winter patch: Dominion

[Pennilenko]

Im pretty excited to see how the changes shake out. Im hoping for the best, but betting on a minor let down.

[Endie]

Gou didn't you read the bit where he said he was just explaining the philosophy behind the changes? You're on a board full of people who are interested in the design process. If you're looking for pure stat min-maxing enthusiasts then you've come to the wrong shop.

[Endie]

On another note, the one letdown for me is that they've made no suggestion that sov will be anything but easier to remove. That won't encourage more new players into 0.0 at all. It should be hard to hold much space and hard to lose your last space. We're (the existing 0.0 Great Powers) going to grief and harass regions into wildernesses, unless I'm reading things very badly.

[DayDream]

But would wilderness 0.0 be easier for fresh players from empire to settle?  Or harder?

[Endie]

No, by wilderness I mean that actually living there is a pointless ritual of repping everything you own every day and never securely holding your outposts.

[Skullface]

No, by wilderness I mean that actually living there is a pointless ritual of repping everything you own every day and never securely holding your outposts.

Are you anticipating more pet/renter alliances, then? Some sort of nullsec protection racket?

Like I said earlier, I'm still new-ish to EVE, but I doubt anyone will let huge swaths of 0.0 sit unused.

[Amarr HM]

that was a hugely useless blog that contained no real information that we didn't already know without giving us anything of substance to determine whether or not the actual system will work.

If that was in some form a response to my previous post being amazing doesn't make something more or less useless. I liked that they clearly stated they are going to and had to build it from the ground up in order to create a new vision. That for me was breaking news and I'm glad they aren't paving over the current bloated mechanics.

[lac]

I'm glad they aren't paving over the current bloated mechanics.

Amen to that.

[UnsGub]

that was a hugely useless blog that contained no real information that we didn't already know without giving us anything of substance to determine whether or not the actual system will work.

A good problem description is required to have a good solution.  The more unkown a problem is the more unknowns are in the solution to it.

[Endie]

No, by wilderness I mean that actually living there is a pointless ritual of repping everything you own every day and never securely holding your outposts.

Are you anticipating more pet/renter alliances, then? Some sort of nullsec protection racket?

Like I said earlier, I'm still new-ish to EVE, but I doubt anyone will let huge swaths of 0.0 sit unused.

Most of 0.0 is left unused right now.  It's just simple to claim sov in lots of it nonetheless.

[Simond]

I'm still going with "CCP screws this up horrendously", incidentally.  Good intentions or no, there's just too many ways that they could utterly fuck up the balancing...especially as it goes live in, what, two months? Three?

[Teleku]

I just hope they tie-in improvements to space heavily with outposts, so that overnight Providence will become the most valuable space in the galaxy.   

[Skullface]

Most of 0.0 is left unused right now.

Touchè.

[Pezzle]

The blog is interesting in a general way.  Yes, sov has needed a rebuild for years, so have many other components.  Standing and corp management being two key aspects that are made more complex when you control space.  Changing the way sov works without fixing management will only lead to more issues.  The changes could screw over any 0.0 groups.  

Upkeep costs for gates is fine(no fucking fuel!).  The system should have moved off gates and moons onto planets.  Oh well.  I can see the costs increasing as your alliance takes more systems.  Hopefully it scales based on true sec and other factors.  Done well, regions get some sort of static bonus which is highly varied from region to region.  This bonus could be subject to change, though player influence on that should be very limited.  Systems and constellations should have tiers of bonuses.  General for everyone, some based on standings of the space holders and some for Alliance members only.  The longer you hold a space the better your options should get.  Options outside of outposts should not be permanent upgrades.  They can be changed by owners and are lost when systems and constellations change hands.  I can see improved numbers of belts.  It would be pretty kick ass if owners can make more belts/whatever visible for themselves and still available for others to locate the hard way, changing every boot naturally.

How will Jammers work?  If they intend to put key installations on outposts we need automated defenses (something I am against, generally).  If sov levels are going is the sov 4 bonus a thing of the past?  The threat of ping pong and undefendable space is pretty damn high with what little we know.  Will this open up the door for new 0.0 powers?  I tend to doubt it unless the costs for systems are pretty staggering.  

[Nerf]

I've always wanted to be able to turn off a gate into a constellation so the only way in/out is jumpbridges/cynos.  I don't like paying attention while I jew.

[Endie]

The latest dev blog is up.  It's capital changes this time.  http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=696

Personally, I am more impressed that assault frigates are about to get a 15%/level boost in MWD speed on Sisi, but for those of us who have crappy caps hanging about, too:

tl;dr, carriers still nerfed from before, other than a change to triage.  Moroses get nerfed.  Motherships are now "supercarriers" with fighter-bombers but carriers will end up getting those too, eventually.  Titans to get a HP boost and the doomsday replaced by the first in a line of specialised weapons.  Though I bet that anyone who brings either supercap class on-grid with a dread fleet will still lose it.

If I have an unstoppable super weapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve." - Evil Overlord Rule #40

It began over four years ago with the Dreadnaughts; massive engines of destruction designed to engage the starbases released in the Exodus expansion and the Outposts of Cold War.  Then came Red Moon Rising and the advent of Carriers, Motherships and Titans.

When capital ships were first introduced, the Alliances of EVE were just beginning to expand into nullsec.  The sight of more than a few capital ships in one place was a newsworthy event.  The first Motherships were near-mythical beasts, used by ruthless pirate corporations and powerful PvP alliances, able to stand against and destroy entire fleets nearly single handedly.  The mere suspicion of an alliance even building a Titan was enough to spawn epic battles and wars whose legends live on to this day.

How times change!

Over the last couple of years, both the size of capital fleets and the use of capital warships has grown at an exponential rate. "Hot Dropping" has shifted from being something done to decide the fate of a war to becoming a blood sport that major alliances play with each other, with dozens of capital wrecks littering the battlefield after such engagements.  Factional Warfare even sees regular use of Carriers and Dreadnaughts.

With the current number of active capital ships on Tranquility, they can no longer be looked upon as tools of the elite.  This evolution of warfare has made it apparent that capital engagements are not some random occurrence anymore but simply another level of combat in EVE.  Some of these ships have withstood the test of time better than others.  So, now we're going to walk through the various classes of PvP capital ships and explain how we see them fitting into Dominion and beyond.  Traditionally, we would start from the bottom and go up, but I'm not traditional.

Titans

The most dramatic change to Titans will be the removal of the current area of effect, grid smashing, lag generating, fun killing, fleet destroying super weapon.  It's gone, folks!  In its place will be the first of what we hope to be a new line of mutually exclusive super weapons, usable only by Titans. The first of these will debut in Dominion and will keep the names of their grid-wide predecessors but will now focus their destructive energies upon single targets.  (Insert Admiral Ackbar quotes as you please!)

To illustrate what we are talking about here, let me share the early concept art for the new Amarr super weapon:



There is nothing fancy about this. You will have to warp your titan on grid and actually target an enemy ship to ruin his day.  You won't be killing other supercapitals in one shot, but very little else is going to survive.  The weapon has drawbacks that are designed to prevent the Doomsday drive-bys of the present, but you'll find a couple more changes which might encourage you to stick around a bit longer than before.

First up is that the current weapon bonuses on Titans will get just a tiny bit of an enhancement so that the turret locators actually might get used. This damage will vary with fittings, just as with any other ship, but will certainly enable a Titan to make its presence felt if the pilot so chooses.

Second, to ensure that you don't instantly melt and can survive more than a minute on the modern EVE capital battlefield, we will be giving Titans a respectable hit point increase.  This will not render Titans invulnerable to assault, but it should allow allied forces time to properly assist them after someone says, "Hey, watch this!" on voice comms and gets in trouble.

The future of this ship class is not set in stone and as EVE continues to evolve they may find even more roles to play.  For now, we consider these changes to be a step forward in bringing Titans closer to being an actual ship instead of the giant nano-smart bombs they have become.  However, Titans won't be alone in dealing with the capital fleets of EVE...

Motherships no more...

Perhaps no ships in EVE symbolize the majesty of the game more than the Nyx, Wyvern, Aeon and Hel.  Featured in dozens of player-made movies, official trailers and screenshots, it is a sad testimony that their presence has not been a factor on the capital battlefields of EVE for quite some time.  The simple fact is that this class of ship now stays mostly parked on trained alts and is rarely used as they are nothing more than expensive targets for hungry legions of Dread pilots.

No more.

Motherships are being reclassified as Supercarriers. The name of ‘Mothership' has long caused confusion as to what the intended role of these ships was supposed to be but we are finally putting that to rest.  This refocusing will see these ships go through a few changes.  Gone will be:

·         The ability for Supercarriers to fit Triage modules.

·         The ability for Supercarriers to fit Clone Vat Bays.

·         The ability for Supercarriers to fit one additional Warfare Link per level.

One side effect of this change is that the build cost for Supercarriers will go down slightly as they will no longer require the Capital Clone Vat Bay components.

What are they getting? In addition to receiving their own hit point boost, Supercarriers are going to get new teeth in the form of the deadly new Fighter Bombers they can launch.  Fighter Bombers have exactly one purpose: to destroy capital ships and look very cool while doing so.  Here is the Gallente version:





Fighter Bombers will be unique to the Supercarrier class, launching specialized torpedoes capable of inflicting immense damage against other capital ships. We are still looking at a few other ideas that will help Supercarriers do their jobs more effectively and you may see those popping up on SiSi in the coming weeks.

One more thing - the Hel is getting rid of its current repair bonuses and trading them in for bonuses that enhance the endurance of its Fighters and Fighter Bombers.  I guess the Flight Deck Chiefs on Hels like duct taping spare bits of armor onto their strike craft or something...

Carriers

While we are still looking for possible ways to tweak them, Carriers as a class will remain unchanged in Dominion.  We have however reduced both the duration and fuel consumption of the Triage module by half in order to allow a bit more tactical flexibility in their usage.

Dreadnaughts

The heavy hitters of New Eden will continue in their role as the primary anti-structure and anti-capital ship in EVE.  Since my blog last week, many have expressed worry that their beloved Dreads would have a reduced purpose in Dominion.  This is not true.  If anything, Dreads will be used more than ever against not only each other, but new challenges which will require the mentality to "Siege green!"

Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.

‘Bays' Again

We are also working hard to bring the next iteration of our ‘bay' concept into Dominion in the form of Fighter / Fighter Bomber bays for Carriers and Supercarriers.  This will allow you to better organize and separate your primary strike craft from your regular drones.  In addition to allowing us to better balance the numbers of drones that these classes of ships carry around with them, we are also doing this for performance reasons.  The server does not like it when Supercarriers have 1500 spare Hobgoblin II's in their drone bays and making the server happy is always a good thing.

Will there ever be more capital ships?

Not in Dominion.  The biggest issues with creating new capital ships involve both finding a defined role for them to fill and then devoting the considerable art and design resources needed to bring such massive ships to life.  As EVE continues to evolve, we will be on the lookout for ways to possibly expand the capital ship lineup.  After all, something has to wear the tag of Mothership again at some point!

To close, please be aware that we are planning some special events on SiSi in the near future to live test all of this stuff, so be on the lookout for announcements in the Test Server Feedback forum!

I've always wanted to be able to turn off a gate into a constellation so the only way in/out is jumpbridges/cynos.  I don't like paying attention while I jew.

They won't do this.  A lot of people have been saying "hey just don't pay upkeep on 49- so the gate turns off!"  The dev guy never said the gates wouldn't work if you didn't pay your sov charges, just that they'd not grant you sov.

[Gets]

Titan weapon change is whatever since who will miss getting DD'd. Fighterbombers MS only, which is acceptable as a new feature. Triage time/consumption halved. No one used triage modules on Motherships anyway, but I guess they're removing them since the additional health bonus will imbalance them. 2km/s Jaguar woot training dat shiat nao well maybe not. Moros only getting it's drone bonus when in triage aka "My plexing Moros backbone!"

If you read the comments thread on eve-o, some Atlas member asked "Will this expansion be a nerf for all alliances that live in deep space?" and the dev replied "To be very blunt and straightforward about this, yes, we are deliberately making your life more difficult in this patch." 

Also hiding my favorite EvE meme into that devblog almost makes up for that officer spawn I didn't get when the server caught on fire. Almost.

[sanctuary]

CCP Abathur is Seleene (former CEO of BDCI and leader of MC) c/d?

[eldaec]

This is going to decimate PL's k/d ratio backbone vs Goons.

[Meester]

Entity will go spare when I let him know there's one in-game. I might record myself self-destructing it just to taunt him.

Just mention that he will never get his hands on a Gold Magnate (Ever!) and therefore his quest has already failed.

(the very first Dread was built by one of the factions in the Stain Civil War, it was ambushed and destroyed by the other faction while being hopped from low-sec to Stain). 
--Dave

If I recall correctly the first dread was destroyed by NBSI Alliance and the owner was Veritas Immortalis. It was a Moros, but don't ask me if they were involved in the Stain Civil War. The memories...

Oh and to keep vaguely on topic, the new gallente fighter-bomber looks nice.

[Gets]

So some of this stuff has hit Singularity and the expected hilarity is being reported. Not yet logged into Sisi myself though.

New sov something like this?



If this is going to actually work remains to be seen. Remember the idea is to have more wulfpax and 20-40 man fleets, but with the current Titans being equal to mobile death stars, one-shotting anything including the new claim disrutpors and dreads dieing to 5 volleys from a fighterbomber on Sisi it's still unclear as to wtf. Even if you don't take the concept literally it still seems arbitrarily dumb.

Fleet finder:



Dope.

[eldaec]

That seems to suggest that to remove sov you need control of a system for 12 continuous hours, then a further 24 hours to claim it.

1) Seems way too fast.

2) Seems vulnerable to timezone warfare.

3) 36 hour long ops to take a system - not likely.

4) Except for reducing the number of towers involved, and eliminating the 'reinforced' mechanic this is an awful lot like current sov warfare.

I'm thinking there must be more to it.

[Skullface]

If this is going to actually work remains to be seen. Remember the idea is to have more wulfpax and 20-40 man fleets, but with the current Titans being equal to mobile death stars, one-shotting anything including the new claim disrutpors and dreads dieing to 5 volleys from a fighterbomber on Sisi it's still unclear as to wtf. Even if you don't take the concept literally it still seems arbitrarily dumb.

Five volleys? So thats what they meant by "Destroyers are still going to have things to do."

[Gets]

I might want to eat my previous words. I actually did some thinking now and this could work even with the big timezone issue. If the systems you can "disrupt" and turn neutral are only the border-systems, then that would make inter-region systems more viable as actual frontline PvP areas, since you can expect a fight there since having a defense fleet on standby has high priority. Furthermore, it really puts real emphasis on who you're neighbours are, as industrial entities would prefer military ones as their buffer between hostiles. And if getting deep into enemy territory is harder using the conventional way, then black-ops tactics will finally have their intended role.

Less time flying looking for a fight. more action on demand. Mostly the things we've seen getting pushed through since the first CSM, except we've been vegetated by POS shot for too long to look at it in the right way. Now if only the dev with the huge boner for capital fights won't get the opportunity to mess it up.

edit: Granted if you can only wedge your fresh alliance between Empire and nullsec or the angry defense fleets of two adjacent powerhouses you won't see much new groups claiming space, but things should get a lot different and hectically diverse with this mechanic, with a lot more opportunities than there are now.

Here's the "TCU" on Sisi. Alliance tourney fans will recognize the sign

[Goumindong]

Ah ha ha ha ha. This was dumb when CCP first floated it a fucking year ago. Will they never learn?

[patience]

seems like they're incentivizing having numbers and having a  lot of carebears in your alliance over being purely pvp based and milking moongold, which'll suit goonswarm fine. alliances with small numbers that are more into pvp will have to get ratters and miners to come down from empire, which could be a problem because there's really no incentive to come down to 0.0 when you can make comparable money with a lot less risk by sitting in empire. they're trying to get more people into 0.0 but this'll only work if they buff 0.0 isk generation by a lot.

It's not all about the isk. I bet a huge portion of empire and 0.0 players look at the other side as trash.

[Fordel]

It's more like the 0.0 look at the empire players as trash, and the empire players just wish the 0.0 players would leave them the fuck alone to rat/mine/mission.

[IainC]

It's more like the 0.0 look at the empire players as trash, and the empire players just wish the 0.0 players would leave them the fuck alone to rat/mine/mission.

Goon jihads aside, most 0.0 players do leave Empire players alone. Most Empire piracy, ninja looting, suicide ganking etc comes from players and corps who reside entirely in Empire and don't have a 0.0 presence to speak of.

There may be some bleed over in lowsec systems close to 0.0 borders but most 0.0 powers don't care much about what goes on in high-sec.

[Fordel]

There's always some crusade to nerf/remove <carebear empire stuff> because it somehow devalues the 0.0 players.


I should also say most empire players make little to no distinction between 0.0 players and low-sec players. There all just lumped into the category of "people I need to watch/avoid/defend myself from, or they'll kill me and take all my shit."

[IainC]

There's always some crusade to nerf/remove <carebear empire stuff> because it somehow devalues the 0.0 players.

L4 missions are out of whack when compared to pretty much any other economic activity in the game. They provide better minerals than mining and more reliable isk than ratting for much lower risk and with less competition (multiple mission runners in the same system don't impact on each other's activities whereas ratting income decreases with the number of other pilots in the system).

[Endie]

Ah ha ha ha ha. This was dumb when CCP first floated it a fucking year ago. Will they never learn?

Post contains too much content.  Consider breaking it up, next time, into two or more posts of more easily digestible size.

Care to share just what makes you so sceptical?

[Amarr HM]

From what I am gathering the sov claim disruptor translates as a twelve hour gate camp by the attackers. Defenders just need to blob the gate take down the disruptors or the camp to stabilize system or lose sov. Then attackers need to protect claim marker for 24 hours to claim sov what it basically translates as is a more constant fight based on a singularity rather than multiple sov markers (poses). So by definition it's quite similar to old system but way less grind, no repping/taking down POS mods. The grind will be in the constant camping/PvP required to protect the markers/disruptors over a 36+ hour period to flip sov.

[IainC]

it also means that small alliances that don't have numbers online at all times will find it much harder to take sov even from other small alliances.

[Amarr HM]

In a sense yes it hugely favours the defenders as all they have to do is muster during the 12 hour period and then choose a time to attempt to clear the field. Attackers have to constantly protect the disruptors for the twelve hour period being aware defenders may strike at any given time. So really it will come down to who wants the system more and who can field the most ships, I envision it could churn out some epic battles. If multiple markers are attacked it would be easy for a smaller alliance to steal sov in an unwanted system while the large alliance is concentrating on it's main systems.

[Endie]

From my gf post:

Also, what the fuck is it with people panicking about losing sov in 12 hours. You need to shoot something with the EHPs of a couple of (very) well-tanked rokhs at some point during a twelve hour window. If we at our size can't get together a mid-sized gang then hurf blurf we don't deserve space.

Sure, the hostiles might sit there with it pre-locked with carriers ready to rep. Maybe even so many that a few blackbirds can't fuck that up. Hands up all the capital pilots who want to sit there for twelve hours straight on a gate, by definition in an unjammed system, while your opponents just need to scrape together the dreads to hot-drop you for a few minutes of that period and you're down a capfleet. Often, whether to do a second ten-minute cycle of siegeing is enough to have an FC worrying about getting hot-dropped, let alone 720 minutes.

tl;dr I like the changes but it's going to be hard to take many systems, especially if you cannot spam disruptors beyond five or so.