Blizzard's VP of Game Design admits Arenas the biggest mistake.

[Modern Angel]

I am honest to god dumbfounded that anything he said was taken as a swipe at the arena players. That was one of the most forthright, honest and (most importantly) introspective statements I've seen from anyone in an MMO industry built on lies, marketing hype and illusion. Especially from someone at his level in the industry.

[Ashamanchill]

We're all just venting our frustration at something that could have been fun, but was turned into a brutal manifestation of the worst side of of wow; you must be x geared and y specced to enter.

[Modern Angel]

No, I get that part. I don't get the extremely small handful taking it as dumping on arena players. When it's just not that. At all. Remotely.

[Lantyssa]

They're defensive and don't like being the Weakest Link.

[Mrbloodworth]

http://www.arenajunkies.com/

Those macros are beyond retarded. E-sport my ass.

[Nebu]

Those macros are beyond retarded. E-sport my ass.

Welcome to my comments from a page or two ago. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Those macros are beyond retarded. E-sport my ass.

Welcome to my comments from a page or two ago. 

I have never thought a RPG system could have any real PvP. I didn't know how really bad it was, until now, And it has nothing to do with the RPG system. :)

[Musashi]

Oh yea dude.  It's a relative thing.  I know I'm risking tossing my coin into the WUA fountain here, and I'm still not convinced he's not just trolling us all in order to turn this into another lore thread (I know your moves, fucker).  But, he's totally right about the majority of players when he says that the amount of 'skill' they bicker over is minuscule.  Like, "You don't know the secret macro that must be known by everyone, even the noobiest noob!  You are therefore a lower form of life!" 

If I go hang out with some hardcore PvP master dudes, and they act all hardcore, well then they must be good, right?  Yelling in vent?  Check.  Ridiculing others?  Check.  Complaining about x class, y spec, z comp?  Check.  But in the majority of cases, I'll wager, a PhD in Military Tactics is nowhere to be found.  Quite the contrary in my humble experience.  They're not better than you, they're just literally poop-flingin' crazy.  That's what it boils down to.  They trade their sanity for the opportunity get berated over the course of months/years, probably by someone who was himself been broken down and humiliated not too long ago himself.  And almost as a side effect of their poor behavior, they get somewhat better at killing Elves and Dwarfs on the interbutts.  My theory is that this is the method cavemen used to figure out how to fight mammoths and shit.  I just think it's sad that we haven't really evolved.  And if that offends you, well, you may want to direct your rage in a positive direction.  (IE Get help.)  And this is coming from someone who understands perfectly well the need to separate noob from state.  But some people just have to take it that one step too far.

The problem won't go away either because nobody would ever believe coming into it that it really is that bad, and once they're subjected to it and get sucked into it, they'll never admit that it's the case.  The last thing anyone wants is to appear foolish.

[Gobbeldygook]

Those macros are beyond retarded. E-sport my ass.

What magical INSTANT SKILL macros are you looking at?  Please cite specific examples.
---

If I go hang out with some hardcore PvP master dudes...

They will sound exactly like people in raids.  For every arena player that screams throughout the match and nerd rages after every loss, there's a a team that is slightly more talkative than a Charlie Chaplin movie and just quietly sighs after every loss before requeing.  Troxed wasn't talking about arenas.

[Kageh]

If I go hang out with some hardcore PvP master dudes...

They will sound exactly like people in raids.  For every arena player that screams throughout the match and nerd rages after every loss, there's a a team that is slightly more talkative than a Charlie Chaplin movie and just quietly sighs after every loss before requeing.  Troxed wasn't talking about arenas.

Very true.

It is unbelievably popular to bash Arenas and PvP in WoW nowadays. Because, as opposed to the PvE game which is obviously rocket science and catering exclusively to extremely skilled, civilized and highly trained individual role models of win, PvP is something for immature losers resorting to yelling, macros for winning and being general dorks. Not to forget they are also responsible for having Aimed Shot nerfed by 3%, which of course ruined many a virtual existance in the world of Azeroth.

I'm sure UO had a better balanced PVP implementation in 1997 because of the original stat/skill cap concept, but other than that it's seriously a good attempt at pairing Diku with PVP, way better than other MMOs to date. While it's not exactly Counterstrike, for those who want to partake for the competitive side of it, it works. Arenas took the "gank" and "ambush" and "zerg" out of the "PvP" and made it halfway balanced. Yeah, pretty much like dueling for points.

Of course it became a nightmare to balance PvE because of the PvP findings, and of course it's a totally different matter if a warrior uses his Mortal Strike vs. a 20k HP dumb AI mob or against a 5k HP clothie who is supposed to be "balanced" against him. Tough luck, they get paid serious money, they should figure something out.

[Mrbloodworth]

Those macros are beyond retarded. E-sport my ass.

What magical INSTANT SKILL macros are you looking at?  Please cite specific examples.
---

lolz.

It is unbelievably popular to bash Arenas and PvP in WoW nowadays. Because, as opposed to the PvE game which is obviously rocket science and catering exclusively to extremely skilled, civilized and highly trained individual role models of win, PvP is something for immature losers resorting to yelling, macros for winning and being general dorks. Not to forget they are also responsible for having Aimed Shot nerfed by 3%, which of course ruined many a virtual existance in the world of Azeroth.

Oh for fucks sake, none even approached saying any fucking thing like this.  This is why you get picked on.

You two need to not be so butthurt. (Native tong, yes?)

[Ingmar]

Arenas really do have a much larger skill component than most of the people in this thread are giving credit for. I've been on the losing end of plenty of matches where I just got flat outplayed (and won a few where we outplayed comps we should have lost to, too), and I'm far the worst PVP player in WoW (Fordel might disagree after being my arena partner for a while  ). Yes, composition and gear combined probably play an overall larger role than skill but skill is still a big chunk of it. I'm surprised to see people who I know have extensive raiding experience say there's no skill in it; many of the same skills that cause people to succeed or fail at raiding will have the same effect in arena.

This whole "oh it is all gear and comp" thing reminds me of a common complaint from (dare I say it?) lesser players in other 'deckbuilding' contexts. Arena actually has a lot in common with those, right down to the ELO rating system. Nobody likes to admit they lost because they didn't play well. They'll blame everything they can before looking at their own shortcomings as a player, whether that's bad die rolls or poor luck on draws or the opponent playing overpowered cards or figures, or whatever else. The great players are the ones who come away from those matches not pushing the blame onto outside factors but saying "what did I do wrong that I can change for next time?"

[Nebu]

WoW pvp takes skill.  That's very true.  I've been humbled in open pvp a number of times by people outplaying me. 

Just to be clear, my point was that:  a) Macros and UI elements remove some of the skill requirement.  b) gear and arena group composition play a significant role in success until you reach the uppermost tiers. 

[Mrbloodworth]

WoW pvp takes skill.  That's very true.  I've been humbled in open pvp a number of times by people outplaying me.  

Just to be clear, my point was that:  a) Macros and UI elements remove some of the skill requirement.  b) gear and arena group composition play a significant role in success until you reach the uppermost tiers.  

Now nebu, you know there is no Grey zone, we MUST speak in black and white. For no one can truly say there is some skill.

There is skill, or there is not skill.

Tisk tisk.

Why weakest instantly is rounded down to "FAIL!" and an insult to players is one of the most fascinating things about players.

instantly is rounded down

rounded down

[ghost]

To be fair, there is more to "skill" than simply logging on and mashing buttons.  Preparation isn't necessarily a bad thing, and knowing your class isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I think if they got rid of the macros it would probably make it a bit more even.  I'm not sure that the use of macros was designed for PvP in wow-  they probably were more designed toward raiding.  Still, everyone knows what's available and can do macros of their own if they want.  If you are losing because of your macros..........well, then put in some macros.  Also, group composition is important in almost every sport that is played in the real world.  You have to have guards, forwards and sometimes a center for basketball; quarterback, running back, linemen, etc. for football and so on.  It isn't the end of the world that class plays a role.  It just is what it is. 

[Hoax]

[No disrespect guys of course, no disrespect but..]

They're not better than you, they're just literally poop-flingin' crazy.  That's what it boils down to.  They trade their sanity for the opportunity get berated over the course of months/years, probably by someone who was himself been broken down and humiliated not too long ago himself.  And almost as a side effect of their poor behavior, they get somewhat better at killing Elves and Dwarfs on the interbutts.  My theory is that this is the method cavemen used to figure out how to fight mammoths and shit.  I just think it's sad that we haven't really evolved.  And if that offends you, well, you may want to direct your rage in a positive direction.  (IE Get help.)

 

Oh for fucks sake, none even approached saying any fucking thing like this.  This is why you get picked on.

You two need to not be so butthurt. (Native tong, yes?)

   Read the quote above perhaps?

Arenas really do have a much larger skill component than most of the people in this thread are giving credit for. I've been on the losing end of plenty of matches where I just got flat outplayed (and won a few where we outplayed comps we should have lost to, too), and I'm far the worst PVP player in WoW (Fordel might disagree after being my arena partner for a while  ). Yes, composition and gear combined probably play an overall larger role than skill but skill is still a big chunk of it. I'm surprised to see people who I know have extensive raiding experience say there's no skill in it; many of the same skills that cause people to succeed or fail at raiding will have the same effect in arena.

This whole "oh it is all gear and comp" thing reminds me of a common complaint from (dare I say it?) lesser players in other 'deckbuilding' contexts. Arena actually has a lot in common with those, right down to the ELO rating system. Nobody likes to admit they lost because they didn't play well. They'll blame everything they can before looking at their own shortcomings as a player, whether that's bad die rolls or poor luck on draws or the opponent playing overpowered cards or figures, or whatever else. The great players are the ones who come away from those matches not pushing the blame onto outside factors but saying "what did I do wrong that I can change for next time?"

I said exactly the same thing earlier, scrubs in MtG always want to believe its deck composition, scrubs in LoL always blame team composition, skill, skill comes first.  True story.  In fucking TF2 there are scrubs who constantly blame X class versus Y class for why they get their ass handed to them.  If you don't have the requisite skill level you can't even know how to compete.  How high that level is depends on the level of the competition.  Same thing happens in table top, bad players pretend every game is determined by the dice.  Not so, skill is the big majority of why one guy wins and one loses.

Only someone who has never been elite at an activity would think otherwise.  When I was a lesser player in the OGL top 50 tribes scene I knew players who were elite.  I watched them play on a weekly basis.  Skill was everything.  When internet cafes were all the rage I remember watching some top 100 US starcraft players play, one guy played a 1v4 against people who by my standards were quite good at SC and fucking smoked them, there was some kind of anti rush rule in place to make it fair but I mean it was crazy how good his micro was and how fast he took in everything.

Shit I was pretty good at Myth1, good enough to crush a vast majority of the playerbase, came down to skill even on modes like King of the Hill with 8 people I knew the only people who were going to win were me and other players ranked around my rank.

I've been near enough to the top that I will always be able to tell when I'm playing a game and I have zero fucking chance because I'm not good enough.  Its more then just not having the skill.  You don't even know what the skills are when you aren't good.  You don't understand the game well enough to even try to learn it yet.  Trying to explain that to someone who scoffs at the very idea of high level competition is as productive as trying to convince Paelos to give up on the whole zombie jew thing.

PvP'ers may be in constant denial about just how niche and unimportant their subculture is but that is hardly the only type of denial going on around here.

[Gobbeldygook]

I think if they got rid of the macros it would probably make it a bit more even.

What mysterious, game-ruining macros are you guys talking about?  The majority of macros I've seen used are just for simplifying your keybinds, like a macro that sheeps your target or sheeps your focus target if you're holding shift when you press it.  Others are for targeting in unconventional ways, like blinding the target you have your mouse cursor over so you can maintain keep your eye on your focus and target.  Are you talking about the ones warriors use so they can actually use their defensive cooldowns or what?  Macros that target your target's target?  Macros that do something different if you're targeting an enemy or a friendly target?

As a warning to anyone seeking to provide examples, a number of AJ's sample macros do not work anymore.  For example, the totem stomping macro on the warlock page was deliberately broken in patch 3.2 so warlocks couldn't just mindlessly spam macros to destroy tremor totems.

[Nebu]

Gob,

Correct me if I'm wrong... but if macros didn't impart a competitive advantage, would anyone bother to use them?

EDIT: Also, having a UI component that screams "YOU NEED TO PUSH BUTTON A NOW TO MAXIMIZE DPS" or "YOU HAVE EFFECT X ON YOU" doesn't hurt either. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Read the quote above perhaps?

Sorry, I should have said anyone that hasn't gone apeshit about the interview. On both sides.

[Draegan]

Gob,

Correct me if I'm wrong... but if macros didn't impart a competitive advantage, would anyone bother to use them?

EDIT: Also, having a UI component that screams "YOU NEED TO PUSH BUTTON A NOW TO MAXIMIZE DPS" or "YOU HAVE EFFECT X ON YOU" doesn't hurt either. 

Those UI components for DPS are for PVE situations.

--

As far targeting macros, they are built into the game.  Everyone has access to them without downloading one addon.  If you're not using them it's your own fault.

[LK]

It'd be nice to know you're elite at something. But I would second guess it even if I reached that status.

[Draegan]

Are you asking if I'm elite at something?  I never got into WOW pvp if you were asking.

[LK]

No, commenting in general. I fully believe that those who are "elite" operate on a separate plane of reality that allows them to see things the scrubs don't. I read some dissertation about how scrubs put rules and regulations on themselves to play more "honorably" and consider elites "cheaters", "hackers", "playing against the spirit of the game", etc. I completely agreed with the elite's perspective: scrubs need to fucking get over themselves if they want to stop being scrubs.

Story of my life.

[Fordel]

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html ?

[Gobbeldygook]

Gob,

Correct me if I'm wrong... but if macros didn't impart a competitive advantage, would anyone bother to use them?

EDIT: Also, having a UI component that screams "YOU NEED TO PUSH BUTTON A NOW TO MAXIMIZE DPS" or "YOU HAVE EFFECT X ON YOU" doesn't hurt either. 

Of course macros provide an advantage, but it's not a secret advantage that only those initiated into the High Mysteries of Arena are allowed to learn about.  Your typical arena player is no more capable of writing complex macros than your typical raider.  They copy/paste macros other people come up with and prostrate themselves on AJ or the WoW UI/Macro forum if they can't figure out how to modify it to do what they want.  Coming up with a set of keybinds and macros that work for you is just part of preparation, no different from coming up with strategy's for the comps you expect to fight.

Blizzard does pay attention to what macros are used and will change the system so particular macros stop working if they think it really violates the design intent.  I mentioned totem stomping macros above, but the other one a lot of people noticed was when they broke /castrandom macros, which irritated a lot of PVEers and people that just liked to use it to summon random pets/mounts.  The most notorious recent example was a macro that took advantage of a new piece of information passed to the client which was "Is this spell interruptible?"  Unfortunately, they overlooked that this allowed players to create spammable macros that would interrupt any spellcast but otherwise wouldn't waste the kick/pummel/etc.  It was quickly hotfixed.

Are there addons just about everyone uses?  Absolutely.  A lot of it's just a matter of fixing up blizzard's UI.  Look at the standard UI for shamans.  If a shaman wants to see if his totems are up, he has to take his eyes off the field and look at the upper-left corner of his screen.  So most shaman use an addon that puts them closer to the center of the screen.  Just about everyone uses an addon like Power Auras so they can tell when important buffs/debuffs are active on themselves/their enemies without having to scan through buff bars or squint at unit frames.  None of these are secret addons and any arena guide will go over them.

[LK]

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html ?

Yeah, that's the one.

[Fordel]

Yea, I'm not sure how much of that can apply to WoW. Unless you consider being unwilling to re-roll a 'mental block'.

[Musashi]

[No disrespect guys of course, no disrespect but..]

[Ingmar]

Yea, I'm not sure how much of that can apply to WoW. Unless you consider being unwilling to re-roll a 'mental block'.

Now that most classes have at least a viable spec I think it brings it a bit closer to the CCG paradigm, since most people could just respec to a potentially viable character rather than having to reroll entirely.

[Nebu]

I will bet that macros are used by less than 25% of WoW's subscribers.  I'd also bet that custom UI elements are used by less than half.  Most mainstream gamers will just use the interface given to them by the developer.  This automatically starts those players at a disadvantage to those players with more gaming knowledge.  If a developer wants to level the playing field as much as possible, the first thing they will do is to make sure that the interface is nearly identical between combatants.  With the wide variety of mods out there, this is already improbable.  Add in the streamlining afforded by macros and the advantage grows.  Now... at the top of the competitive charts, none of this matters.  In that case the game self selects and adjusts.  

All of that aside, I've learned one thing from my 10+ years in PvP MMO's:  PvP enthusiasts will do ANYTHING they can to gain a competitive edge.  This includes cheating.  If developers want to enter into the market of PvP-inclusive games, they need to accept this notion or be more rigorous about controlling it.  

[Hoax]

My mother plays WoW, she is 50 something, she raids but her guild is fairly terrible.  Hunters that can't outdps a paladin in tanking gear etc. last time I paid any attention.  They were on the latest content but not hard mode when I spent some time around her over the summer.  She uses tons of add ons.  Your numbers are utter horseshit, I don't think anyone plays WoW with just the default ui beyond their first month in the game.

They may not use them well, they might not have the best add ons but the idea that half the population of WoW has never heard of or bothered with an add on seems fucking ridiculous to me.

[No disrespect guys of course, no disrespect but..]

Terrible poster is terrible.

[Ingmar]

My non-scientific contribution is that well over half my guild uses at least a couple UI mods, even if it is just recount or auctioneer.

[DLRiley]

Lolz, I guess this thread has a problem with a few aspects of competitive video gaming, as silly as that obviously sounds. Assuming that competitive video gaming is any less bullshit than online social paradigms and crafting, there is a large segment of players who play competitive games without being any good at it. In fact they are the bulk of the RTS and FPS player bases. You know the guys with 1:300 kill death ratios. It may sound sad but these guys DO play the game for its competitive merits, and without which, whats the point? So a desire to win, actually having a shot at the top of the ladder, or simply having fun while being thrashed by obviously better players and still laugh about it is inherently hard coded into these games. The only problem you face when you have a game like WoW is that just because its an online video game that allows players to fight each other doesn't mean its competitive.

I think that blizzard VP ultimately wish to address that, WoW has arena's, yes, WoW is competitive? Barely, and to bring it to even moderate level of competition would require the game to be fundamentally redesigned and for the playerbase to play WoW for different reasons besides god mode, a money costing and potentially money losing venture for a company that didn't wish to move WoW in that direction from the start.  Its undeniable, both in the console world and PC world that competitive pvp, fighting games, sports games, rts, fps, even down to the good old trading card games, have a large appeal despite the fact that 99.99% of the playerbase suck. Only in mmos is where the entitlement issue of "I must feel powerful at ALL time, while hugging my granny" is prevalent. The real issue is that can mmos make that transition from being the Special Olympics of pvp to being of the same caliber as 24/7 orange X server in tf2.

[Merusk]

I'm surprised to see people who I know have extensive raiding experience say there's no skill in it; many of the same skills that cause people to succeed or fail at raiding will have the same effect in arena.

Neither WUA (and by extension me, since I've pot-shotted on his side) said skill doesn't matter.  He said it's not the sole defining metric some are holding it up to be. At the high end?  Yes.  Against an equally geared and comprised team?  Yes.  However, for where the majority of players will fall and play, skill is only one of 3 parts. The other two being gear (thus my lulz resil comments) and class comp (all holy priest team, lulz.)

Skill matters, yes.  It's not THE thing, though.

My non-scientific contribution is that well over half my guild uses at least a couple UI mods, even if it is just recount or auctioneer.

Hell yes.  I hate add-ons but even I in my crusade to use as few as possible have several convenience ones I just won't do without.  Including Sell-O-Matic for all that grey and white crap that you accumulate but don't want to go through your bags item-by-item to get rid of.  

[Sjofn]

I also tend to reject add ons but I have a few, mostly so Ingmar will shut up about how I should have a boss mod.