Backdropping

[Stabs]

In the game I'm designing raiding uses a system for competitive pve. Raids are in Tiers and it's a race to the middle.

Backdropping will provide a visual clue to what other people are doing in the game.

So suppose you are in Tier 1. Tier 1 is a big zergfest drop-in raid similar to Warhammer Online's public quests. Tier 1 is set on a field in front of a castle and in the background you can see the castle walls which is where Tier 2 happens. You can't interact with the castle walls, it's just a graphical display.

If someone is actively raiding then one person will usually be assigned to carry a battle standard in any zone after Tier 1. This standard is just a big flag, it gives morale bonuses to the raid while it is active and attracts enemies. You don't have to have it up but the hit to your stats if it drops is probably enough to cause you to wipe. The person carrying it can't do anything else except keep it up, he needs to be defended by other players as the AI will try hard to kill him.

I have the idea that this will add an extra tanking element to the game's raids - you need a tank to carry it, plus tanks to intercept mobs coming for the flag carrier plus your regular boss tanks and add tanks that the encounter design would require.

In addition the flag is graphically mirrored onto the backdrops of other tiers. A graphic, similar in design to the flag, will be seen flying as long as the standard is held up and players in adjacent tiers will be able to see it fall if you wipe or lose your flag carrier.

So let's suppose my guild, The Pirates of Ick, are raiding in Tier 2, the castle walls. People in Tier 1 will see the flag that I designed when I made the guild (which is also our guild tabard). So my brave green skull and crossbones will flutter as a fairly small detail in the wall battle Tier 1 players see as part of the background to their play area.

Disaster strikes, our flag carrier goes down! Players in Tier 1 will see the flag disappear.

We rally! Another player heroically lifts the flag and we push through to kill the boss! The graphic I have in mind here is best explained by comparing it to one of those Warner Brothers cartoons where a champagne cork is popped and all sorts of colourful things fly out of the champagne bottle. However all of these little images are the proud green skull and crossbones flag of the Pirates of Ick. And this appears in the background that Tier 1 players will see while they are raiding - a glorious explosion of green pirate confetti showing the world we've won!


OK, on to my questions

Has this technique been done before? Where? How did it work?

Has anyone considered and discarded an idea like this?

Does the design create gameplay issues that I'm not seeing?

[Johny Cee]

I didn't bother to read your post, due to its atrocious grammar and spelling.

[Stabs]

Hi.

Every word is spelt correctly. My grammar is fine except for a missing full stop. There should be no comma in your sentence.

Edit: Ah, I see what the problem is.

This is a recent post of yours from elsewhere on these boards:

"Been reading some more Caitlin R. Kiernan.  Decent horrorish stuff, with the worst covers ever.  Heavily influenced by Lovecraft.  I really enjoyed The Red Tree, but haven't like any of the other books nearly that much.  Kiernan tends to concentrate on outsider type characters (punk rockers, goths, lots of lesbians, drag queens, drug addicts....)


Dan Simmons Carrion Comfort has been reissued.  I'm about 150 pages into the giant mmpb, and I'm really enjoying it. "

This is a list of your grammatical mistakes.

1. I have been, not Been.
2. Horror not horrorish. Horrorish is not a word.
3. No comma before with.
4. No comma before but.
5. Liked not like.
6. Simmons should be Simmons'
7. No comma before and


You have been taught that conjunctions need a comma before them. They don't except for serial commas and even there it's optional.

(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_conjunction)

You don't have to take my word for it or Wikipedia's. Just pick up your Dan Simmons book and look for the words and, but, and with. There won't be a comma in front of them unless, just as in the sentence I just typed, it's a serial comma used for style or disambiguation.

[Johny Cee]

So...  did you look at your post title?

[Nebu]

I like "spelt".  It takes me back to days of yore.

[Count Nerfedalot]

I like "spelt".  It takes me back to days of yore.

That's appropriate.  It is, after all, an ancient version of what we now call wheat.  With proteins similar enough that my wheat allergy triggers on it as if it was wheat, unfortunately.

As for Stabs' post, there was one mispelled word that I saw, but it was the post subject line.     Does the spell checker even bother to check the subject line?

As for the content of his post, I like the concept, but the devil is in the details (and how it's implemented).  For this to make much difference it seems the flags will need to be pretty big, big enough to easily identify them from a distance while in the midst of combat with some big somethingorother in your face trying to mash it in.  So something like a battle standard that really does take a strong man to hold up, not a wimpy 3'x5' home edition flag.  Also the image you describe of fireworks throwing off a bunch of little flags seems a bit, well, silly.  How about regular fireworks (or flames or explosions) silhouetting an indistinguishable figure as he/she carries the standard over/through/across/etc the wall/gate/bridge/etc representing the access to the next tier.

I got a bit confused about just how many different raids could be going on at once.  Initially I thought you were talking about multiple (as in more than two) raids, but now I'm not so sure.  If there are just two teams, then meh.  And even more so if there's only two tiers.  If this is a race of multiple raids advancing through multiple tiers simultaneously, I'm assuming that all would start at the same tier and you could have none, one or many raids in each given tier at a given time.  So if there were three raids in Tier 2, would the folks in Tier 1 see three flags on the walls ahead of them?  What would the other teams on the Tier 2 walls see?  Looking back, they should be able to see the flags of the raids on Tier 1 on the plains behind them.  And the flags of the raids on Tier 3 assaulting the donjon in the courtyard in front of them.  But what about the other raids on the same Tier?  I guess those flags would be visible on an inaccessible portion of the wall adjacent to them?

It does make for some pretty cool imagery.  My biggest question though is where are you going to get enough players to form enough raids to assault the exact same objective at the exact same time? 

[Sheepherder]

That's a lot of words for "I want to display my guild's flag in a skybox so lesser raiders can see my catassery."

[dusematic]

Hi.

Every word is spelt correctly. My grammar is fine except for a missing full stop. There should be no comma in your sentence.

Edit: Ah, I see what the problem is.

This is a recent post of yours from elsewhere on these boards:

"Been reading some more Caitlin R. Kiernan.  Decent horrorish stuff, with the worst covers ever.  Heavily influenced by Lovecraft.  I really enjoyed The Red Tree, but haven't like any of the other books nearly that much.  Kiernan tends to concentrate on outsider type characters (punk rockers, goths, lots of lesbians, drag queens, drug addicts....)


Dan Simmons Carrion Comfort has been reissued.  I'm about 150 pages into the giant mmpb, and I'm really enjoying it. "

This is a list of your grammatical mistakes.

1. I have been, not Been.
2. Horror not horrorish. Horrorish is not a word.
3. No comma before with.
4. No comma before but.
5. Liked not like.
6. Simmons should be Simmons'
7. No comma before and


You have been taught that conjunctions need a comma before them. They don't except for serial commas and even there it's optional.

(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_conjunction)

You don't have to take my word for it or Wikipedia's. Just pick up your Dan Simmons book and look for the words and, but, and with. There won't be a comma in front of them unless, just as in the sentence I just typed, it's a serial comma used for style or disambiguation.

LOL.  That's funny as shit.  Got to hand it to the new guy for staking out his claim and defending his turf.  Bravo Stabs.

[Stabs]

That's a lot of words for "I want to display my guild's flag in a skybox so lesser raiders can see my catassery."

Thanks Sheepherder that's exactly it. Has it been done before that anyone knows of?

I like "spelt".  It takes me back to days of yore.

That's appropriate.  It is, after all, an ancient version of what we now call wheat.  With proteins similar enough that my wheat allergy triggers on it as if it was wheat, unfortunately.

It's just British spelling (I'm British).
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/spelt?view=uk



As for Stabs' post, there was one mispelled word that I saw, but it was the post subject line.  

It's a new name for something I may have invented. If it's already around then let me know what people call it. Otherwise I think my name stands. I like Ps

As for the content of his post, I like the concept, but the devil is in the details (and how it's implemented).  For this to make much difference it seems the flags will need to be pretty big, big enough to easily identify them from a distance while in the midst of combat with some big somethingorother in your face trying to mash it in.

Huge flag that the guy in your raid carries (bigger than his avatar). Small flag or multiple small flags on the castle walls representing distant battles. Those can't be big because there may be many of them at once. I can see there's a problem if two guilds design similar flags and raid at the same time. I can live with that though.

Also the image you describe of fireworks throwing off a bunch of little flags seems a bit, well, silly.  How about regular fireworks (or flames or explosions) silhouetting an indistinguishable figure as he/she carries the standard over/through/across/etc the wall/gate/bridge/etc representing the access to the next tier.

The problem is with multiple visible raids. I'd like people to be able to identify which guild won. It is kind of sillier than I'd like for a game about sieging castles but I don't want there to be 15 guilds on the wall then someone wins and you can't see which one won.

I got a bit confused about just how many different raids could be going on at once.  Initially I thought you were talking about multiple (as in more than two) raids, but now I'm not so sure.

Multiple. Think WoW with windows into what other people are doing so you can be nosy.

If there are just two teams, then meh.  And even more so if there's only two tiers.  If this is a race of multiple raids advancing through multiple tiers simultaneously, I'm assuming that all would start at the same tier and you could have none, one or many raids in each given tier at a given time.

Correct.

So if there were three raids in Tier 2, would the folks in Tier 1 see three flags on the walls ahead of them?

Yes

What would the other teams on the Tier 2 walls see?  Looking back, they should be able to see the flags of the raids on Tier 1 on the plains behind them.  

Tier 1 doesn't have flags. It's intended to be a casual zone rather than a guild zone.

And the flags of the raids on Tier 3 assaulting the donjon in the courtyard in front of them.  But what about the other raids on the same Tier?  I guess those flags would be visible on an inaccessible portion of the wall adjacent to them?

I hadn't thought about adjacent flags. I guess on a castle wall in historical fights you might be able to see battle standards of other regiments assaulting the wall. So yup, your idea of them being visible on the sides but inaccessible is probably the best way to handle it.

It does make for some pretty cool imagery.  My biggest question though is where are you going to get enough players to form enough raids to assault the exact same objective at the exact same time?  

I will receive approx 12 million players when I kill WoW.



Just joking, the serious answer is it doesn't matter at all if flags are not up all the time. If you're raiding and no one's in Tier 2 there are no flags on the castle walls. That's fine.

Just a bit more on the game.

It's contested PVE.

You have 2 factions with a castle in the middle. Players play RPG type single characters. The castle is huge and is the setting for PVE raids. Tier 1 is open grouping casual pickup PVE. Tier 2 is more challenging. Tier 3 is more challenging still. Tier 4 is the win condition boss. When you kill him you win and the server closes.

The monetisation* is loser pays, winner re-rolls for free. So starting the game and re-starting after a loss will cost a fee.

There's more to it than this but that's the bare bones outline. In particular there are a number of elements that make it very interesting to see how other guilds are doing. As your faction beats bosses you get points, the faction with the most points gets to unlock deeper content. And ultimately you can be raiding in Tier 3 frantically trying to get through your content while watching the other side's elite attempting the Game Over boss.

Many thanks for excellent feedback.

*British spelling

[Stabs]

So...  did you look at your post title?

As I clearly demonstrate in my original post backdropping is a new word which supports multiple spellings in the grand tradition of such words as judgment (also spelt judgement) and spelt (also spelt spelled).

New concept, new word. Add Ps to taste.

[Sheepherder]

Thanks Sheepherder that's exactly it. Has it been done before that anyone knows of?

Probably every 3D game since Quake has the technology, it's not really new at all.  The last major development is repositioning the camera actor in the skybox and thus do "nearby" scenes without having them look odd due to the lack of parallax.  It is probably possible with existing technology to get one level, players and all, to appear real-time in the backdrop of another level, though you'd be looking at a pretty harsh performance cost.

[Stabs]

After reviewing statistical data from our initial audience response focus group (this thread) using advanced quantitative methods (counting) we have determined that read-throughs of our original post can be elevated by up to 20% (one person) by using the leaner, more streamlined, version of our new word.

As a result we have hotfixed the title removing one of the Ps.

We would like to applaud the vision of our design team for making this innovative word capable of supporting multiple variant spellings through our revolutionary in-house multiple Ps technology which has allowed us to make this fix so smoothly.

Thank you.

Thanks Sheepherder that's exactly it. Has it been done before that anyone knows of?

Probably every 3D game since Quake has the technology, it's not really new at all.  The last major development is repositioning the camera actor in the skybox and thus do "nearby" scenes without having them look odd due to the lack of parallax.  It is probably possible with existing technology to get one level, players and all, to appear real-time in the backdrop of another level, though you'd be looking at a pretty harsh performance cost.

Thank you Sheepherder, that is precisely the information I was looking for. I'm really grateful.

I'll go and crawl back under my rock now.

[Mrbloodworth]

Thanks Sheepherder that's exactly it. Has it been done before that anyone knows of?

Probably every 3D game since Quake has the technology, it's not really new at all.  The last major development is repositioning the camera actor in the skybox and thus do "nearby" scenes without having them look odd due to the lack of parallax.  It is probably possible with existing technology to get one level, players and all, to appear real-time in the backdrop of another level, though you'd be looking at a pretty harsh performance cost.

His idea would be a bit more complicated there brother. I just dont know why anyone would want to. His idea almost reads as if one castle, is broken down into about 4 different instances, all for the sake of the flag display.

[Tarami]

To me it sounds like something that is better shown on a map than in the world. That would also be trivial to implement. There are too many visibility issues with having billboards in-game like that. Either other things are blocked by them, or other things block them depending on which route you decide to take. Having to stand in a clearing of significant size, possibly at a certain elevation (to see over walls, trees and other obstacles) and face a certain way seems a bit contrived.

[Sheepherder]

His idea would be a bit more complicated there brother. I just dont know why anyone would want to. His idea almost reads as if one castle, is broken down into about 4 different instances, all for the sake of the flag display.

Not really.  It's a skybox, besides that you need a colour/design changing flag (need models with a white base texture, a shader effect that applies new texture(s) over top) and the communication between different servers to periodically supply new model and texture data to the flag object.  The live camera into the other zone would be harder, because you'd be dealing with lots of data shared between the servers, but that's not what he's asking, it's just me throwing out there wat is in all likelihood technically possible.

[Bzalthek]

I don't know what all this techno babble is about, but I love this Stabs fellow.  He's got chutzpah.