derail.

Edit: and yeah, there was essentially no food importation from Europe to Rome, it was mainly East to West.

[Lightstalker]

Clearly the ability to overproduce foodstuffs and transport them to other places had no part in the commercial revolution of 950-1350 in Europe.  

Not only was food transportation historical fact a thousand and two thousand years before the Civ V refrigeration technology (which also allows the modern Submarine and offshore platforms), but allowing the transportation of food would make the game more enjoyable as the city map abstraction doesn't handle specialization all that well.

[Tebonas]

Food transportation would be possible, but terribly inefficient. It would cost massive gold and/or unhappiness in the areas you take the food from, costs getting lower with certain techs.

They need things for the expansions after all.

[Sheepherder]

The Europe comment was referring to assets to buy food (slaves), not food itself.  Most of central Europe would have lacked the population or infrastructure for more than subsistence farming.

Just to put this into proportion.

Clearly the ability to overproduce foodstuffs and transport them to other places had no part in the commercial revolution of 950-1350 in Europe.  

Not only was food transportation historical fact a thousand and two thousand years before the Civ V refrigeration technology (which also allows the modern Submarine and offshore platforms), but allowing the transportation of food would make the game more enjoyable as the city map abstraction doesn't handle specialization all that well.

London supported 50k in 1350, Paris was 215k.  Both of them would have been receiving significant amounts of their provisions from the outlying areas with that little a population, though since both are on watercourses said area would have been elongated along the respective river systems.  That being said, in both cases the city radius abstraction is not horribly inaccurate.

Really people, it's not hard to understand.  Food was a shitty trade item unless it was a luxury, or unless you could ship a ton of it to a starving populace.  Usually throughout history it was too bulky for the prices it would fetch, unless cheap water transportation could be arranged.  More often than not humans have just historically avoided living in places where they would starve in the first place.

EDIT: And I'm not going to be home for a few days, so take your time tearing my posts apart.

[Typhon]

My Hiawatha got screwed fighting Bismark yesterday - he brokered a peace deal ... which simply never ended (60+ turns).  Since my long term strategy involved taking all his lands, this was most vexing.

Anyone else have this bug?

[dusematic]

I've encountered that problem in multiplayer.  It's weird.

[Surlyboi]

I hate it when people that are still puttering around in caravels are talking shit about how backwards my society is when I've got Giant Death Robots sitting on their borders.

[Njal]

My Hiawatha got screwed fighting Bismark yesterday - he brokered a peace deal ... which simply never ended (60+ turns).  Since my long term strategy involved taking all his lands, this was most vexing.

Anyone else have this bug?

Yep, I got it as well, with the same desire to crush the Japanese in this case.

[Malakili]

I hate it when people that are still puttering around in caravels are talking shit about how backwards my society is when I've got Giant Death Robots sitting on their borders.

Napoleon was getting all uppity with me last night about me massing troops on his border when HE was the one that started massing troops first  .  (Our borders bumped up against each other).  In the end, I ended up declaring war the moment I unlocked Samurai and invaded France, that shut him up.

[Murgos]

You're going to have to try a little harder, because I can't make this any simpler:  This only worked for Rome because Roman senators were willing to feed the domestic product of all of Europe into their capitol city.  The senators did this because they didn't want to die in riots, not because it made any particular sense, because the law of unintended consequences kicked in rather harshly when Rome underwent an unprecedented population boom soon afterward.  There's no reason to simulate this cycle in the game, because the Quit button is faster.

So, what you are saying is that not only was it possible to ship food across long distances thousands of years ago but that it was actually done on a scale large enough to support a city of a million people?

I think that's what you said.

[dusematic]

Stop the historical logistics faggotry, and let's get back to talking about Civ.

[Paelos]

I am now convinced that if you want to steamroll a military win in this game, Japan is the obvious answer. It's not even fair. By the time the rest of the word wakes up in 1500, you own 40% of the map.

[rk47]

I am now convinced that if you want to steamroll a military win in this game, Japan is the obvious answer. It's not even fair. By the time the rest of the word wakes up in 1500, you own 40% of the map.

Disagree. I used to think Japan was great but then I tried Greece. My god. Top tier units in early game is broken. Fastest land unit, outruns tanks, and able to move after attack? Horse-fuckers them all. Companion Cavalry is overpowered. Just get 2-3 of those beasts and watch empires fall as you pillage tiles like crazy and crush capitals before they can expand.

If you have no horses, tech up to bronze working and enjoy the hoplite. No special resources required. Form 2-3 brigade by chopping forests, sell away Open Border rights for 50gp to each Civ and start hitting nearest unsuspecting Civilization. Once you got Great General going, you're nigh unstoppable. Honor Social Policy for extra firepower, Patronage for gold spending on City States.

[dusematic]

I am now convinced that if you want to steamroll a military win in this game, Japan is the obvious answer. It's not even fair. By the time the rest of the word wakes up in 1500, you own 40% of the map.

Yes.  If you go play online, what you'll find is everyone plays the same 5 civs or so (France, Japan, Greece, Rome, America).  In most games, you'll have two France's two Japan's and two Greece's.  Part of the problem was that some abilities are geared more for single-player (e.g. unique abilities that influence city-states).  Part of the problem was the decision to give civs variable unique units or buildings (i.e. some civs have two unique units, some have one and a building).  Part of the problem is that the unique abilities are harder to balance than the way it was setup in Civ 4, where every civ had its unique abilities plucked from one pool of abilities (e.g. expansive, aggressive, protective).  Part of the problem is they need to patch the fucking game.  :)

[rk47]

Well. the random unit gifts from militaristic states are decent as they correspond to your current tech. level. Best I got was a shiny new catapult as I wondered if I should build one myself for an invasion. Sweet stuff. But it's a 500 gold gamble overall.

[Tarami]

I'm endlessly disappointed there's no Viking civ. Yeah yeah, they're the sea raiders, but still. I want my Huskarls special unit.

[rk47]

Just wait for the DLC I guess. It's pretty obvious they're leaving some Civs out for $5 add-ons.

[Paelos]

I am now convinced that if you want to steamroll a military win in this game, Japan is the obvious answer. It's not even fair. By the time the rest of the word wakes up in 1500, you own 40% of the map.

Disagree. I used to think Japan was great but then I tried Greece. My god. Top tier units in early game is broken. Fastest land unit, outruns tanks, and able to move after attack? Horse-fuckers them all. Companion Cavalry is overpowered. Just get 2-3 of those beasts and watch empires fall as you pillage tiles like crazy and crush capitals before they can expand.

If you have no horses, tech up to bronze working and enjoy the hoplite. No special resources required. Form 2-3 brigade by chopping forests, sell away Open Border rights for 50gp to each Civ and start hitting nearest unsuspecting Civilization. Once you got Great General going, you're nigh unstoppable. Honor Social Policy for extra firepower, Patronage for gold spending on City States.

Have not tried Greece yet, but I will to gauge the difference.

[Typhon]

Do upgraded units keep the capabilities of the previous unit?  If not, I'm thinking that (again!) the Native American's got screwed.  The tech difference between swordsman and long swordsman seems to be about 15 turns.  Having your special unit be good for about 15 turns seems pretty crappy.

[bhodi]

Do upgraded units keep the capabilities of the previous unit?  If not, I'm thinking that (again!) the Native American's got screwed.  The tech difference between swordsman and long swordsman seems to be about 15 turns.  Having your special unit be good for about 15 turns seems pretty crappy.

Yes, and there is some hilarity with the jungle-walking double-attacking infantry.

[rk47]

Top Tier Civ in terms of military power IMO.

1. Greece - Best Early Age Units allows easy domination start. Slightly weak states bonus ability but not entirely useless.
2. China - Great General gives 40% bonus instead of 25%, that alone causes your units to be stronger than similar counterparts. If you ever get a tech tier advantage, there's no coming back from 40% strength bonus which allows you to ignore 33% very unhappy penalty to military strength. Also, Chu-Ko-Nu double attack is insane. It's Paper Maker building also gives gold on top of the Library functions! Probably one of the best unique building as well!
3. Japan - Damaged units still attacks at full strength means less resting time for ranged units like naval ships and catapults. Less down time and defending always deals hard damage to attackers. Samurai lasts long era too, but getting there is a challenge. Zero Fighter is largely irrelevant by the time you get there, however, that's why China edges Japan out for 2nd spot.

Upgraded units does keep their passive abilities IIRC. That's why they won't let Chu Ko Nu upgrade to anything else. It's a dead end unit.
Minuteman , USA unique keeps their ignore terrain penalty as well when upgraded. This is why a Scout turned to archer is very deadly. Climbing a hill for 1 movement point and shooting straight away is always a joy.

However, I do not see Roman Legion retaining its road building ability. Strange.

[Jobu]

I just got a 50 turn golden age. Holy crapola!

Played as Persia with Achaemenid Legacy (+50% length of Golden Ages), build Chichen Itza (+50% length of Golden Ages) then build Taj Mahal (instant Golden Age). Coupled with some Social Policies to reduce the amount it costs to enter a Golden Age naturally, I've spent about 85% of the game under one.

[Wasted]

I keep getting this annoying bug where resources I trade away don't return to me after the deal is finished.  Its starting to make me wary of trading stuff at all at the moment.

[Sjofn]

I hate it when people that are still puttering around in caravels are talking shit about how backwards my society is when I've got Giant Death Robots sitting on their borders.

Napoleon was getting all uppity with me last night about me massing troops on his border when HE was the one that started massing troops first  .  (Our borders bumped up against each other).  In the end, I ended up declaring war the moment I unlocked Samurai and invaded France, that shut him up.

Someone wanted me to team up with them to kill Elizabeth (I forget who) and then bitched I was massing troops on my borders. Hey asshole, you're between me and the lady's empire you want me to cripple, SUCK IT UP.

[dusematic]

Another thing that people have mentioned is how insane the starts can be.  If you don't start near a river and have very few luxury resources, you're fucked.  You won't be able to generate enough gold to even build more than a few buildings and units on account of the upkeep.  In Civ 4 you could always just cottage spam and be fine.  Trading posts are pretty botched.

In the previous Civs you had a technology slider.  So, worst case scenario, your tech would slow down (unless you just completely disregarded your tech percentage until it got to 0%) a little and then you'd start trying to generate some gold.  It was like a softcap buffer on expansion.  Without the tech slider, you're basically in for a rude awakening after a couple cities and a couple buildings in each one if you have bad land.  You will be unable to generate enough gold and therefore unable to do anything.  Gold is king in this game. 

[Paelos]

Gold is king in this game.

He who has the gold makes the rules.