LoTR nerdfight redux

[Sheepherder]

But even if he was at full strength he is far weaker than Sauron. They are in entirely different leagues.

Sauron	<	Saruman (in decline) + Gandalf the Grey + Radagast
Sauron	>=	Durin's Bane (note: it's implied that the Balrog does not serve Sauron and is, in fact, a rival)
Balrog	<=	Gandalf the Grey

Gandalf the Grey is between Sauron and the Balrog of Moria in power, but lesser than Saruman the Fruitcake.  The Balrogs were also lieutenants of Morgoth, of whom Sauron was merely the first amongst equals.  Sauron lost a significant amount of his power making the ring, which is why other bad dudes figure they can challenge him or don't submit to his will (Saruman would require the ring).  Gandalf gained a significant amount of power when he came back, he also has a ring of power.  He also explicitly stated that he's the most dangerous thing Gimli will ever meet save Sauron.  It can be inferred that the distance between the full strength of the White and the weakened form of Sauron is pretty fucking thin.

[Venkman]

Sauron and Morgoth both invested their power in kicking ass and enslaving people.

And they were all out of people /campbell   

[Tannhauser]

From the old SPI game "War of the Ring" (1977 bitches!) here are the stats for a few characters:

Balrog-Combat 4, Endurance 6
Gandalf the White-Combat 2, Endurance 6 BUT Sorcery A (like the best)
Witch King-Combat 3, Endurance 6, Sorcery B
Gandalf the Grey-Combat 3, Endurance 5, Sorcery B
Saruman-Combat 2, Endurance 5, Sorcery B

Based on the HARD data presented, we can clearly see that the Balrog, though mighty in combat, is no match for Gandalf the Grey's sorcery.  Gandalf wins.  Correct.

Saruman defeats G the Grey although Gandalf has a combat edge (Glamdring?).  BUT Saruman took him by surprise AND had home field advantage.  Saruman wins.  Correct!

Based on this tried and tested formula, we can see that a full out combat between Gandalf the White and the Witch King would result in a narrow win for the G from Valinor.  Correct.

These results are official and cannot be further disputed. 

[Trippy]

I seem to recall weapons were item cards. Though that might have been a different LoTR board game.

[WindupAtheist]

Lucas is the way he is becasue he has an entire company of people terrified to say shit to him or tell him he's gone off the rails. Everyone that told him he was wrong he got rid of and destroyed in the last 20 years, and hes surrounded himself with yes men.

Some inspiration.

Here's my thing: He's NEVER had a Star Wars movie that didn't generate hoots of "Kiddy bullshit with wooden acting!" and then make a billion dollars anyway, not 30 years ago and not 5 years ago. How is he supposed to know he's doing anything wrong? Phantom Menace got better reviews upon release than Jedi, and Sith got the best reviews of them all. If the critics don't know what they're talking about and all the movies make money, what exactly should he think?

Even if we accept the premise that all the new ones are terrible, if critics refuse to hammer them worse and audiences fail to reject them... uh... why should he think they're terrible?

(edit: Mixed up what got which review)

[Ratman_tf]

Transformers 2 did make a gozillion dollars.  Audiences are fickle.
Today's lesson? Have really fucking good advertising people. (Avatar, Star Trek, etc...)

[gryeyes]

Sauron	<	Saruman (in decline) + Gandalf the Grey + Radagast
Sauron	>=	Durin's Bane (note: it's implied that the Balrog does not serve Sauron and is, in fact, a rival)
Balrog	<=	Gandalf the Grey

Gandalf the Grey is between Sauron and the Balrog of Moria in power, but lesser than Saruman the Fruitcake.  The Balrogs were also lieutenants of Morgoth, of whom Sauron was merely the first amongst equals.  Sauron lost a significant amount of his power making the ring, which is why other bad dudes figure they can challenge him or don't submit to his will (Saruman would require the ring).  Gandalf gained a significant amount of power when he came back, he also has a ring of power.  He also explicitly stated that he's the most dangerous thing Gimli will ever meet save Sauron.  It can be inferred that the distance between the full strength of the White and the weakened form of Sauron is pretty fucking thin.

Sauron >= White Council: the most powerful beings of the age including 3 ring bearers (one being Gandalf) and 3 Wizards cannot defeat him, Sauron withdraws.
Balrog  >= Gandalf: They kill each other, even with a ring of power Gandalf is slain. Its worth noting this Balrog is not exceptional and is one of hundreds.
Sauron   = Gothmog(Lord of Balrogs): The only being who is Saurons "peer" out of all of the followers Morgoth. Gothmog is a metric fuckton more powerful than his kin. Sauron was not "first amoung equals" with Balrogs, he was first amoung equals with the Lord of ALL Balrogs

Gandalf while powerful and a Maiar is still a mortal creature as an Istari, he can be killed in any way that would slay a man/elf. Sauron cannot be killed by any means revealed throughout the books, even in his final defeat he is not "killed". The only remote possibility is to usurp his own power and knowledge or destroy it. Direct conflict with him (And yes Sauron does have a physical body throughout LoTR) is not even deemed an option. The entire White Council could not defeat him while he was at one of the weakest points of his existence.  While Gandalf is slain by a Balrog of no standing even with the aid of a ring of power. The entire function of the Istari is to provide guidance while lacking the power to challenge Sauron directly or dominant mankind should they become corrupt. This is why relatively weak Maiar are chosen for the Istari and even then are greatly reduced of there inherent strength. And while Durins Bane is not under Saurons command (as far as we know) this does not imply they are rivals in power. Merely the Balrogs served Gothmog/Morgoth and not Sauron. And given the Lord of all Balrogs was his sole peer should give a good indication of how powerful he is.

So unless you believe that Gandalf after his reincarnation is more powerful than 3 wizards+most powerful elves of the age+3 rings of power its not even close. This also ignores the fact that Sauron is much more powerful than when the White Council confronted him so Gandalf would have significantly more powerful than the combined might of the White Council for then to be even be close in might. And there is no indication that this is the case.

[WindupAtheist]

Tolkien isn't one of my nerd specialities, so let me ask: Is there any room for strategy, luck, or the old Ali/Frazier/Foreman split (A>B, B>C, but C>A somehow) in all this, or is everything secondary to POWER LEVEL like... well... DBZ?

[IainC]

There very much is room for luck and Dramatically Appropriate humblings of the mighty. Isildur (mortal human) goes a few rounds with Sauron in hand to hand combat without being turned into an heavily armoured frappuccino then manages to cut a finger wearing the One Ring from Sauron's hand.

[Ironwood]

Tolkien isn't one of my nerd specialities, so let me ask: Is there any room for strategy, luck, or the old Ali/Frazier/Foreman split (A>B, B>C, but C>A somehow) in all this, or is everything secondary to POWER LEVEL like... well... DBZ?

Tons of room.  Indeed, that's what it's really all about.

Try to keep firmly fixed in your head that even though this nerdfight is about the 'All Powerful Witch-King', he was humbled by a woman with basic Cavalry training.

Oh, and a midget.

[Sheepherder]

Gryeyes, when the Lord of the Rings was published the number of Balrogs in existence was set at seven, which Tolkien revised almost every time he made new notes apparently.  It was and is intended to be very fucking serious, later and earlier changes notwithstanding.  Sauron himself is just a goldsmith with political aspirations: fucking Aragorn manages to beat him in a contest of will when Gandalf gives him the Orthanc stone, his might is almost entirely based on the forces he commands and the ring, which he... uhh... lost.

[IainC]

Aragorn is basically incorruptible and possessed of a superhuman sense of duty - he has many opportunities to take the ring for himself but it apparently never even occurs to him to do so. He doesn't so much beat Sauron in a contest of wills, it's more accurate to say that he doesn't lose. Sauron is projecting his power remotely through the Palantir, while distracted with the search for the ring and doesn't realise the significance of Aragorn at that point.

Describing Sauron as 'only a goldsmith' is really understating him. Sure that was how he manifested his power in Numenor where he pioneered the art of making rings of power but he also has a lot of power himself that he used for his work. Saying he's just a goldsmith is like saying Gandalf is just someone who puts on firework displays.

[Tannhauser]

I wish I could find an old post on the LOTRO boards.  It stated that there was no magic in Middle Earth.  Magical things happened because of three things; Will, Craft and something I can't remember.

Basically if your Will is strong enough you can bend armies to you will (orcs).  If you Craft is great enough you can make a ring more powerful than others, etc.

This is why the Witch King could beat Gandalf; Sauron's full Will was focused on Minas Tirith and his lieutenant.  When the WK confronted Eowyn his will dropped, she was no threat.  But Sauron didn't count on the will of Merry to defend Eowyn, Eowyn's will to protect her uncle and of course the prophecy of Glorfindel.

I loved that post, wish I could find it again, it made so much sense to me.

[Ironwood]

Right.

[Sheepherder]

Describing Sauron as 'only a goldsmith' is really understating him. Sure that was how he manifested his power in Numenor where he pioneered the art of making rings of power but he also has a lot of power himself that he used for his work. Saying he's just a goldsmith is like saying Gandalf is just someone who puts on firework displays.

Not really, the only other time he flexes his power when not dominating minds or crafting stuff is to change the weather.  Supposedly he also has powers of illusion and shape changing.  Tolkien purposefully styled him and Morgoth from the Judeo-Christian Satan archetype, it shouldn't come as a surprise that he's not the avatar of destruction.

Also, as I recall it specifically says that Sauron was driven out of Mirkwood.

[Murgos]

As far as I can tell every time it's recorded that Sauron enters the lists as a combatant he gets his ass kicked.  By a mortal.  It's noted that Sauron's abilities lay more toward organization, invention, persistence and coercion and not so much combat or even generalship (his armies are routinely routed by inferior forces and succumb without battle to Numenor).

Gandalf the Grey is not killed by the Balrog, he is killed by the 10 days of exertion it takes to bring the Balrog to battle and kill him.  Gandalf the White is double plus good.  We don't know specifically what Olorin was capable of as a Maiar but he worked directly for Manwe and 'was considered the wisest of the Maiar'.  As an Istari his power is limited to the body of a fragile old man and yet he fights a 10 day running battle with a Balrog and wins, so he's no slouch in the combat arena even if his body betrays him.

I think we've long since shown that Gandalf, White or Grey, was more than a match for the Witch-King, had he wanted to match himself against him.  It's questionable who would have been the victor in the fullness of their power, Sauron or Olorin with all their tricks and time at their disposal but it is pretty clear that Gandalf the White in a direct confrontation with the weakened, ring-less Sauron would probably only result in a no-decision because that's the way Gandalf the White would have played it.

[Ironwood]

'Dangerous' Cried Gandalf.  'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'

(Two Towers, The White Rider, Page 125.)

Gandalf to Gimli.  For those who don't get quite what he's saying, it boils down to 'Back The Fuck Off, Short-Arse.'

Gandalf doesn't give a fuck.  Gandalf owns you.

[gryeyes]

Tolkien isn't one of my nerd specialities, so let me ask: Is there any room for strategy, luck, or the old Ali/Frazier/Foreman split (A>B, B>C, but C>A somehow) in all this, or is everything secondary to POWER LEVEL like... well... DBZ?

Sure there is, but in a comparison of a mortal man (which Gandalf for all purposes is) versus something that most certainly is not is a very lopsided fight. A third grader can be a tactical genius from a long line of ninjas but I can safely say a full grown man will beat his/her ass. The discrepancy in ability is just too great to rationally conclude a different result. Its similar to asking who do you think would win in a fight, Ali in his prime, or a 12 year old kid who boxes at the YMCA. You tend to use how they fared against other opponents to get a general idea of where they stand.

Gandalf is outclassed in every way by a substantial margin. Sauron gets his ass kicked various times, but its usually by multiple extremely powerful beings and it is always a "fight". He also defeats several beings in combat that are more powerful than anything in the third age. The Istari by their very nature are far less powerful, they are intentionally designed to be less powerful than Sauron. 3 Istari and 3 rings and the most powerful beings in ME at that time communally are unable to defeat him when he is at his weakest, what chance do you think a single Istari has.

Sauron versus Istari (One at at time or communally) is a Man amongst boys. There is not a single shred of evidence that conflicts with this but there is a  mountain of things supporting it. And I even narrowed the scope to just "Stupid shit Sheeperherder is claiming".

Sauron enters the lists as a combatant he gets his ass kicked.  By a mortal. It's noted that Sauron's abilities lay more toward organization, invention, persistence and coercion and not so much

When he loses the ring he is fighting multiple legendary opponents (we dont know how many exactly but its a bunch) wielding some of the most powerful weapons of that age. And there are only two survivors. Sauron defeats Finrod in single combat one of the most powerful elves of the First Age. Gandalf by comparison gets chased up a tree by some worgs, smacked around by a fellow Istari and killed by a Balrog. He is also a student of Nienna who is not a being of ass kickery. There is no question who would win Tolkien has said Sauron is a being immeasurably more powerful than all the Istari. Everything else we know supports this.

[Murgos]

Sauron defeats Finrod in single combat one of the most powerful elves of the First Age.

No, he doesn't.  He defeats Finrod in singing.  In this case singing probably means magical ability and also Finrod was cursed by Feanor at the time.  Sauron is beaten at other times by mortals such as Huan who is a dog.  There is no direct fight between the wise and Sauron at Mirkwood either.  Sauron flees, before any direct confrontation happens, to Mordor where he has secretly rebuilt his fortress and gathered an army, which the white councils wasn't then able to act against.

Yes, Sauron with the ring or even prior to the ring (Sauron is said to be greater with the ring than before it) is a greater power than the Istari and probably most of the first age heroes individually.  But without the ring and solely fixated on the domination of middle-earth?  Gandalf the White plays him like a fiddle, which actually is the whole point of all the books of the Lord of the Rings.

With the ring or before the ring, in single combat, Sauron probably wins toe to toe with Gandalf the White.  Without the ring Sauron doesn't let himself come to a confrontation and Gandalf doesn't press it because of his mandate but the answer is seriously in doubt.  Playing by the rules they set themselves?  It was definitively Gandalf.

[gryeyes]

Singing sons of power is most certainly referring to magic.  Unless fighting someone with magic is not considered combat you are wrong.  Huan is a dog as much as Ungoliant is a spider, you know the being who captures Morgoth one of the most powerful creatures in existence. Gandalf on the other hand is nearly killed by a pack of worgs. And is outright slain by a Balrog. The rules are, Istari are mortal creatures lacking the knowledge and power of their previous incarnation as Maiar. Sauron while greatly diminished is STILL a divine being, he cannot be killed, he retains all knowledge and abilities. Even the destruction of the ring does not kill him. Gandalf on the other hand can be defeated and slain by ANYTHING that would kill a man (even tho he is a badass). He is fearful of the Ring Wraiths because they can in fact slay him, while he is unable to do the same.

Are the Ring Wraiths more powerful than Gandalf? Of course not, but they can kill him. Is Sauron more powerful than Gandalf? Yep. Can Sauron kill Gandalf? Yep. Can Gandalf kill Sauron? nope. Is there any indication what so ever that Gandalf possesses the power to best Sauron in single combat? Nope As to Gandalf playing Sauron like a fiddle I would have to disagree. Gandalf loses the ring early on, is beaten and imprisoned by Sauraman due in large part to Saurons manipulation and corruption. And is forced into a confrontation with a Balrog that results in his death. Unless Gandalfs plan included him being dead and the ring unprotected id say he failed.

Gandalfs "plan" hinges upon an exceptionally unlikely event occurring. Saurons plan has only ONE factor that can prevent him from ruling the world. Gandalf won the lottery, nothing more nothing less. Saurons might is well documented whatever his incarnation, While Gandalfs greatest claim to fame is throwing exploding pine cones at a pack of Worgs that are fully capable of killing him. And slashing a few orcs with a sword. Sauron is recognized as an order of magnitude greater than the Istari in the ranks of Maiar. There is absolutely ZERO evidence supporting that they are equals in power.

[Murgos]

Well, I can't even make myself read that wall-o-text. Since i read the silmarillion 20 years ago and have been skimming wikipedia for my replies I'll go ahead and say I'm sure you're probably right. 

[Ironwood]

Gryeyes in 'being Gryeyes' shocker.

[gryeyes]

Well, I can't even make myself read that wall-o-text. Since i read the silmarillion 20 years ago and have been skimming wikipedia for my replies I'll go ahead and say I'm sure you're probably right. 

A wise choice.

[Ratman_tf]

My god, it's full of stars!

[Sheepherder]

Gryeyes, Gandalf also reincarnates every time we see him die, so I'm not exactly sure why you're drawing that distinction.

[gryeyes]

Gandalf is reincarnated through the direct intervention of God (forget its name), this is a feat beyond any of the Valar. He dies the same as any other man would, it had nothing to do with his own ability.

[Sir T]

When Sauron entered ME he was a crafter, thats what his specialty is. Throughout the ages he was different things at different times, Maiar are fairly flexible in what they can do. Gandalf uses motivation because he is restricted from using any other means, thats his job as an Istari not the limitations of him being a Maiar. Evidenced by the fact he defeats a Balrog (Maiar of destruction and ass kicking) in single combat. We don't even know what Gandalfs specialty is (beyond being related to fire) because he was a non-factor in the previous ages. All we know is what his marching orders are after he becomes an Istari which includes having his power significantly nerfed. But even if he was at full strength he is far weaker than Sauron. They are in entirely different leagues.

Actually we know a bit about Gandalf in Valinor. First he was a Miar called Olorin, of the people of Manwe, Chief of the Valar and ruler of the Wind and Air. He was said to be the wisest of the Miar. The meaning of Olorin in Quenya is associated with Dreams. Olorin was specifically mentioned in the Silmerilion but in passing. He was the last of the Istari or wizards to arrive and when he did Cirdan the shipwright gave him the elven great ring of Fire, Narya. That's why he uses fire a lot in the books.

Also Sauron "withdrew" from Dol Gulder the first time because he didn't want to face Gandalf alone. Sauron was pretty weak at that stage though.

[Sheepherder]

Gandalf is reincarnated through the direct intervention of God (forget its name), this is a feat beyond any of the Valar. He dies the same as any other man would, it had nothing to do with his own ability.

Yeah, it does.  He's reincarnatable, as are all of his kind, he just needs to ask nicely.  Which means Sauron's ability to go sulk in Mirkwood for a century or two while he puts his shit back together doesn't really make him all that formidable to the wizards.

[gryeyes]

k

[Mosesandstick]

I think you guys have ruined LOTR for me. 

[Ironwood]

Don't listen to them mate;  most of them appear not to have a frigging clue...

[WindupAtheist]

So have any of these characters being bandied about ever actually slugged it out with someone of their own level "on camera" in any of Tolkien's work? Or is it all vague as hell? Because I've taken part in more than my share of "which fictional characters can kick the others ass" nerd fights, and it's usually pretty boring if you don't actually know exactly what the combatants are supposed to DO to each other.

I want more "Spider-sense will negate the advantage of Predator's cloaking device!" nitty-gritty and less parsing of Tolkien's napkin notes, dammit!

[Sir T]

When Galdalf took on the ringwraiths at Weathertop its off camera. All that's described is flashing lights far off. Gandalf vs Saruman is not described at all. Gandalf fighting the Balrog is off camera. All we have is Ganfdalfs vague description of it "Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him" is as far as it gets. The Nine ride past Glorfindel as he is on foot so he does not take them on directly. The closest we get to seeing Elronds power is when he floods the river to sweep them away. The Dead fighting the bad guys is off camera, described by Gimli. The Lord of the Nine and Gandalf have a staring competition and then the Lord of the Nasgul buggers off. Saurons power over the Orcs is described as "the power that filled their hearts with laughter" in the last battle. When Sauron looked away the Orcs suddenly fell back in terror.

So yeah there plenty of room for nerd filling in the blanks.

[Johny Cee]

So have any of these characters being bandied about ever actually slugged it out with someone of their own level "on camera" in any of Tolkien's work? Or is it all vague as hell? Because I've taken part in more than my share of "which fictional characters can kick the others ass" nerd fights, and it's usually pretty boring if you don't actually know exactly what the combatants are supposed to DO to each other.

I want more "Spider-sense will negate the advantage of Predator's cloaking device!" nitty-gritty and less parsing of Tolkien's napkin notes, dammit!

It's not that kind of work.  LotR is more allegorical, and the meta-conflicts are much more about morality/philosophy than anything else.  Often, it's whoever conforms most to their nature or their philosophical side that wins rather than some DBZ idea of power levels.  One of the reasons for the books enduring popularity is that you can read it in so many ways...

The Witch-king, for instance: 
- Merry stabbed the guy with magic dagger, which may have made him vulnerable.
- Dawn had come, and he was weaker during the day.
- Good old fashioned Hubris:  By bragging about his invulnerability and acting reckless, he opened himself up to being killed
- WK's primary weapon was fear.  Earlier in the work, Eowyn said that she did not fear anything but being trapped in a women's traditional role, so she had no fear of death or of the Witch-king's power.  The WK had grown dependent on his fear ability pacifying resistance, so was unprepared for resistance.
- Eowyn was also seeking death, and trying to protect her uncle.

You could go on forever on all the little or big factors that contributed to why something happened, and you can weight them all separately depending on your own beliefs.


The Silmarillion is basically the mythic structure and backstory on everything in LotR...  and as such there is more epic kickassery.  Mostly it's in the mythic style ("And lo, seven times did Fingolfin strike at Morgoth, and seven times was he wounded!" type stuff), but there are some good bits, and people on both sides get busy slaughtering each other.

Sauron, by the way, gets his ass kicked  by a chick and her dog.   

[UnSub]

I want more "Spider-sense will negate the advantage of Predator's cloaking device!" nitty-gritty and less parsing of Tolkien's napkin notes, dammit!

According to extensive notes released by Christopher Tolkien, both Gandalf and Saruman have power levels over 9000.