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stray
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Reply #105 on: January 11, 2010, 05:42:07 PM

Relatively speaking, these games being mentioned still have a shitload of money compared to what Braid probably had (under 200k I'm reading). We don't need to scale it up to Titanic. Just about every game you buy at the store, packaged neatly in a box, with a recognizable publisher's name on it, are all big budget.

edit: I don't know.. Just seems like Margalis is wanting something virtually unknown to be considered for GOTY. Which to me would mean some indy thing. I could be misreading, granted.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 05:43:49 PM by stray »
schild
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Reply #106 on: January 11, 2010, 05:43:36 PM

Braid was a pretentious piece of trash though, so I'm not quite understanding your point.
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Reply #107 on: January 11, 2010, 05:49:30 PM

Relatively speaking, these games being mentioned still have a shitload of money compared to what Braid probably had (under 200k I'm reading). We don't need to scale it up to Titanic. Just about every game you buy at the store, packaged neatly in a box, with a recognizable publisher's name on it, are all big budget.

edit: I don't know.. Just seems like Margalis is wanting something virtually unknown to be considered for GOTY. Which to me would mean some indy thing. I could be misreading, granted.

So then it just sounds like all you're saying is that a GOTY needs to be a retail product
eldaec
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Reply #108 on: January 11, 2010, 06:00:51 PM

If we're talking about Batman though, the reason I haven't bought it yet isn't because of mechanics.. it just seems claustrophobic. "Arkam Asylum". That shit should be a level or two. Not an entire game. Someone convince me otherwise.


If the setting were any bigger it would need levels, and would feel even more linear and claustrophobic.

That said, I do think having to visit most of the buildings twice or more after they get transformed by <plot device> is what drove the plot to descend further and further into camp sillyness by the end.

The game is good but not great and we'd just be talking about it as a neat thing to rent if it didn't have batman in it.


Braid was a pretentious piece of trash

Never a truer word spoken.


I think a game with a fairly big scale and high production values is a necessary qualifier for being considered GOTY material. More than likely, that means it'll be from some big publisher or something. Which in turn means it'll be popular somewhat. That isn't to say some clever indy idea isn't a good game, but for the most part, those are sort of "core" type of gameplay experiences. While better funded games, when done well, can do that and more.

I would like to hope that when we're pointing to the best of the year, we'd be able to find something that has both the production values *and* the innovation.


But I spent most of 2009 playing Steam weekend deals and EVE so can't really argue with the general point that almost everything is shit now, with the exceptions everyone noted earlier.




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stray
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Reply #109 on: January 11, 2010, 06:06:17 PM

Relatively speaking, these games being mentioned still have a shitload of money compared to what Braid probably had (under 200k I'm reading). We don't need to scale it up to Titanic. Just about every game you buy at the store, packaged neatly in a box, with a recognizable publisher's name on it, are all big budget.

edit: I don't know.. Just seems like Margalis is wanting something virtually unknown to be considered for GOTY. Which to me would mean some indy thing. I could be misreading, granted.

So then it just sounds like all you're saying is that a GOTY needs to be a retail product

More than likely.

Games with these budgets have more to offer than a core gaming experience. I'm not saying being retail means is necessarily good - let me make that clear - but when they are on, they are really on. The good retail game not only offers a great core gameplay experience just like the great indy game, but it has all the luxuries of dazzling visuals, sounds, full time writing teams, or whatever that a bit more cash can buy. And for the final point, these games tend to be fairly popular. Kind of hard to think of many that aren't.

edit: slimmed that
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 06:14:09 PM by stray »
Venkman
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Reply #110 on: January 11, 2010, 07:14:11 PM

Not sure what you mean about the source. I'm not caught up in some hate against the Modern Warfare series if that's what you're asking. I know next to nothing about it. I just don't like the maps I played. Some feel tight and overcrowded, some had openings and holes everywhere which just makes for kill streaks from cheap ass angles. Living and dying feels sort of... random and not up to me. Granted, I didn't play a bunch. But that's my impression. That I can customize a "character" is sort of cool, I guess, but not something I'd miss. I mean umm.. actually I don't give a fuck. FPS's are about maps, not characters.

Ah, I see where our difference is. Without going too much into, I basically skipped FPS games from the original UT on through CoD1 (no CS: Source, no clans, no ladders, etc). CoD2 really drew me in though at the office. I skipped 3, loved 4 and 5, and enjoy MW2 as much as 4. It's less about the maps than what I unlock. It gives me the MMO vibe, basically feels like WoW BGs in an FPS.

I enjoy the BF series as well, though only the PC ones, and more for the vehicles than the weapons.

Otherwise, I'm really not what anyone would call an FPS "gamer". I'm basically just an obsessive dabbler, and MW2 scratches my MMO itches well without the monthly fee and abject predictability of the PvE game.
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Reply #111 on: January 11, 2010, 08:04:55 PM

Dragon Age: Origins was the only game that has stood out to me in 2009.  I have to admit I have never played Demon Souls and I can't comment on whether or not it was deserving of the best of title.  With DA: O however I am knowledgeable and can state that I was really heartened to see Bioware "get back to its roots." After seeing the lackluster stories supplied to the customer in NWN and Jade Empire it was nice to see Bioware develop another RPG with depth. My one complaint with it is that I am finding myself more than mildly annoyed with the obtuse toolset.  After hours of pouring over it and scouring the internet for people who have found success with it, I have come to the conclusion that either Bioware didn't want people to be able to make quality mods with the toolset or they have intentionally decided to make the most unfriendly interface imaginable and hid its functionality behind an overly cumbersome, obfuscating interface.

I also want to reiterate what some people have expressed here.  I also don't understand the hate towards Batman: AA.  For a console game, I found AA quite entertaining.  I thought Mark Hamill turned in an excellent performance voicing the joker.  Honestly I thought half of the fun of the game was listening to the joker's banter.  They story was crap, but what really were you expecting?!?  Between periods of listening to the joker, inverted takedown, explosive gelly and swooping kept me entertained.

One game I wonder about though was King Arthur: The Roleplaying-Wargame.  This is a title that is clearly not in the same league as DA: O; however, for a title that to me came out of nowhere, I enjoyed it greatly.  In my opinion there are only a few flaws that keep this game from being a masterpiece, was it given any consideration???  I ask because I thought it was damn impressive for a title I hadn't heard one thing about.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:06:31 PM by MournelitheCalix »

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stray
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Reply #112 on: January 11, 2010, 08:43:25 PM

Ah, I see where our difference is. Without going too much into, I basically skipped FPS games from the original UT on through CoD1 (no CS: Source, no clans, no ladders, etc). CoD2 really drew me in though at the office. I skipped 3, loved 4 and 5, and enjoy MW2 as much as 4. It's less about the maps than what I unlock. It gives me the MMO vibe, basically feels like WoW BGs in an FPS.

I enjoy the BF series as well, though only the PC ones, and more for the vehicles than the weapons.

Otherwise, I'm really not what anyone would call an FPS "gamer". I'm basically just an obsessive dabbler, and MW2 scratches my MMO itches well without the monthly fee and abject predictability of the PvE game.

I'm not even an FPS gamer either. Not anymore really. Just don't like some of the designs there. I would apply the same reasoning about maps to WoW BG's too. And I don't find MW2 and WoW comparable, regardless of the "character building".. WoW BG's had some clear chokepoints, for one. They weren't nearly as intricate and full of holes to the point where people died randomly from backshots.

Just my 2c though. If you like it, that's cool. :)
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Reply #113 on: January 12, 2010, 02:21:59 AM

edit: I don't know.. Just seems like Margalis is wanting something virtually unknown to be considered for GOTY. Which to me would mean some indy thing. I could be misreading, granted.

I was just reacting to the list of Modern Warfare 2, Dragon Age, Assassin's Creed 2 and Uncharted 2 in schild's post. All those are games that appeared on most "most anticipated games of 2009" lists and were generally hyped to hell and back. They're all the kind of game that if you bought 3 games this year you probably bought at least one or two of them. It just seemed like a generic list of "blockbuster" games to me.

If I was going to list the games I most enjoyed in 2009 that list would include Might and Magic for DS and Punch Out for Wii. Those aren't indie games or even particularly off the beaten path, they're just titles I really enjoyed as opposed to "objectively great" titles.

Quote
I think a game with a fairly big scale and high production values is a necessary qualifier for being considered GOTY material. More than likely, that means it'll be from some big publisher or something.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

This is my number one pet peeve in gaming. Last year the Giant Bomb guys put Fallout 3 on their "top ten games of the year" list even though none of them put it in their personal top ten and most of them made fun of the game. Their reasoning was that it was "obviously a good game."

The point of a game is to be enjoyable, I don't think it makes any sense to claim that because a game is well-constructed in some ways or looks expensive that it is objectively good. No matter how well crafted a game appears to be or how expensive it looks if it isn't enjoyable then it isn't a good game.

And beyond that looking at production value as a measure of craft is just lazy. A cheap looking game that is fun as hell demonstrates just as much craft as a dull expensive game. In fact significantly more craft in that it doesn't have production values to fall back on and wow people with, it has to live and die based on core gameplay.

Game of the year should be what you enjoy the most - period. There's no point in an attempt at faux-objective measurement.

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Velorath
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Reply #114 on: January 12, 2010, 02:55:02 AM

The list of games in schild's post wasn't a list of his favorite games of the year, which should be obvious to anyone who spends any amount of time.  He was expressing disappointment in the short list of big holiday releases after a long drought of good games in the months prior.

And stray already backpedaled on that part of the post you quoted, admitting that virtually any retail product would satisfy his criteria of having high production values.

In other words, I'm getting the idea here that you aren't really reading the thread in it's entirety since you seem to be missing stuff that has already been clearly spelled out.

And I somewhat disagree with the notion that GOTY has to be the game that you personally enjoyed the most.  Certainly that's one thing to consider, but there's nothing wrong with appreciating a game as a technical achievement, or for innovation either.
stray
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Reply #115 on: January 12, 2010, 03:00:34 AM

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

If it makes you feel better, I didn't like Fallout 3. :P
Margalis
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Reply #116 on: January 12, 2010, 04:00:57 AM

Quote from: Velorath
He was expressing disappointment in the short list of big holiday releases after a long drought of good games in the months prior.

To belabor this silliness even more who cares what the "big" releases are unless there is some implied correlation between big and good?

If I enjoy a game I could not care less whether it's "big" or not and conversely there's nothing exciting about a big game I don't enjoy. Case in point: Modern Warfare 2, not my bag. It's a big release in terms of sales and revenue but in personal terms it's the smallest of small - I have absolutely zero desire to ever play a Call of Duty game again.

I just don't get why the number of big releases would matter to anyone unless they're a retailer.

It's one thing to say that the holidays lacked games you enjoyed - that's an expression of personal taste. But to say that big releases were lacking - who cares?

I'm not trying to be obstinate, I just don't get it.

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Reply #117 on: January 12, 2010, 08:42:31 AM

Quote
If I was going to list the games I most enjoyed in 2009 that list would include Might and Magic for DS and Punch Out for Wii. Those aren't indie games or even particularly off the beaten path, they're just titles I really enjoyed as opposed to "objectively great" titles.

Once again, that's NOT what the post was. Jesus, English, man.
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Reply #118 on: January 12, 2010, 01:52:25 PM

I would like to simply state that I do not - in any circumstance - factor popularity into deciding what a GOTY might be, except in that I think I may have missed out on something.  American Idol is pretty damn popular.  Being a dickbag on forums is also popular.  I do not recommend either.

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Reply #119 on: January 14, 2010, 07:00:13 PM

Demon's Souls, Dragon Age, Uncharted 2, Assassin's Creed 2 and Modern Warfare 2 represents an extremely generic list, it reads as an aggregation more than any sort of expression of personal taste.

Which is why I asked "Can taste in games get more generic?"

It's like someone saying "man the movies sucked this year outside of Transformers, Star Trek, Twilight and Avatar!" It reads to me as a list of "big" games, rather than a list of good games or games that any particular person would personally enjoy.
Out of curiosity, what games this year do you consider better than the ones listed (and also aren't "generic" I guess)?

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stray
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Reply #120 on: January 14, 2010, 08:15:11 PM

He mentioned Punch Out, but I was gonna say that it's still successful enough to sell a million copies. And umm.. well..  it's fucking Punch Out!  swamp poop I can't think of a title more perennially loved than Punch Out, other than.... other things Nintendo makes. It is "objectively great" and easy to understand why it's liked in the same way any of these others are.

[edit] Hmm a DS game and a Wii game. I see what you did.  Ohhhhh, I see.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 08:40:51 PM by stray »
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Reply #121 on: January 14, 2010, 10:08:06 PM

Punch Out was fun for about 2 hours.

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Reply #122 on: January 15, 2010, 10:19:08 AM

Arg, I'm an idiot and only thought the bottom of page 3 was the end of the thread when I made that post.

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Reply #123 on: January 19, 2010, 01:19:46 AM

In the way of being depressing, check out the nominees for best written videogame....
http://gamerant.com/writers-guild-announces-wga-video-game-nominees-trung-6420/

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Reply #124 on: January 19, 2010, 01:39:06 AM

In the way of being depressing, check out the nominees for best written videogame....
http://gamerant.com/writers-guild-announces-wga-video-game-nominees-trung-6420/



Not really depressing as I'm guessing the selections have a lot to do with the nomination process.  Specifically, that in order to be nominated either the writer, or the developer/publisher has to submit the script for nomination, as well as the fact that "At the time the script is submitted, the credited writer(s) of the game must be, or apply to become, a member of the WGA's New Media Caucus".

Edit:  Dragon Age lead writer David Gaider for instance had this to say:

Quote
I don't believe any writer at Bioware is a member of the WGA (with the possible exception of those who have worked in the television industry previously), not because we're anti-union but simply because the need has never come up. The purpose for a video game writer to be part of the WGA appears to be dubious at best, as far as I can tell, unless one simply wishes to be eligible for an award. We participate in other groups such as the IGDA, which are a little more focused on our industry.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 01:44:54 AM by Velorath »
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Reply #125 on: January 19, 2010, 08:46:07 AM

BIOWARE HATES GUILDS

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Reply #126 on: January 19, 2010, 08:47:24 AM

Looking through this thread, I went back and looked at what games I bought this year...

Dragon Age, Sims 3, Borderlands, CO, Fallen Earth, Torchlight. Yea, I guess Dragon Age gets my award by default. I was going to give it to Banjoe-Kazooie:N&B, but it turns out that was released Nov 08.

Nothing really stood out. To be fair, I really enjoyed Borderlands (especially multiplayer), but it's tough to give a game with that many UI and networking issues a GoY nod. Gave Demon Souls a quick try on a friend's machine - I can see the appeal and won't argue it's popularity, but it's just not a game I would enjoy beyond a few sittings.

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Reply #127 on: January 23, 2010, 01:35:06 AM

My Personal GotY's:

PC:  Dragon Age.  Thank Christ that this was dropped day and date on PC with all of the BG trappings mostly intact.  Bioware still loves PC gamers.

X360:  Forza Motorsport 3.  I get to paint cars again, but this time they really look good in-game, and I can sell the designs without having to micromanage the process - the community features are what separates this from everything else in the genre.  The physics and playability still feel better than any GT game ever has, while rewind means I don't have to do the same race ten times ever again to boot.

PS3:  Shatter.  A perfectly executed variation on a tried and tested gameplay mechanic that hearkens back to the earliest days of gaming but is definitely 21st century in gameplay and presentation.  Well worth the cash, and the soundtrack is worth twice that on its own.  Sidhe deserves your monies!

Wii:  Umm...  I bought Blast Works last year for $10 and love that game so that's what's going here.  Note:  Blast Works, Like all (actually) good Wii games, is best played with the Classic Controller.

DS:  Professor Layton and the Diabolical Box.  Next verse, same as the first, and that's just great.

PSP:  Pangya Fantasy Golf.  Hot Shots Golf but CRAZY J/KRPG style.  Either that or Monster Hunter Freedom Unite, but I like retarded fantasy-themed golf more than grinding retarded survival equipment.

Multi:  Assassin's Creed 2.  Holy shit, they really turned this into a great open-world game.  The pacing, the mission variety and the ability for you to decide how to go about all of it was just right, which fixes everything that was wrong about the first AC.  It's as deep as you want it to be, and just a great playthrough from start to finish.

Honorable Mention:  Red Faction: Guerilla.  You and your sledge/ostrich hammer against Mars.  Mars is fucked.  Great destruction physics as a hook to hang an entire game on marred solely by the omission of co-op play.  The best multiplat game that isn't DA:O or Assassin's Creed 2.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 02:17:20 AM by MisterNoisy »

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JWIV
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Reply #128 on: January 23, 2010, 12:52:04 PM

Just as a side note, I suppose if I had to nominate a GoTY for the Wii, I'd go with World of Goo (and yes, I know it was also on PC).

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Reply #129 on: January 25, 2010, 12:36:24 PM

I'd have gone with New Super Mario Bros. Wii, but I haven't really explored the depth and breadth of the 2010 Wii releases.

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