LoTR nerdfight redux

[Ironwood]

It was clear from the context of the book that the whole, Hey, I'm Gandalf and I'm sitting on this horse in front of the gate and, by the way, you're no fucking getting in pal, nae trainers, was a reinforcing of the point that, after his fall, no-one fucked with Gandalf.

He even made clear that there were about 3 people in Middle Earth that would even remotely bother him and, by the way you cowled wee shite, ur no wan o tham.

That scene is stupid.  It should have been taken out.  As already mentioned, if you define the 'levels' of power, Gandalf isn't about to get bothered by a sorceror who has a weakness to fire.

For Fucks Sake.

[stray]

Without knowing the books, and just going by the movies, I thought the other chick (Erowyn? (sp )) didn't get much screentime. I guess I'll complain about that. She seemed to be important, yet Arwen probably has a bigger role.

I only mention it because she killed that Witch King, right? You guys are talking about the same Witch King. I think.

[Reg]

Right. Eowyn was supposed to be a more important character than Arwen if you go by the book. She actually had a few pages where she was the main protagonist while Arwen never did (that I recall).

[Samwise]

It was clear from the context of the book that the whole, Hey, I'm Gandalf and I'm sitting on this horse in front of the gate and, by the way, you're no fucking getting in pal, nae trainers, was a reinforcing of the point that, after his fall, no-one fucked with Gandalf.

He even made clear that there were about 3 people in Middle Earth that would even remotely bother him and, by the way you cowled wee shite, ur no wan o tham.

That scene is stupid.  It should have been taken out.  As already mentioned, if you define the 'levels' of power, Gandalf isn't about to get bothered by a sorceror who has a weakness to fire.

For Fucks Sake.

 

[Quinton]

It was clear from the context of the book that the whole, Hey, I'm Gandalf and I'm sitting on this horse in front of the gate and, by the way, you're no fucking getting in pal, nae trainers, was a reinforcing of the point that, after his fall, no-one fucked with Gandalf.

He even made clear that there were about 3 people in Middle Earth that would even remotely bother him and, by the way you cowled wee shite, ur no wan o tham.

I believe that Gandalf could not *destroy* the witch king (due to him being destined to be offed by Eowyn), but that's about it.

[Cyrrex]

It was clear from the context of the book that the whole, Hey, I'm Gandalf and I'm sitting on this horse in front of the gate and, by the way, you're no fucking getting in pal, nae trainers, was a reinforcing of the point that, after his fall, no-one fucked with Gandalf.

He even made clear that there were about 3 people in Middle Earth that would even remotely bother him and, by the way you cowled wee shite, ur no wan o tham.

I believe that Gandalf could not *destroy* the witch king (due to him being destined to be offed by Eowyn), but that's about it.

That may be closer to the truth (though I tend to think Gandalf could possibly do a lot of things that he chose to leave to others...that's just his MO), but it doesn't invalidate the point.  No way the Witch King breaks his damn staff.

[Ratman_tf]

It was clear from the context of the book that the whole, Hey, I'm Gandalf and I'm sitting on this horse in front of the gate and, by the way, you're no fucking getting in pal, nae trainers, was a reinforcing of the point that, after his fall, no-one fucked with Gandalf.

He even made clear that there were about 3 people in Middle Earth that would even remotely bother him and, by the way you cowled wee shite, ur no wan o tham.

That scene is stupid.  It should have been taken out.  As already mentioned, if you define the 'levels' of power, Gandalf isn't about to get bothered by a sorceror who has a weakness to fire.

For Fucks Sake.

Is my nerd hat on straight?

Sauron put his power into the Witch King, just like he put his power into the Ring. (He probably did it through the Rings, like a LAN party!) Anyway, power in ME isn't all linear and predictable. That's why some blonde bimbo with a rusty sword could kill one of the mightiest bad guys in ME at the time.

At that moment at the gates, the Witch King was at the height of his power, fully backed by Sauron, and ready to throw down. Could he have beat Gandalf? We'll never know, but I don't think it would have been a guaranteed smackdown.

[Reg]

Plus, the Witch King could have used the fact that he weighs the same as a duck to dazzle and confuse Gandalph allowing him to sneak in and break his staff.

[Ironwood]

Um.  No.  Ratman, I don't wanna fight, but you're just NOT RIGHT.

If you take the movie in and of itself, your theory doesn't hold up.  If you take the books into account, your theory just melts in the sun like yesterdays hoarfrost.  Or summat.

Basically, you're not right.  Fucking GLORFINDEL could handle that soft shite.  Gandalf would have made an absolute jamrag out of him.

As has been mentioned, his demise was foretold as 'That's the way shit's gotta go down'.  It doesn't say anything about HIS power, but instead speaks to the nature of prophecy itself.

Fuck me, in the films Aragorn, without even Narsil-reforged, chucked a fucking torch at the guy and he legged it.  Gandalf could have just set the fucking guy alight to watch him BURN.

But, as has also been said, Gandalf knew that with great power comes a greater sense of 'leave fucking things alone you arsehole or you'll turn into a baddie'.  That's why he kept refusing the ring and why he mostly STOPPED himself from sorting out shit that other people could have handled.

'Cause otherwise you're Saruman.

Hell, in the books it's clear that Gandalf and Saruman were pretty much the same person except when they were asked to visit the East, Saruman said 'Fuck Yes' and Gandalf said 'Away chase yersel'.

Arg

Don't Make me Nerd Out.  It's Sick and WRONG.

[Slyfeind]

Oh man, I love the Britishisms that flow from you when you're arguing, Iron. It's like I don't understand half of it, but I know it's awesome somehow. 

[Quinton]

I believe that Gandalf could not *destroy* the witch king (due to him being destined to be offed by Eowyn), but that's about it.

That may be closer to the truth (though I tend to think Gandalf could possibly do a lot of things that he chose to leave to others...that's just his MO), but it doesn't invalidate the point.  No way the Witch King breaks his damn staff.

Oh I was in total agreement.  I also agree that in general Gandalf was not into interfering -- he preferred to counsel and didn't seek power (in sharp contrast, as has been pointed out, to Saruman).  Even when he was sent back as Gandalf the White, and the gloves came off, he kept the direct interference to a minimum.

[Ratman_tf]

Basically, you're not right.  Fucking GLORFINDEL could handle that soft shite.  Gandalf would have made an absolute jamrag out of him.

Glorfindel was an elf lord. Gandalf said there were few like him who could ride openly against the nine.

As has been mentioned, his demise was foretold as 'That's the way shit's gotta go down'.  It doesn't say anything about HIS power, but instead speaks to the nature of prophecy itself.

True.

Fuck me, in the films Aragorn, without even Narsil-reforged, chucked a fucking torch at the guy and he legged it.  Gandalf could have just set the fucking guy alight to watch him BURN.

Gandalf tried. In the book he mentions that he fought 4 or 5 of them on weathertop and drove them off, but Gandalf never had the power to destroy them. Bound to the Ring's fate and all that. Gandalf ran from the Nazgul. Partly to draw them away from Frodo, but partly because they were a danger to him.
The Nazgul were far from home, not yet at the prime of their power, and are strongest when their enemies fall to despair. That's why Aragorn could face them at weathertop and not get steamrolled.

But, as has also been said, Gandalf knew that with great power comes a greater sense of 'leave fucking things alone you arsehole or you'll turn into a baddie'.  That's why he kept refusing the ring and why he mostly STOPPED himself from sorting out shit that other people could have handled.

Again true, but it didn't stop him from putting his two cents in (The Balrog) when he felt it was necessary.

Don't Make me Nerd Out.  It's Sick and WRONG.

Beats talking about the retarted Star Trek movie.  

[Murgos]

Just to let the nerd flow:

In the books it's clear that the reason why Eowyn is able to do what she does is that Merry's dagger had been enchanted specifically to attack the Angmar and that's what undoes most of the Witch Kings protective magic allowing her to strike him down.

Also, Glorfindel is enough on his own to make all 9 of the ring wraiths together take a detour, Gandalf is another type of being all-together and defeated a Balrog (Sauron, Gandalf, Saurman and Balrogs are all the same order of being) in single combat.  The witch-king is only a human, even with some of Sauron's (which is no more than Gandalf's) power and one of the nine rings (Gandalf has one of the three), he wouldn't have stood a chance.

Edit:  Gandalf had to be the one to kill the Balrog under Moria because there was no one else to do it.  Glorfindel killed a Balrog in his first incarnation but the current incarnation was weaker, Gandalf guided the men and the elves to the demise of Sauron because that's what needed to happen for them as a people, he took out the Balrog when he encountered it because it wasn't supposed to be around any more and couldn't be left to show up later.

The elves and the white council all thought Durin's bane was some menace left over from the early years (Like Shelob) but they didn't think it was a Balrog.  Once Gandalf knew what it was he had to do something about it, there is a reason why it was hiding under a mountain for 3000 years.

[Johny Cee]

This same discussion happened recently on another board I lurk at, so here's an excerpt from Tolkien's letters:

"He [Gandalf] is still under the obligation of concealing his
power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel'. ..... He [Gandalf] alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed - and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands."


Gandalf is basically an agent of Free Will.  He can intervene in select circumstances, but he's there to make sure that people know they have a choice.  The only time the gloves really come off is with the Balrog (a threat from the First Age) and with Saruman (a traitor who has abandoned his mission).

[Cyrrex]

In the books it's clear that the reason why Eowyn is able to do what she does is that Merry's dagger had been enchanted specifically to attack the Angmar and that's what undoes most of the Witch Kings protective magic allowing her to strike him down.

I seem to also remember he stressed the point that no mortal MAN could possibly slay the Witch King, but nobody ever said anything about WOMAN. 

[Ratman_tf]

The witch-king is only a human, even with some of Sauron's (which is no more than Gandalf's) power and one of the nine rings (Gandalf has one of the three), he wouldn't have stood a chance.

The Witch King was no longer 'only' a human.

[lamaros]

lol

[Venkman]

Right. Eowyn was supposed to be a more important character than Arwen if you go by the book. She actually had a few pages where she was the main protagonist while Arwen never did (that I recall).

The prominence of Arwen in the movies was to combine a few events to form a thread through all three movies. By creating the forbidden love angle, they were able to get Frodo and the Fellowship easily to Rivendell, able to show some stress between Elrond and Aragorn, allow the Elves to leave Middle Earth after Elrond said they were while giving Elrond a reason to let his daughter while protecting her from Sauron by reforging and handing over the sword to Aragorn, and then neatly wrap it up in the third movie with the love interests hooking up.

Eowyn was a more important character in the books by far, but PJ probably didn't want to get too much into the politics of managing the kingdom while Saruman had the King under his spell. And after that, the movies did a fine job of showing her not wanting to be just a kept women, stowing away to the battle, doing well enough for herself, meeting up with the Hobbits, establishing her requited relationship with her dad, and therefore all having been well explained and present in her final encounter.

I was not sorry to see the lack of Bombadil (didn't serve a real purpose other than to flesh out the world, better as a Simarillion filler than a key character in LoTR), highlighting the differences between the various elven groups (I was fine with who showed up to Helm's Deep because it'd take too much time to explain otherwise), the lack of the Scourging of the Shire, and the lack of resolution with Saruman (trapped in the tower and eternal trees keeping him there, what's the problem?).

The mass marketable story ended with the trench run death of Gollum/ring. Everything after that was to explain how much the previously niave and disconnected (and Ranger-protected) Hobbits had evolved in the world. They didn't tell nearly enough of that story to have that be a valid ending. And honestly, I felt it was tacked on in the books too because from what I recall, there was absolutely nothing told about Hobbiton between the time the four leave and their encounter with the new guard post inspired by the Men who showed up.

Besides, the ending was long enough anyway. Like this post 

[WindupAtheist]

Darth Sidious would kick all their asses. Gandalf would be all like "I am a Maiar of Valinor, I'm probably powerful in some way-- OH FUCK A WOLF, QUICK LET ME UP THAT TREE!" and Sidious would lay the lightning on his ass. Know what would break just about any staff? Lightsaber. Yeah.



 

[Sheepherder]

The Witch King was no longer 'only' a human.

And Gandalf is fully the equal of his master.  You were told this, don't be dumb.

[gryeyes]

Sauron is an order of magnitude more powerful than any of the "wizards" who later come. Hes on an entirely different level.

[cironian]

Sauron is an order of magnitude more powerful than any of the "wizards" who later come. Hes on an entirely different level.

How so? Sauron started out exactly the same. Sure, I grant you that he got some extra experience and training from his time with his old master. But after losing the ring that he permanently poured most of his power into? At that point Gandalf could easily kick his ass in a direct confrontation even without the extra boost from Narya.

[IainC]

They may both be Maiar but that doesn't make them the same. The impression I get from the Silmarillion and the unfinished tales is that Sauron is one of the Old Things and they don't make them with that kind of power level anymore. It's similar to the difference between First Age Elves and later ones, Feanor would snap Haldir like a twig and yet they are both 'the same'. Gandalf and co kicked Sauron out of Mirkwood but couldn't actually defeat him properly, only curb his influence.

[cironian]

I always thought all the Maiar were created at the same time, only most remained outside of the world. Also, Sauron's strength is more that he is a really great manipulator, not a fighter. Any time he got into the action himself, he was defeated but managed to run away.

Seems like his true power is to get out of trouble alive. Although of course, during LotR he would still have been more than a match for most mortals.

[gryeyes]

Because Tolkien explicated stated this was the case. But we dont even have to rely on that to make that determination. And it really has nothing to do with training, Sauron was a high ranked member of the Maiar before he fell. All of the wizards are "lessers" in the hierarchy of their type. And they are even further handicapped in their power when they "arrive". This is done for a very specific reason, to make certain they don't have the means to battle Sauron directly or the ability to outright dominant mankind. This all happens after Sauron is "Depowered".

This is why they all appear as old men, who bleed/eat/die like normal mortals. There are countless examples in the books showing the Wizards are far less than Sauron. It takes the entire White Council to merely displace Sauron, that includes all of the wizards and the most powerful elves of the age.

[IainC]

Basically the Valar are smart enough to realise that sending ludicrously overpowered agents across to get things done has the potential to go very wrong. The Istari are powerful by mortal standards (although probably not so much by the standards of the older Noldor) specifically so they don't get funny ideas about enslaving the locals and setting up their personal empires. When Gandalf goes back as Gandalf the White he's invested with a lot more power to reflect the reality on the ground - the Istari are either MIA or actively working for the other side and shit is starting to get real. He's the last throw of the dice for this round of Valar vs Servants of Morgoth.

[Riggswolfe]

Eowyn was a more important character in the books by far,

If memory serves it is Eowyn's killing of the Witch King that ends the battle of Pelinor Fields and not the ghosts who weren't even at that battle. So yes, she is quite a bit more important in the books because she, with the help of a hobbit, had just saved all of Gondor.

[Ironwood]

Strangely, since this is no longer about Star Trek, I'm not really interested anymore.   


But seriously, some of you are still wrong on barely subhuman functional levels.

[Ratman_tf]

Sauron and Morgoth both invested their power in kicking ass and enslaving people. Gandalf's power was in motivating people and giving them hope. To take the magic out of it for a moment (Which Tolkien seems to have been doing after the books were published, and taking the fun out of them by explaining every nerd question... wait that sounds familiar...) they developed different toolsets for dealing with ME. Blatantly pointed out in the Silmarillion- in order to affect ME, a being like the Valar/Maiar has to operate by it's rules.

It's not a simple power level question.

[Samwise]

Darth Sidious would kick all their asses.

Only until someone thought of picking him up and throwing him down a deep hole.

[Teleku]

With Star Trek having been broken off from discussion, I find this new Star Wars tie in to have potential.

[Triforcer]

To take the magic out of it for a moment (Which Tolkien seems to have been doing after the books were published, and taking the fun out of them by explaining every nerd question... wait that sounds familiar...)

This is why I like George Lucas.  Modern-day movie guys who do what you described, like Kevin Smith, weep with pain and pen a 10,000 word monologue EVERY SINGLE TIME a virgin calls them a name on the Internet.  Lucas doesn't even pretend to care about all the people throwing shit at him, or pretend to know what other authors have done with his work. 

[Ironwood]

There is, however, something to be said for standing on the shoulders of giants, rather than kicking them in the nuts to cripple them to your level.

[Sir T]

To take the magic out of it for a moment (Which Tolkien seems to have been doing after the books were published, and taking the fun out of them by explaining every nerd question... wait that sounds familiar...)

This is why I like George Lucas.  Modern-day movie guys who do what you described, like Kevin Smith, weep with pain and pen a 10,000 word monologue EVERY SINGLE TIME a virgin calls them a name on the Internet.  Lucas doesn't even pretend to care about all the people throwing shit at him, or pretend to know what other authors have done with his work. 

Lucas is the way he is becasue he has an entire company of people terrified to say shit to him or tell him he's gone off the rails. Everyone that told him he was wrong he got rid of and destroyed in the last 20 years, and hes surrounded himself with yes men.

Some inspiration.

[gryeyes]

Sauron and Morgoth both invested their power in kicking ass and enslaving people. Gandalf's power was in motivating people and giving them hope. To take the magic out of it for a moment (Which Tolkien seems to have been doing after the books were published, and taking the fun out of them by explaining every nerd question... wait that sounds familiar...) they developed different toolsets for dealing with ME. Blatantly pointed out in the Silmarillion- in order to affect ME, a being like the Valar/Maiar has to operate by it's rules.

When Sauron entered ME he was a crafter, thats what his specialty is. Throughout the ages he was different things at different times, Maiar are fairly flexible in what they can do. Gandalf uses motivation because he is restricted from using any other means, thats his job as an Istari not the limitations of him being a Maiar. Evidenced by the fact he defeats a Balrog (Maiar of destruction and ass kicking) in single combat. We don't even know what Gandalfs specialty is (beyond being related to fire) because he was a non-factor in the previous ages. All we know is what his marching orders are after he becomes an Istari which includes having his power significantly nerfed. But even if he was at full strength he is far weaker than Sauron. They are in entirely different leagues.