winter patch: Dominion

[eldaec]

instead of increasing taxes, why not just lower the bounties on those rats/rewards/bonuses?

Because this way they remove one excuse for empire players not to at least try out an player empire corp, player corps are more likely to lead to players interacting and experiencing more of the game, even if it is initially in empire.

The more people interact with other players and the more parts of the game players are exposed to, the more likely they are to move toward the end game in 0.0, and the more likely they are to stick around longer.

[Reg]

 

[DLRiley]

Yeah i second the rolling of the eyes.

[Skullface]

instead of increasing taxes, why not just lower the bounties on those rats/rewards/bonuses?

Because this way they remove one excuse for empire players not to at least try out an player empire corp, player corps are more likely to lead to players interacting and experiencing more of the game, even if it is initially in empire.

The more people interact with other players and the more parts of the game players are exposed to, the more likely they are to move toward the end game in 0.0, and the more likely they are to stick around longer.

Makes sense to me.

[Nerf]

Eh its not even about 'getting them to move into 0.0', its about getting people into player corps so they can interact with people and have more fun.  Eve really isnt that much fun solo, and the NPC corps, while they may generally have a few people chatting in the corp chat, don't generally harbor much interaction on any real level, nor do they give you any sense of belonging.  Getting people to move into real corps should do wonders for retention.

[Brolan]

I'm in NPC corp CAS at the moment and the members are up in arms.  They are royally pissed at the moment.  Many are talking about creating one-player corps instead of being forced to join another player corp.  How is pushing players into one-player corps going to help the game?  Who is going to answer the questions of the noobs when everyones' alt is in a one-player corp?

Leave the carebears alone, they don't want to play PVP.   If you get them pissed-off enough they will starting leaving the game.  And how will pulling in less money help CCP?

[Skullface]

I'm in NPC corp CAS at the moment and the members are up in arms.  They are royally pissed at the moment.  Many are talking about creating one-player corps instead of being forced to join another player corp.  How is pushing players into one-player corps going to help the game?  Who is going to answer the questions of the noobs when everyones' alt is in a one-player corp?

Leave the carebears alone, they don't want to play PVP.   If you get them pissed-off enough they will starting leaving the game.  And how will pulling in less money help CCP?

I forsee CCP suddenly adding in patch notes that require all corporations have atleast X number of members if that happens.

[Fordel]

It's more like the 0.0 CCP look at the empire players as trash, and the empire players just wish the 0.0 players CCP would leave them the fuck alone to rat/mine/mission.

  ?



Now everyone can experience the joys of empire wars and station camping?



My guess is unless the Tax rate ramps up severely, no one will give a shit and just mission 11% more to make up for it or whatever. They'll wait the extra week to buy their Navy Raven or whatever they use these days.

[Goumindong]

instead of increasing taxes, why not just lower the bounties on those rats/rewards/bonuses?

Because this way they remove one excuse for empire players not to at least try out an player empire corp, player corps are more likely to lead to players interacting and experiencing more of the game, even if it is initially in empire.

The more people interact with other players and the more parts of the game players are exposed to, the more likely they are to move toward the end game in 0.0, and the more likely they are to stick around longer.

Even if they don't move towards the end game in 0.0, iirc CCP's numbers pretty clearly show that player corps hold players into the game much much better than NPC corps.

[Simond]

Should be higher, or scale with time spent in the corp, or something.
1% tax for the first three months, then 11% for the next three, then 21% and so on.

Do you have a reason for this or is it just more "punish the empire dwellers" nonsense?

CCP has said, since the year dot, that they want all people to eventually move out of empire and into low/nullsec. The whole "Sit in Empire running L4s for eternity" was a fuck-up they never intended to happen. Adding time-scaled drawback to people who refuse to take off the training wheels after a reasonable period seems like a logical way for them to follow this design.

[Reg]

Which just confirms my long standing opinion that the CCP devs stumbled into success completely unintentionally.  If it were up to them EVE would still be a minor league niche game with 20,000 subscribers.

But by all means. They should continue to alienate the largest single segment of their playerbase.  What could possibly go wrong?

[Brolan]

Which just confirms my long standing opinion that the CCP devs stumbled into success completely unintentionally.  If it were up to them EVE would still be a minor league niche game with 20,000 subscribers.

But by all means. They should continue to alienate the largest single segment of their playerbase.  What could possibly go wrong?

EVE still can be a minor niche game with 20,000 players.  All they have to do it keep annoying the carebears so they leave.   Then prices for everything in the game will go up because these are people who did much more mining/researching/building than fighting.

[Amarr HM]

I agree with Simond, it's an MMO players shouldn't be rewarded for hanging around empire with their alts completely untouchable. That said, all they have to do is setup a cheap office somewhere and hope they don't get wardecced, so it's really not a huge change.

[DLRiley]

EvE has 300k players by some miracle of unintentional design. But CCP is deciding and actively attempting to piss of 280k players in order to fulfill the "true vision of EVE"? At around the same time their making a console add on to the EVE universe? Let me get by dancing shoes, i got the grave stone right here.

[Sparky]

PVP players adapt to radical nerf/buff cycles to rival WoW and this patch is about to pull the rug out from nearly everyone in a big alliance.  I'm sure empire mission runners will live with this tiny change that's easy to circumvent.  Those who end up in a proper player corp might even find they like it!

[lac]

My, my, aren't we overly dramatic today...

I can't see the harm in providing some incentive to get people out of the npc corps and into player run ones. It's hardly a make or break change, all it does is level the playing field a bit, after all most corps have about 10% taxes and hopefully this change will make people ponder their options and maybe even have them end up in an enjoyable social group.

Despite people making a big deal out of this, giving players a nudge to go and explore your sandbox is good design.

[Reg]

I'd hardly say I was being overly dramatic. People aren't going to quit in large numbers over this - but it is just another in a seemingly endless series of irritants to the people that have no desire to play the game according to the CCP "vision" who actually pay the lions share of the subscription fees. I'm amazed that as many miners and mission runners keep paying their 15 dollars a month in the first place. Mining is about the most boring task I've ever seen in any game and EVE still has about the crappiest PVE anywhere.

It's not like these silly people are demanding the devs do anything crazy like maybe devote 10 percent of their time to making the game more fun for the vast majority of their customers. God forbid that they should be distracted from their vision and forced to take a little time off from their never-ending tinkering with 0.0.

For the life of me, I don't understand why you people are bothered so much by the Empire carebears. They do nothing to interfere with your gameplay. All they do is pay their money every month and allow the devs to concentrate almost entirely on keeping you and friends entertained.

[IainC]

I'd hardly say I was being overly dramatic. People aren't going to quit in large numbers over this - but it is just another in a seemingly endless series of irritants to the people that have no desire to play the game according to the CCP "vision" who actually pay the lions share of the subscription fees. I'm amazed that as many miners and mission runners keep paying their 15 dollars a month in the first place. Mining is about the most boring task I've ever seen in any game and EVE still has about the crappiest PVE anywhere.

It's not like these silly people are demanding the devs do anything crazy like maybe devote 10 percent of their time to making the game more fun for the vast majority of their customers. God forbid that they should be distracted from their vision and forced to take a little time off from their never-ending tinkering with 0.0.

For the life of me, I don't understand why you people are bothered so much by the Empire carebears. They do nothing to interfere with your gameplay. All they do is pay their money every month and allow the devs to concentrate almost entirely on keeping you and friends entertained.

You must not have been paying attention for the past few patch cycles. Missions and Empire specific stuff has had a whole bunch of new stuff added - not counting general stuff that applies equally to all players such as ship changes. Missions may be boring but they offer the best personal rewards in the game and, if you are in an NPC corp, those rewards are practically risk free. That's the underlying problem that 0.0 dwellers have with 'carebears'. Not that they aren't playing the game right but because the people who do open themselves to more risk end up getting less reward and that's why many 0.0 players want to see missioneering brought down a notch or two.

When the best way to get minerals is to shoot rats and loot the wrecks instead of mining asteroids then there may be something wrong. Add in the fact that the guy shooting rats is also earning bounties, mission rewards and loyalty points too and you have a seriously unbalanced risk/reward ratio.

[lac]

I wasn't referring to you, Reg and I'm happily carebearing in empire too.

This move is part of the newbie experience overhaul they've been doing and if anything it makes things a bit more fair to people in player run corps in empire because it removes one of the 'unfair' advantages the NPC corps have over player run corps. People will join or create more player run corps which makes empire livelier.

I don't know but I'd assume most people in empire are in player run corps. If that is the case, this small change should benefit most of the empire carebears. If this isn't the case then it's more than necessary imo.

[Reg]

When the best way to get minerals is to shoot rats and loot the wrecks instead of mining asteroids then there may be something wrong. Add in the fact that the guy shooting rats is also earning bounties, mission rewards and loyalty points too and you have a seriously unbalanced risk/reward ratio.

Most 0.0 players I know have an alt in Empire supporting them. Based on that, it seems to me that the real problem is lack of isk making opportunities in 0.0 not that living in Empire pays too well.

[Skullface]

EvE has 300k players by some miracle of unintentional design. But CCP is deciding and actively attempting to piss of 280k players in order to fulfill the "true vision of EVE"? At around the same time their making a console add on to the EVE universe? Let me get by dancing shoes, i got the grave stone right here.

If EVE folded due to an 11% tax rate I would shit myself with laughter.

On the other hand, the chest beating is a bit much, isn't it?

When the best way to get minerals is to shoot rats and loot the wrecks instead of mining asteroids then there may be something wrong. Add in the fact that the guy shooting rats is also earning bounties, mission rewards and loyalty points too and you have a seriously unbalanced risk/reward ratio.

Most 0.0 players I know have an alt in Empire supporting them. Based on that, it seems to me that the real problem is lack of isk making opportunities in 0.0 not that living in Empire pays too well.

I was under the impression that sov was a license to print money? Or is that only a few alliances?

[IainC]

When the best way to get minerals is to shoot rats and loot the wrecks instead of mining asteroids then there may be something wrong. Add in the fact that the guy shooting rats is also earning bounties, mission rewards and loyalty points too and you have a seriously unbalanced risk/reward ratio.

Most 0.0 players I know have an alt in Empire supporting them. Based on that, it seems to me that the real problem is lack of isk making opportunities in 0.0 not that living in Empire pays too well.

Traditionally the two ways to make money in 0.0 at a personal level (not counting moon mining here) are ratting or mining. You can also fly around, kill guys and take their stuff but you don't need to live in 0.0 to do that, in fact it's easier to do that if you're in an NPC corp and base yourself in lowsec. Making 0.0 mining more lucrative by itself would unbalance a lot of other economic factors, you'd either have to increase the density of rare minerals or increase the yields, either way you're going to be devaluing minerals across the board as a result. Why not simply nerf the refinables from mission loot? That also helps Empire miners who won't have to compete with mission runners dumping large quantities of cheap minerals on the market.

Ratting income drops sharply with the number of people in system. I've docked up for the day now because there are 10 people in my home system working 16 belts, that brings the isk/hour right down to the point where it's not really worth it any more. Any change to ratting profitability has to take that into account without breaking the system in the other direction when you have single ratters efficiently chaining in multi-belt systems by themselves. And again, increasing the density of currently rare items such as officer and faction drops will simply serve to depress those markets.

[Reg]

From what I've seen most of the serious money making happens at the corporate or alliance level. The leaders can do quite well for themselves if they're dishonest enough. The average 0.0 nobody makes his money ratting or mining. Or missioning on his empire alt.

Edit : Just read your post above mine. So yes, it looks to me like there are serious problems making money at the individual level in 0.0.  Torturing the carebears isn't going to anything to solve that problem.  I don't believe the 11 percent tax in NPC corporations has anything at all to do with "risk vs. reward."  It's just the retarded CCP devs trying once again to force people to play the only part of the game they have any real interest in.

[Goumindong]

Increasing density in 0.0 personal production would have little to no effect on other markets. Eve exists with price floors and caps on all tech 1 inputs, it really would not be a problem as you claim

[IainC]

From what I've seen most of the serious money making happens at the corporate or alliance level. The leaders can do quite well for themselves if they're dishonest enough. The average 0.0 nobody makes his money ratting or mining. Or missioning on his empire alt.

Edit : Just read your post above mine. So yes, it looks to me like there are serious problems making money at the individual level in 0.0.  Torturing the carebears isn't going to anything to solve that problem.  I don't believe the 11 percent tax in NPC corporations has anything at all to do with "risk vs. reward."  It's just the retarded CCP devs trying once again to force people to play the only part of the game they have any real interest in.

11% tax is 'torturing carebears'? Ok....

Remember that only bounties and mission rewards are taxed. Mission bonuses are tax free as are market transactions. High sec miners won't notice, high sec industrialists won't notice, only the guys who are running back to back level 4s will see any impact from this and frankly those guys should be exposed to more risk.

For full disclosure I have an Empire industrialist alt in an NPC corp parked in high sec churning out t2 items for sale to mission runners. My main has spent most of her career to date chaining level 4s in high sec so I'm fully aware of the situation faced by the average Empire dweller even if now I'm one of the evil 0.0 denizens trying to impose my playstyle on you or something.

[eldaec]

Making 0.0 mining more lucrative by itself would unbalance a lot of other economic factors, you'd either have to increase the density of rare minerals or increase the yields, either way you're going to be devaluing minerals across the board as a result.

This is all true, but it is almost certainly going to be one of the outcomes of upgradable space.

If people who enjoy empire want to complain about something - this is what they should be complaining about.


EDIT : Not that they should be complaining about this either, but you know what I mean.

[Reg]

11% tax is 'torturing carebears'? Ok....

As I said. It's not a big deal. I doubt many people will quit over it. But it's just another in the endless string of nerfs to empire.  And does nothing to solve their real problem.

Remember that only bounties and mission rewards are taxed. Mission bonuses are tax free as are market transactions. High sec miners won't notice, high sec industrialists won't notice, only the guys who are running back to back level 4s will see any impact from this and frankly those guys should be exposed to more risk.

An 11 percent tax is "risk?"  In the first part of the paragraph you tell me how minor and unimportant the tax is but then at the end you define it as risk? Please. It's a stupid change that won't do a damned thing.

For full disclosure I have an Empire industrialist alt in an NPC corp parked in high sec churning out t2 items for sale to mission runners. My main has spent most of her career to date chaining level 4s in high sec so I'm fully aware of the situation faced by the average Empire dweller even if now I'm one of the evil 0.0 denizens trying to impose my playstyle on you or something.

I don't think that. I just think that you're yet another 0.0 player who can't actually make a living in 0.0.  Don't you think that problem is a little more pressing than whether people are staying in NPC corps?

[IainC]

Remember that only bounties and mission rewards are taxed. Mission bonuses are tax free as are market transactions. High sec miners won't notice, high sec industrialists won't notice, only the guys who are running back to back level 4s will see any impact from this and frankly those guys should be exposed to more risk.

An 11 percent tax is "risk?"  In the first part of the paragraph you tell me how minor and unimportant the tax is but then at the end you define it as risk? Please. It's a stupid change that won't do a damned thing.

For full disclosure I have an Empire industrialist alt in an NPC corp parked in high sec churning out t2 items for sale to mission runners. My main has spent most of her career to date chaining level 4s in high sec so I'm fully aware of the situation faced by the average Empire dweller even if now I'm one of the evil 0.0 denizens trying to impose my playstyle on you or something.

I don't think that. I just think that you're yet another 0.0 player who can't actually make a living in 0.0.  Don't you think that problem is a little more pressing than whether people are staying in NPC corps?
[/quote]

For clarity the 11% tax isn't a risk, I was referring to the incentive to move out of an NPC corp and into player run corps. That's the 'exposure to risk' I was talking about. 11% tax is minor and unimportant unless a significant part of your income is from bounties and mission rewards.

For the record, I can make money in 0.0, but I was making a lot more when I was doing level 4s in Empire, I was also spending money a whole lot slower then too.

You're arguing the wrong point. I don't care if people stay in NPC corps although I do think that the game design should encourage them not to. I don't care if people want to run L4s all day or mine in high sec or spin ships in Jita or whatever. It's not about making people play in a particular way or not it's about equalising the rewards to be commensurate with the risk. Level 4s are horribly unbalanced at the moment and anything that either reduces the reward from them or exposes the pilots to additional personal risk is a good thing.

[eldaec]

Most 0.0 players I know have an alt in Empire supporting them. Based on that, it seems to me that the real problem is lack of isk making opportunities in 0.0 not that living in Empire pays too well.

I was under the impression that sov was a license to print money? Or is that only a few alliances?

High end moons are a licence to print money, but they require capital to set up and run, and you need to find one that isn't claimed - which is practically impossible. The only chance you get is if can buy one (in which case you are already rich enough not to need one) or if your alliance invades somewhere and you are first to plant the flag; all this assumes your alliance hasn't nationalised the high end moons to pay for starbases/stations/jammers/jump-bridges, as well as the two dozen types of fuel needed to run them, and to pay for endless stream of ships needed to defend the space from crazy Russians.

Individual level income in 0.0 can be a problem, there are certainly opportunities for individuals to make money in 0.0, but they often require capital and a bit of luck. There is nothing as straight forward as L4 missions are in empire.

Basically, as a single player without independent wealth, assuming you have some good space, you can rat or you can mine. Doing that you'll make almost as much money as L4 missions, but unlike missions, you can occasionally lose your ship in the process.

As in Empire, to make real money you have to move from labour based income (ratting, belt mining), to investment based income (trading, moon mining), or income that requires coordination between groups (plexing, wormholes).

[Endie]

Anyone who has done recruiting for a GIA front in empire knows that the number of people in empire actually active beyond a few weeks who have not joined a player corp is minimal.  The numbers in NPC corps look impressive but every abandoned trial account is in there, every 0.0 Jita alt, and a large number of the haulers, afk miners and industrialists who never get taxed beyond (non-corp-tax affected) market transactions. 

What's more, this is probably as much a "nerf" (anything this easily avoidable is hardly a nerf: either train a 20-minute skillset or stop being an autistic shut-in and the problem is solved) to 0.0 players as anything else, since lots of us use L4s to make cash on occasion.  It won't affect anyone with any gumption negatively (it will make some tax-farming corp owners very rich, though).

[eldaec]

And to add to that, I really wonder how many people in NPC corps would have even noticed this change if ccp hadn't announced it.

[Reg]

Since it's hardly going to affect anyone, and we don't like the kind of people it affects anyway, and they won't even notice then why bother with it at all?

Oh well, if this doesn't do the trick and convince everyone in Empire to move out to 0.0 and play the game properly they can always reduce mission rewards again.  It's certain to work this time.

[IainC]

Since it's hardly going to affect anyone, and we don't like the kind of people it affects anyway, and they won't even notice then why bother with it at all?

Oh well, if this doesn't do the trick and convince everyone in Empire to move out to 0.0 and play the game properly they can always reduce mission rewards again.  It's certain to work this time.

You're editorialising. Badly. That's not the argument at all and I can only assume that you're misrepresenting it deliberately by now as it's been explained to you several times.

[Reg]

Yes, you keep explaining how your support for CCP's attempts to force people to play the game the way you play the game aren't actually attempts to force people to play the game exactly like you play the game.

Clearly what seems to CCP sneaking in yet another nerf to mission rewards in Empire isn't in any way designed to force people into line with their vision of how the game should be played.  It's designed to be FUN FUN FUN.  It's all clear to me now. How could I have been so wrong?

[Endie]

Nobody is being forced to play the game in any way.  Nothing is being removed, banned or stopped.  Nothing is precluded.  Nothing is unavoidable.  Nothing is blocked, suspended or made unreachable nor obfuscated, hidden from use or otherwise made inaccessible.

People who don't want to join a player corp or make their own (which costs what, 10,000 ISK and an alt slot every time they want to do so?) will pay 11% for their laziness.  It's a tax on those who are both lazy and vehemently anti-social.  The barricades will not be well-manned, because those (mildly) harmed won't be bothered to turn up, and won't have anyone to tell them where or when the revolution is occurring.