WoWtro

[Soln]

Below from the forums.  Just rather stark.  But clear -- everyone is grinding IXP and radiance.  That's the game now.  Sad IMO, since the game is not "geared"  (see what I did there) for it fully because of miserable LFG tools and pop imbalance.  You need to run X instances for 120 tokens for.... oh forget it.

Tier 1.0 set=Watcher, Turtle, 16th Hall, Skumfil, GS, DD, Forges, FG
The Watcher is the only place you can get your set helm/shoulders.

Tier 1.5 set=Hall of Mirrors, Water Wheels, Hall of Crafting.

Tier 2.0 set=Dar Nargabud raid. Which requires a full Tier one set, give or take some rad IE 1.5 peices. Dar is the only place you can get the tier two set, which is +20 Rad across the board.

Tier 2.5 set=Sword halls, Dungeons, SG, Warg Pens. +25 Rad on each of the three peices in the set.

Tier 3.0 set=BG Raid. the only place to get the new tier 3 set is in BG, which is +30rad on each of the six peices in the set.

As you progress, you need to hit a certain number of Radiance to raid.
This number is able to be bent a bit, depending on class, skill and group make up. But you need to have some if you wish to raid. For the most part, we had to get tier 1 to get access to the tier two raid. But now, you can go right to Mirkwood, get a tier 1.5 AND a 2.5 set for 120 tokens and you will have 120 radiance. More then enough for the tier one and tier two raids, and enough to enter the new tier 3 raid.

Edit: my real point is that they are changing the game to be only about acquiring Tiered items now (armor, weapons, class items).

[Ard]

Depends on what you're looking at from the game honestly.  I spent most of my game time last week grinding out beer fight titles and working on my crafting skills.  I have zero radiance gear, and was 60 on two characters well before Mirkwood.  There's plenty of non-gearing type stuff to do in the game, although it's all a grind of some sort no matter how you look at it.  Even fishing is technically a grind.  It's just a matter of what sort of grind you personally want to pursue.

There's all sorts of lateral stuff you can do though.  I personally lean towards crafting and slowly working up rep grinds for horses.  I also intend to finish up the epic books at some point if I can.  I'm not so interested in the end game as it currently stands.

[Soln]

Sure, but if you like stories and the Epic Books, for instance, you are gated by needing 3-man and 6-man's for several chapters.  Particularly in Moria.  3-man's should not be a problem, but trying to get people for the Eregion library was painful.  Let alone trying to field a full fellowship for 2.5.5...

[Riggswolfe]

Sure, but if you like stories and the Epic Books, for instance, you are gated by needing 3-man and 6-man's for several chapters.  Particularly in Moria.  3-man's should not be a problem, but trying to get people for the Eregion library was painful.  Let alone trying to field a full fellowship for 2.5.5...

The problem is worse than you think. It appears that the devs are starting to balance the books for gear. I don't think they mean to but stuff that I was able to breeze through in my 4/6 Tier 1 rad gear character my wife died multiple times on. I think they're trying to push everyone into getting the rad gear since it is generally just superior to the regular gear. It's sad really, LOTRO didn't even have raids at launch and was supposed to be about the journey and now Turbine seems to be going down the same old tired path of raiding and gear gating.

[Yegolev]

Bothersome.  I'm thinking of writing an angry post asking for the South Farthing in 2011.

[Soln]

they had a survey on the official forums maybe 6 months ago. The questions were only maybe 2-3 like "what area would you like to see next?" and "what change do you think the game needs most?"  For the first 3-4 pages I read the dominant answers were "South Farthing (South Shire)" for a replacement to Bree and maybe Lone Lands, and better LFG tools.  Not making that up.

[Yegolev]

I know.  I remember that.  I have done the Shire with three characters already and I still think it's the best part of the game.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't understand, AFAIK there is no encounter int he epic line, or anything outside of Raids, you need radiance for. They recently changed radiance mechanic, so that it does absolutely nothing outside of a raid boss encounter. The entire raid system was basically added for those types of players who like this sort of system.  They even recently changed it so that you do not have to do a specific instance for a specific piece of gear, I imagine a welcome change for anyone interested in raids but hate severe repetition.

"This is what the game is about" is a bit dramatic I think, there are so many other optional levels of game play and side advancement... Truly I think the only reason they added this type of system is to cater to those that like to "Rush to endgame", and are under the impression that its the only place the "good" content is. I personally fine LOTRO more consistent in the "good content" category than other end weighted contemporary games. In fact, makes me kind of worried when people play it, only focused on endgame, I feel they are missing out on some real good stuff along the way, just to enter a tired grind.. To each his own I guess.

Changing the game to be all about it? I disagree, I think they are simply adding/refining yet another optional game play system.

[rattran]

Before Mirkwood, rad gear made a bunch of non-raid stuff easier, not so much anymore. It's still amusing seeing people in advice whinge about how their rad gear is broken now that it doesn't cancel death dread.

[Yegolev]

It's all talk until I see more Shirey areas.

[Ard]

Lothlorien past the Nimrodel once you have rep is Shire 2.0.  Go level.

[rattran]

There are no pies in Lothlorien.

[Ard]

No, there are messages to flet-runners instead, on a much tighter timer but with no one to interrupt you.

There's also running pitchers of water all around town too, in simiiar fashion now that I think about it.

[Yegolev]

Lothlorien past the Nimrodel once you have rep is Shire 2.0.  Go level.

Grrrr.

[Soln]

I don't understand, AFAIK there is no encounter int he epic line, or anything outside of Raids, you need radiance for. They recently changed radiance mechanic, so that it does absolutely nothing outside of a raid boss encounter. The entire raid system was basically added for those types of players who like this sort of system.  They even recently changed it so that you do not have to do a specific instance for a specific piece of gear, I imagine a welcome change for anyone interested in raids but hate severe repetition.

"This is what the game is about" is a bit dramatic I think, there are so many other optional levels of game play and side advancement... Truly I think the only reason they added this type of system is to cater to those that like to "Rush to endgame", and are under the impression that its the only place the "good" content is. I personally fine LOTRO more consistent in the "good content" category than other end weighted contemporary games. In fact, makes me kind of worried when people play it, only focused on endgame, I feel they are missing out on some real good stuff along the way, just to enter a tired grind.. To each his own I guess.

Changing the game to be all about it? I disagree, I think they are simply adding/refining yet another optional game play system.

you're correct about the Epic. My complaint is more philosophical, so I'll admit to personal bias.  Just seems to me the game is not going places when the Epic previously allowed players who had already run an instance a mark for gear they could spend.  Those marks have not been updated and won't be updated since they are not for 50+.  It might be stupid, but I'm extending this to other parts of the game that require groups.  One shouldn't expect a solo game in an MMO.  I certainly don't mind grouping.  But when you can't access an area (e.g. Fornost or CD) without a group, or complete a quest without a group just because 99% of the population is at the cap, then I think the game has problems.

I don't agree with players who have been demanding more solo content.  I don't think that helps the game.  But there has to be a way for players to continue just because the design is not as agile as WoW with grouping.

So is the whole Epic including Moria now solo'able?  I don't want it to be, but I'm sick of trying to get full fellowships.  I can't bother levelling an alt past 40 since I can't face the drag of finding groups in Moria.  Again, because the overwhelming bulk of the pop is grinding tokens for rad gear.

Edit: clarifying the froth

[Numtini]

I don't agree with players who have been demanding more solo content.  I don't think that helps the game.  But there has to be a way for players to continue just because the design is not as agile as WoW with grouping.

I understand there are people who at least think they never want to interact with another player ever ever, but I can't help but think that most of the crying for solo content is linked intimately with the complete and utter failure of Turbine to offer any LFF tools that work or any incentives to group otherwise. Right now, I feel like on the epic books I'm offered the option of a meaningless cutscene (Books 1 and 2 revised) or not progress at all. Given that people have been asking for better LFF tools and more xp reward for grouping since launch, I guess I'll be waiting until the remaining book cutscenes are ready. But having done the Great Barrow instance for Ch 1.1.1 with a group, it was something that still sends shivers up my spine. I think they're gutting the best part of the game.

[Yegolev]

I'll be fine with grouping up if it is easy to do, not many asshats in this game compared to the others I have played.  I'd like to see the fellows-warp-from-anywhere used in skirmishes applied to instances, removing that reflecting pool business as well.  If the are not going to make grouping easier, then they need to make soloing easier.  Two sides of a coin, I suppose.

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm not sure how what Soln originally was talking about, related to his response to me, so I have no idea what to add.

Other than that, it is my understanding that the epic line becoming solo, is an OPTION and that the group versions are still available. It also only apply to the epic line, something that is unique for LOTRO as far as it is part of the centerpiece of the game content wise, and is very tied to advancement (Gear/traits/story unlocks). So, I don't see what the problem is, as most group content is left untouched and available to those that want to roll that way. The marks system also expands to Moria at this point...so i dont understand what people are saying about that as well. (The marks system is a quest one can accept if you have already done a book group instance, you accept the quest, and then do the book with friends or a pick up, and you are rewarded for this with a mark of valor, or some such, that can be turned in for a reward or rare mats, gems or LI settings ETC....)

[Numtini]

Other than that, it is my understanding that the epic line becoming solo, is an OPTION and that the group versions are still available.

Let's not be disengenuous, an option of solo or group play means solo. Particularly when there's no viable way to LFF and the solo version is trivially easy. People will take the way of least resistance.

Obviously the epic lines are unplayable right now, but the solo/group option thing is wasted effort. It will be functionally no different than making them solo only. About the only people who will group when it's not the most efficient are couples playing together and afaik the new system won't balance for duos, only 1/3/6.

And having done Books 1 and 2 under the solo system, it will be anything but epic.

[rattran]

I've done the new weathertop as both solo and group, and it wasn't significantly different either time. About the only change for solo was mobs became 'swarm' level of difficulty rather than signature, which made if feel a bit more epic. And I didn't need to sit around waiting for everyone to show up/finish banking/find a pool/etc.

And the GB instance is so much nicer solo, so many classes don't have their needed functionality at ~18 that it's a pain in the balls in a pug. I like the new seeming idea that not every mob inside an instance has to be an elite and tedious to kill.

[Soln]

forgetting the Epic for a moment, if we had better LFF tools and more importantly, incentives to group (e.g. sidekicking, tokening, karma?) it would make all the wonderful pre-MoM available to people.  Imagine being able to regularly fields teams into Annuminas, Fornost, or even the Rift or Goblintown.  Those are awesome areas, which would keep me subscribed forever. 

The almost guarantee of finding a group through something like cross-server LFF for an area like GB would I bet take a lot of the froth of the radiance/end-game complaints we see (from people like me) because there would be open access to everything non-rad gated.

[Numtini]

That requires a lot of work, but I think it would be well worth it.

However, on the lines of a lot less work, I think we'd see a sea change if they just went with the pre-3.3 WoW system. A multiple option LFF panel with a global chat for those in the system. Actually just leaving the panel as it is and making LFF global and reliant on being in the system would probably increase the chances of grouping several hundred precent--it encourages participation in the system and makes LFF chat far more useful.

[Riggswolfe]

I don't understand, AFAIK there is no encounter int he epic line, or anything outside of Raids, you need radiance for. They recently changed radiance mechanic, so that it does absolutely nothing outside of a raid boss encounter. The entire raid system was basically added for those types of players who like this sort of system.  They even recently changed it so that you do not have to do a specific instance for a specific piece of gear, I imagine a welcome change for anyone interested in raids but hate severe repetition.

Well two things:

One, this was pre-Mirkwood so being in rad gave me a major advantage.

Two, even with the post-Mirkwood change the radiance armor is still better than any other armor you can get. If you put my champ in his 4/6 set and a champ who is just in quest gear side by side my stats and survivability will be better.

[Yegolev]

I like the new seeming idea that not every mob inside an instance has to be an elite and tedious to kill.

Agree.

[Stormwaltz]

Two, even with the post-Mirkwood change the radiance armor is still better than any other armor you can get. If you put my champ in his 4/6 set and a champ who is just in quest gear side by side my stats and survivability will be better.

My LM's crafted Lothlorien armor is more effective - for my non-raiding purposes - than rad armor.

I do agree that quest armor is below both. I think that's intentional.

[Mrbloodworth]

Two, even with the post-Mirkwood change the radiance armor is still better than any other armor you can get. If you put my champ in his 4/6 set and a champ who is just in quest gear side by side my stats and survivability will be better.

My LM's crafted Lothlorien armor is more effective - for my non-raiding purposes - than rad armor.

I do agree that quest armor is below both. I think that's intentional.

Quest/crafted armor is still quite adequate. Sets above them are more degrees of overkill. Except if you want to do the optional group (instances), and raid content, in which those extra degrees could be required.

[Riggswolfe]

Quest/crafted armor is still quite adequate. Sets above them are more degrees of overkill. Except if you want to do the optional group (instances), and raid content, in which those extra degrees could be required.

Before the last few books I'd agree but the newer solo books seemed to be balanced towards higher end stats than prior books.

Edit:

To reply to Stormwaltz: Perhaps this is a class thing. I've looked at crafted armor, reward armor, and quest armor and the stats for Champ armor are just inferior in every way to my rad set. I'd love to get some new armor but I'd be losing stats.

[Azazel]

Other than that, it is my understanding that the epic line becoming solo, is an OPTION and that the group versions are still available.

Let's not be disengenuous, an option of solo or group play means solo. Particularly when there's no viable way to LFF and the solo version is trivially easy. People will take the way of least resistance.

Obviously the epic lines are unplayable right now, but the solo/group option thing is wasted effort. It will be functionally no different than making them solo only. About the only people who will group when it's not the most efficient are couples playing together and afaik the new system won't balance for duos, only 1/3/6.

And having done Books 1 and 2 under the solo system, it will be anything but epic.

I'd really have preferred they balanced the new options for 1/2/4/6 rather than 1/3/6, as duoing seems to be a common playstyle, and 4-person groups also have been more common than 3 or 5 (2 duos pairing up). We had 4 the other night at low -mid 30s looking for another two for hours with the LFG tool on to make a full fellowship for either a skirmish or the main Lone-lands instance, but no chance.

[Modern Angel]

Not to be handwavey here but there was a definite shift in feel and tone once I capped in Moria and the design started moving forward toward a more WoW-esque direction. I can't quantify feel. All I know is that the casual see the sights game I had been playing suddenly went to hard gear gating and rep grinds. To top it off, the raids weren't even good in comparison to what WoW was doing.

Note here that I don't mind raiding a bit. I like raiding in WoW, all the more since they've lowered the barriers to entry and I can casually raid and do it well. LOTRO, though, was doing shit that everyone else learned was a bad idea three years ago with the gating and forced tier progression. They're BAD at it compared to EQ2 and WoW. Why they went that way is just beyond me. I've not bothered to pick up Mirkwood even though in beta some neat stuff was introduced. At the end of the day it was the same: do I raid in LOTRO or do I raid in WoW? I chose the game that does it with at least a modicum of elegance.

[Numtini]

Why they went that way is just beyond me.

Because they had a bunch of max level players with nothing else to do and raiding is easier than grinding out massive amounts of content for them to plow through?

[Modern Angel]

Sure it is but it's also incongruous with what the population of the game is like. It's fine to do raids. It's not fine to slowly morph the game into a raid/gear centered game when the bulk of the players seem far more casual than their WoW or even EQ2 counterparts. Compare the centrality of raiding in Angmar to Moria and post-Moria.

[Riggswolfe]

Why they went that way is just beyond me. I've not bothered to pick up Mirkwood even though in beta some neat stuff was introduced. At the end of the day it was the same: do I raid in LOTRO or do I raid in WoW? I chose the game that does it with at least a modicum of elegance.

I'm not fond of it either, nor is a sizable chunk of the subscriber base. My feeling is that the skirmish system is intended to be a non-raid alternative for end-game content. I'd imagine skirmishes could be easily churned out, since alot of them take place in already established areas. Honestly, I enjoy them more than raids.

[Soln]

raids or even group required quests are fine for me (and my wife for that matter).  It's the grind we object to (mentioned way above) and the inability to be guaranteed we can get a group whenever we want.  And since this is a pay-to-play MMO, it's reasonable to want that guarantee.  WoW guarantees that now.  And without the guarantee of always being able to get a group you are slowed in your grind, which in turn slows your ability to raid.  And no, being in a Kin does not guarantee getting help -- it's often the reverse (i.e. people at the cap are only working on the end game raids).

[Numtini]

In terms of getting a group, LOTRO is basically at EQ1 levels. Go to the zone and shout.

[Azazel]

In terms of getting a group, LOTRO is basically at EQ1 levels. Go to the zone and shout.

EQ1 put in some great LFG tools. I think it was several months or more before WoW was released, and last time I looked at either (4 years ago for EQ1, a year ago for WoW), EQ1's tools were still better.


No insta cross-server group type stuff though, which WoW apparently has now added.