Love (the MMO, but still may be fleeting)

[Malakili]

Case in point, in the first video, he asked how many programmers there were... because they are the only ones that will agree with him. Second he says that halo looks crappy...

Well, I'm not really a programmer (anymore), but from a gamer standpoint,  I've found his game a lot more interesting to play and more innovative than 90% of the stuff that takes years and 10s of millions, so good on him for that.

Also, I don't know if it so much that halo looks crappy, its just that it looks...hum drum.   Halo (and others) seem to subscribe to the school of "make it look more like real life than anything before."  This will get you like, 5 minutes worth of interest as people look around and say "oooh" and then it'll be lost among the dozens of other games doign the same thing.  I think what he said about that sort of God of War style that everyone is doing now struck a chord with me, because it just doesn't interest me graphically in the least.

Interestingly though, I thought the game might be slightly more playable (though not as pretty) with the blur thing off.  One of my complaints about the game is that I feel like a lot of times things blur together and I can't tell exactly what I'm looking at without getting close to it.

[Mrbloodworth]

I'd like to see what could be done with an actual dev team and a modest budget, using that guy's tools. The big idea being, don't spend your resources creating a high-def squad of roid raging space marines running through a giant worm's bowels, but build a world instead.  

Me too. But I would like to point out this. Its the same feature sets.

Malakili, game play design and art direction/design are not mutually exclusive. Unless you use this system! 

[jakonovski]

Me too. But I would like to point out this. Its the same feature sets.

Hey, the new Star Wars MMO engine. I wonder if Bioware is up to the task. Their games haven't changed at all in over a decade, so if it's just a WoW-KotOR hybrid, meh...

[Mrbloodworth]

Me too. But I would like to point out this. Its the same feature sets.

Hey, the new Star Wars MMO engine. I wonder if Bioware is up to the task. Their games haven't changed at all in over a decade, so if it's just a WoW-KotOR hybrid, meh...

Again, game design. That's not related to the capability of the tools. I hear you can make even the most standard outhouse with a hammer, or you can make this.

I have played with the (love) editor, its highly unintuitive (alien webdings FTW?). But I am sure it is exactly how he thought Maya should have been, instead of taking the time to learn it, why not just recreate it "The right way"? That is the exact feeling I get from its design philosophy, and its a common one from programmers.

[jakonovski]

Again, game design. That's not related to the capability of the tools. I hear you can make even the most standard outhouse with a hammer, or you can make this.

That's the thing, by letting a nutter like Eskil design a nice tool (apparent UI nonsense notwithstanding) you can then unleash proper designers to make full use of its capabilities instead of having those potemkin villages that you run through in a linear rollecoaster story game / MMO grind. I'm worried Bioware has gone the wrong way and spent all their money hiring voice actors and modeling one-off high-poly art that gets one glance in the game before you move on to the next spectacle.

[UnSub]

Let's look at things this way:

Game design is cheap. Even good game design is cheap.

It's implementation that is expensive. There are already a few pre-existing MMO development engines that studios can work with, which possibly cuts down on the time to build the underlying bones, but to date there is nothing that cuts down on the really costly part of filling the game with content. Stuff exists to help populate the environment (e.g. SpeedTree) but that's not really content. Regardless of what Eskil has done, he still can't generate enough interesting content to fill his MMO's experience by waving the procedurally-generated magic wand.

The other expensive part of the process is revising that game design to fit with reality, especially the reality created by players.

I'll probably give Love a shot because ultimately I think the interesting stuff for MMOs is going to come out on the fringes. Or from Blizzard, who can do whatever the hell they want and still cover costs.

[Malakili]

Let's look at things this way:

Game design is cheap. Even good game design is cheap.

It's implementation that is expensive. There are already a few pre-existing MMO development engines that studios can work with, which possibly cuts down on the time to build the underlying bones, but to date there is nothing that cuts down on the really costly part of filling the game with content. Stuff exists to help populate the environment (e.g. SpeedTree) but that's not really content. Regardless of what Eskil has done, he still can't generate enough interesting content to fill his MMO's experience by waving the procedurally-generated magic wand.

The other expensive part of the process is revising that game design to fit with reality, especially the reality created by players.

I'll probably give Love a shot because ultimately I think the interesting stuff for MMOs is going to come out on the fringes. Or from Blizzard, who can do whatever the hell they want and still cover costs.

Depends on how you define it really.  It depends on what you consider "content" and how much is "enough."  Right now there is a good deal to do, and because the world is changing all the time, and the AI is constantly doing stuff, its never ending.  I mean, it isn't as varied as osmething like WoW, and probably isn't going to be the only game you play, but whatever.

[Malakili]

Release date of March 25.

[Malakili]

Pricing announced.  10 Euros/mo.  No box cost.

[tazelbain]

So anyone?

[Quinton]

What the hell, I'll pay 10euro and take a look.  AtlantaServer1 has the best latency (133MS) for me...

I'm Quinton in game.  Correction, I'm Gomeison -- apparently you get auto-assigned a generated name.  

I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing.  It looks kinda neat

wiki: http://www.loveinvers.es/wiki/getting-started

better wiki: http://www.gaminglove.net/wiki/Getting_started

[Malakili]

What the hell, I'll pay 10euro and take a look.  AtlantaServer1 has the best latency (133MS) for me...

I'm Quinton in game.  Correction, I'm Gomeison -- apparently you get auto-assigned a generated name.  

I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing.  It looks kinda neat

wiki: http://www.loveinvers.es/wiki/getting-started

better wiki: http://www.gaminglove.net/wiki/Getting_started

If there is still a teamspeak server up, (should be able to find it on the gaming love forums if it is) I'd suggest getting on there, as people are pretty willing to help new players generally.  I haven't been playing recently, but I might give it another go.

[Ghambit]

This game intrigues me, but I kinda wish there was some sort of trial.  I guess given the fact there's limited server space via vouchers, that's not possible.
Does the game wipe every month?

I thought about DLing his "tools," but my mind exploded.  They arent exactly the easiest things to jump into.  The majority of devs. and hobbyists will still gravitate towards stuff like UE3, XNA, CS4, etc.

[Amarr HM]

This is really interesting stuff, he looks like he hasn't slept in over a year in his assembly seminar. But interesting approach.

[Riggswolfe]

I have to admit, the ideas sound interesting. However, the game is fugly, and something about the movement seems off. I could see myself getting nautious and I play FPS all the time. I think the camera is too loose or something.

[Malakili]

I have to admit, the ideas sound interesting. However, the game is fugly, and something about the movement seems off. I could see myself getting nautious and I play FPS all the time. I think the camera is too loose or something.

Ugly?  I actually like the look.  I guess thats the risk you run going for the very stylized impressionistic graphics though, probably a love it or hate thing.  Though I will admit it is sometimes difficult to see what is going on.  Still nice to look at though.  There are some odd movement mechanics, lie when you jump it seems like you can do flips and rolls, which feels a bit odd.

I'm not playing it though, Its the kind of game i'd want to have a consistent group to play with.

[Riggswolfe]

Ugly?  I actually like the look. 

In that video it looked smeared or something. Maybe it was just a low rez video.

[Mrbloodworth]

stylized impressionistic graphics Programmer art + Messed up shader trying to obscure it

FIFY.

[Malakili]

stylized impressionistic graphics Programmer art + Messed up shader trying to obscure it

FIFY.

Well yeah, not having a real artistic on the project is clearly hurting it, and I know Eskil thinks otherwise, but I still don't think it looks all that bad.  Again, my biggest problem with the graphics is not the look itself, but rather than sometimes its hard to tell what exactly you are looking at.

I know you do art for games though, so you are also probably pretty biased against him for some of his comments he made about how its his goal to remove artists from the game design process.

[Mrbloodworth]

Just a bit.

[schild]

As much as I like everything about Love as an idea and one-off, it doesn't make Eskil any less insane than he actually is.

Which is Mountain Dew Insane Stupid To XXXTREME.

[Ghambit]

Is this really much different from something like Roblox or Minecraft?
And yah, I've been getting much enjoyment from reading this guy's blog.  All that time fooling with OpenGL hasnt been kind to his neurons.

[Mrbloodworth]

Only problems I have, I have already explained in the thread i think. Also, Minecraft, hes sounded by artists, that would be Wurms original client developer. Roblox sacrificed graphic support for networked physics, but still employs artists to create the different shirts and stuff, as well as supports user created content.

Only real thing is dislike is that, apparently, all the training, all the skills and all the talents and years of practice by those pesky artists stopped him from making THE ULTIMATE MMO.

sometimes its hard to tell what exactly you are looking at.

That, maybe could have been fixed by someone with a visual arts background. Alien webdings won over that though. Screw working with others man.

[Malakili]

That, maybe could have been fixed by someone with a visual arts background. Alien webdings won over that though. Screw working with others man.

I actually don't mind that too much.  Thats just a matter of learning a set of symbols, and a pretty small set for that matter.  I have more trouble with for instance, looking out at the game, and I think , is that a tree, a coiumn of rock, a tower, etc.  Especially at a distance.   I think years of playing Team Fortress 2 where they've gone out of their way to make everything exceptionally obvious and plain to see has made me bad at this in general in games though.

Still, I sympathize with the I want to do my own project my way mentality, working with other people DOES suck a lot of the time.  How many times have we all said stuff like that, hes actually doing it.  Of course, he is reminding us WHY we put up with it in the long run, which is mostly because no matter how talented you are, you can't be great at everything.

[Ghambit]

The game is stylistically interesting, but visually difficult to look at.  There's way too much blur and no matter how high your FPS is, it always feels like you're looking at a filmstrip, especially with the overuse of particle effects.  Objects are also too mashed up as Malak says and it's difficult to distinguish much of anything.  I like the design though, but it's unfortunate it was done in this manner tbh.

Eskil is usually in Teamspeak so if you login you can pick his brain while you play.  Lately the servers have been up and down so it's been tough to get any momentum going and the AI just rapes.

Anyways, the game is basically a co-op Tower Defense in a semi-persistent large world.  Actually, reminds me more of "Dungeon Defense" wherein you can build up defenses but you also have an avatar you control, with powers, etc.  Throw in destructibles/buildables and voila.

[iamacyborg]

I'll preface this by saying that running a fansite for this game, I'm clearly biased. Also, I know this thread is old, but with an expansion currently being tested in the game, it's a good time for people to come back and see what's changed.

This game intrigues me, but I kinda wish there was some sort of trial.  I guess given the fact there's limited server space via vouchers, that's not possible.
Does the game wipe every month?

I thought about DLing his "tools," but my mind exploded.  They arent exactly the easiest things to jump into.  The majority of devs. and hobbyists will still gravitate towards stuff like UE3, XNA, CS4, etc.

There is a sort of trial, it's called a friend account. Basically, whenever you make an account, you also make a friend account. You can give the details to the account to someone and they'll be able to play at the same time as you do, without paying a penny.
I'm not too sure, I saw a live demo of his UV unwrapping tools just over a month ago, and it's definitely something that people will be looking into.

stylized impressionistic graphics Programmer art + Messed up shader trying to obscure it

FIFY.

The game art is actually pretty cool, you can see it in some of the earlier screenshots of the game, before it went into alpha. The shader's a point of contention for a lot of people, because it's a very clear stylistic choice on his part. Personally, I rather like it, but I can see why others might not.

As much as I like everything about Love as an idea and one-off, it doesn't make Eskil any less insane than he actually is.

Which is Mountain Dew Insane Stupid To XXXTREME.

Insane, but also frightfully intelligent. He definitely knows what he's about.



Anyway, the first expansion is currently being tested, which adds a lot of new stuff that seems to be improving the longevity of the game.

As far as the graphics thing, and I promise this is the only link I'll post to my site, a user created a mod for the game which removed the shader. Despite being low poly, the game looked very pretty. http://gaminglove.net/forums/f33/screenshots-without-blur-1116/
Unfortunately, that mod no longer works for the game, but the potential is there...

[Malakili]

Thread necromancy!

I've actually been thinking about trying this again because I did like it when I tried the beta, but I didn't like that everything was resetting so often, it was sort of off putting.  It has a lot of the features that I talk about wanting an MMO to have, such as persistent building/editing of the game world, no leveling process, and so forth.  And while it was admittedly beta last time I played, it was just a little too rough around the edges to get me hooked.

Then again, with WW2O eating up my MMO time, this might have tow ait a bit.

[iamacyborg]

The new expansion, Avail, adds some levelling, and some improved building options.

Basically, there are 6 new resources in the game, which can then be combined to create new effects, such as a localised fire, or acid which eats away the ground.
You can also use them to upgrade existing tokens, so for example, you can create a fire forcefield, which burns everything inside it (including players).

To be able to create those, you need to earn a title, by performing certain actions in the game (ie editing the ground, killing ai, routing power, etc). Once earnt, those titles give you some new abilities. Say, for example you've earnt the Routour title, you can now create in game requests for actions, which in the Routour's case is to provide buildings with power. You also get access to the advanced display screen, which allows you to progress in a particular material. The way in which you progress is then by placing requests and fulfilling other players requests, so it encourages people to play together.

It's a little annoying at the moment, because obviously everyone wants to be able to do everything now, but the system is working relatively well.

The next expansion after that is going to be great though.

[iamacyborg]

Free weekend starting today. Keep an eye out on Eskil's Twitter for the announcement.

[UnSub]

I was going to give Love a shot - the free part means I'll do it this weekend. 

[UnSub]

So, I downloaded it and entered the free area.

Lots of players running around yelling at each other in chat for doing things to the land that wrecked other things. A tutorial that told me things that didn't seem to work, or give any idea of what to do next. A world that was nothing but platforms of orange bridges, apparently because the AI had gone nuts and players claiming that server needed to be reset. Died in the water several times. Remained confused about what to do.

I didn't last long.

[jakonovski]

I d/led. I load the game up, look at some titillating visuals for 30 seconds, and then the game crashes. Repeatedly.

[Sir T]

Free Love is overated and always leads to problems.   

[Severian]

Necro...philia!

Free Love is now free-for-all.

[Malakili]

Hmm, I'll try this again for the low low price of free.   I liked it when I tried it last time, but not enough to keep paying 5 bucks a month.  So I'm intersted to see what the game is like now.