CCP Shanghai making console FPS aka EvE 360 - via Kotaku

[gryeyes]

The problems with that post are only vaguely related to it being a strawman.

[eldaec]

Please stop with the "this is the end of the universe liquidate your ISK while you still have time" blurf.  

Come on, nobody is even going there.

The problem people are pointing out is this being a wasted opportunity and an unnecessary distraction which (if console exclusive) is likely to irritate the existing player base for no good reason.



You can do better than this BS.

[Amarr HM]

Surely you mean "grammatically correct." You can't have something just be grammatical. It's either correct or incorrect. Thanks for the compliment though, I never considered myself a great poster.

Wrong on both counts, grammatical is perfectly fine when used as an adjective & I always thought you were a pretty good poster too.

[Ookii]

It's not possible to win an argument with schild, especially if you're right.

I'm surprised people still don't realize this.

[Amarr HM]

A lot of the other stuff he said made sense to me & I know little enough about Shanghai computer game publishers to differ vOv

[Falwell]

Fanfest in four weeks. Either we'll have the announcement of a PC version, or a real life Atlantis. Both prospects promise fun.

[Endie]

Please stop with the "this is the end of the universe liquidate your ISK while you still have time" blurf.  

Come on, nobody is even going there.

Read this thread.  Read Gryeyes' posts, which sound like those of RandomList on Kugut.

And that alleged strawman was just paraphrasing the first two lines of the preceding Gryeyes post.  Developing a PC-only RTS of Call of Duty, for instance, while dumb (because the big money is in console games if you must be exclusive) does not "alienate" 360 users.  If he just doesn't understand "alienate" and meant "exclude" then that's cool.  But "alienate"?  Nah, that's what I'm happy to mock.

[schild]

It's not possible to win an argument with schild, especially if you're right.

I'm surprised people still don't realize this.

Congratulations on finding the MMORPG forum, now get the fuck out.

[gryeyes]

Read this thread.  Read Gryeyes' posts, which sound like those of RandomList on Kugut.

And that alleged strawman was just paraphrasing the first two lines of the preceding Gryeyes post.  Developing a PC-only RTS of Call of Duty, for instance, while dumb (because the big money is in console games if you must be exclusive) does not "alienate" 360 users.  If he just doesn't understand "alienate" and meant "exclude" then that's cool.  But "alienate"?  Nah, that's what I'm happy to mock.

Yes moron, releasing a console exclusive expansion to a PC based niche MMO, that still meaningfully interacts with its parent product, is relevant to your CoH example.  You asked for "substantiation" and i have provided it, yet you continue to string together non sequitur/strawman bullshit in a failing attempt to "defend" something. Its not working out so well, you should probably stop trying.

[Endie]

I wish I could say I was intentionally trolling you because even a skim read (all I can be bothered with to be honest) reveals some pretty spit-flecked-neckbeard posting there, ol' gyreyes.

[Typhon]

I agree with Endie, releaseing (initially) only for consoles is smart, regardless of whether it alienates the userbase. 

1) If the EVE userbase wanted to be playing an FPS, they wouldn't be playing EVE
2) If you release an expansion that takes people away from the game they are already enjoying, you are shooting yourself in the foot by dividing your playerbase. (e.g. DAOC with ToA expansion, Star Wars with NGE).  So, yes, not releasing this for PC/current EVE players is smart because it doesn't fuck up their current game - whether or not they are smart enough to realize that is beside the point.
3) As mentioned, the console market is huge.  If you're going to try to expand your repetoire and cilentele, why would you choose to expand in an area that has already proven mulitple times to have failed (e.g. Planetside)

Linking it to the EVE universe is risky, mostly for DUST.  But it does add an element that no other pay-per-play FPS game has offered - battles matter.

[tazelbain]

As things stand, I am inclined to believe that it will make more sense once we get all the details.  Right now it looks like a huge mistake.

[gryeyes]

I wish I could say I was intentionally trolling

I wish you were intentionally trolling also, at least there would be some justification for half the nonsense you have posted in this thread.

[Amarr HM]

What's wrong with you, why do you turn every little verbal spat into an angry little neckbearding fuckfest?

The most nonsensical thing I can think of here is arguing vehemently about a game we know nothing of.

To add to that you quite obviously know fuckall about Eve otherwise you'd realise a large proportion of the playerbase couldn't give two fucks about sovereignty. The ones that do care likely either already own or will buy an x-box/PS3 for this. The ones that care but don't make the purchase might even enjoy the fact that the fucked up sov system has been improved in a positive way.

[UnSub]

If CCP had announced a PC RTS / FPS that directly impacted on EvE, there would still be complaints because EvE isn't an FPS / RTS game and doesn't attract (in the main) those kind of players. But where else does EvE go? It's already one big universe so making it bigger isn't really worth spending the time on.

Going to consoles is potentially a good move. There will be EvE players who have consoles so there will be some cross-over. It opens the door to a new potential audience. But yeah, it's CCP, who tend to do the right thing ... eventually. And a CCP offshoot at that.

[DLRiley]

Unlike MMo's Console games have to be good on their own merit. I expect this to end in tears.

[tmp]

A random thought re: the "can't have PC people play console FPS, unfair input advantage zomg" ... wouldn't limiting both console and PC version just to gamepad control address at least large chunk of that?

I mean, it's not ideal from the viewpoint of a strict PC junkie, but it does somewhat equalize the field and the cost of controller is way less than cost of whole another gaming platform...

[gryeyes]

To add to that you quite obviously know fuckall about Eve otherwise you'd realise a large proportion of the playerbase couldn't give two fucks about sovereignty. The ones that do care likely either already own or will buy an x-box/PS3 for this. The ones that care but don't make the purchase might even enjoy the fact that the fucked up sov system has been improved in a positive way.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean!?!?

Ignoring the fact im not the one insistent on making the debate hyper personal because I dont like my cockfaggery being called out.

If CCP had announced a PC RTS / FPS that directly impacted on EvE, there would still be complaints because EvE isn't an FPS / RTS game and doesn't attract (in the main) those kind of players. But where else does EvE go?

A vast majority of the negative reaction that i have seen has been about the console exclusivity (something i doubt) and its interaction with EVE. Remove either one of those factors and the whining is reduced to being unable to play the game. Certainly everyone Ive noticed bitching in this thread wouldn't be, or at least not nearly as much. The picture so far painted makes no sense, hopefully that will change.

If CCP really must expand the EVE franchise how about starting with a console FPS, without all the additional nonsensical baggage (MMO/RTS cross platform blah blah stupid). Sure people will be pissy that they wont have access to the game. But its not nearly as stupid as releasing an expansion to a MMO that is not available to the native platform/fanbase. Im still amazed people are trying to spin that as anything but a disastrous choice.

[Falwell]

Question as, again, I'm so out of the know on consoles it's ridiculous.

Is it technically feasible to force a PC app to only allow, say, an Xbox 360 controller for certain inputs (which TMP brought up?) Could they set it up so that the keyboard would be used only for chat, menus etc? If so, how secure would that be? Secure as in, could it be easily circumvented through cheats etc?

EDIT: The more I think about this, the more this becomes a serious possibility (assuming it's technically achievable.) Console guys have to buy the boxed game and of course already have the controller. PC guys are forced to buy a controller, but CCP gives them the software as a free update to offset the cost and maintain their motto of "no paid expansions."

It creates a level playing field, the barrier of entry for the PC player is minimal, and there becomes no need to address the control difference problem between platforms as there won't be one whatsoever.

EDIT 2: Fuck, they don't even have to allow keyboards when using the Dust client. They integrate Eve voice to the PC Dust client and add the normal quick group commands found in most FPS games today.

[eldaec]

But is that really any better than the shadowrun solution?

Also if they allow a keyboard for chat, you're forcing the console players to have a keyboard anyway, so you might as well allow normal FPS style keyboard/mouse control on both platforms and then everyone is happy.

[Falwell]

But is that really any better than the shadowrun solution?

Also if they allow a keyboard for chat, you're forcing the console players to have a keyboard anyway, so you might as well allow normal FPS style keyboard/mouse control on both platforms and then everyone is happy.

It is simply because you take all inequity of the control scheme out of the equation. Perceived, real, or otherwise. In effect, CCP could just turn your PC into a console simply by making the Dust client only accept commands from an Xbox controller or whatnot.

[Endie]

Just about everyone (obvious splenetic exception aside) here actually seems to be of the opinion that it's theoretically a good thing that they're experimenting, but everything will rest upon how well it is implemented and whether it is a good game, and that if it is a bad game or the link to Eve is badly implemented then it will suffer.  Kinda a truism, but given how little we know at the moment, that is pretty much all we can say.

Falwell: I suppose that the problems would be that (a) the joy of PCs is that you can work around anything.  The driver would probably be hacked around on launch day; and (b) that being seen as deliberately crippling PC users would probably cut sales on the platform, without making it cheaper to develop for.

[eldaec]

But is that really any better than the shadowrun solution?

Also if they allow a keyboard for chat, you're forcing the console players to have a keyboard anyway, so you might as well allow normal FPS style keyboard/mouse control on both platforms and then everyone is happy.

It is simply because you take all inequity of the control scheme out of the equation. Perceived, real, or otherwise. In effect, CCP could just turn your PC into a console simply by making the Dust client only accept commands from an Xbox controller or whatnot.

In Shadowrun the problem wasn't so much that the control system was perceived to be unfair, just simply that the control system sucked monkey balls, and controllers will always have the same issue in FPS games.

Even if the all-controllers approach could be improved by PC players using hacks to emulate a controller from a mouse, you would only be able to emulate within the limits of what a controller can make your guy do in game, so it would have the same treacle-control problems that shadowrun had.

[Falwell]

Falwell: I suppose that the problems would be that (a) the joy of PCs is that you can work around anything.  The driver would probably be hacked around on launch day; and (b) that being seen as deliberately crippling PC users would probably cut sales on the platform, without making it cheaper to develop for.

On the first point, that's going to happen no matter what control scheme they come up with for a PC client but, of course, that's correct. The second MUST happen for a PC client to become a reality. Period. It's a sacrifice that PC players WILL make in some form if they want a PC version. There really is no way around it. So, the options are either come up with a brand new control scheme from scratch or, use one that has been established for decades in the gaming industry that is familiar to ALL gamers, not just console guys.

[Amarr HM]

What the fuck is that supposed to mean!?!?

Ignoring the fact im not the one insistent on making the debate hyper personal because I dont like my cockfaggery being called out.

It means you're an idiot and also completely wrong about anyone feeling alienated by this game cause only like 5% of the Eve player base care vehemently about sov to ragequit over this. One of those elite hardcore geopolitical strategists is disagreeing with you right here itt.

[gryeyes]

I am in fact a mouth breathing retard.

You don't have to beat around the bush about it, just spit it out next time. I cant even think of a possible scenario that has the potential to alienate their core base. EXPANSION TO NICHE MMO THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE IN ITS NATIVE FORMAT.


DAT 5% CAREZ BOUTS DIZ STUFF DIS GUY INE OF DEMZ! 

In Shadowrun the problem wasn't so much that the control system was perceived to be unfair

No it was extremely unfair even with the allowances given to the console users and the intentionally bad control scheme. The almost nonexistent PC playerbase made the issue moot in the train wreck that was SR. The lack of parity was almost instantly noticeable. Any task that involves moving a reticle will be faster and more accurate with a mouse, the only thing you can do to combat this is lessen the importance of accuracy and speed, which tends to suck. But once again "forced" controller for PC is veering into the "This idea is so fucking stupid that we must create slightly less stupid explanations".

I still place my vote with "PC version but the game has an absolutely minimal interaction with EVE".

[Amarr HM]

I am in fact a mouth breathing retard.

fify

Dust is a niche FPS shooter attached to an mmo at least get your facts straight on one thing.

[Amarr HM]

I still place my vote with "PC version but the game has an absolutely minimal interaction with EVE".

This is fucking obvious you idiot savant that's what I'm fucking saying to you hahahahaha, god you're so fucking dumb it's unbelievable.

[Amarr HM]

Even if he isn't listening it does seem to raise a good point here that noone has mentioned. Sov in Eve is currently controlled by a very small proportion of the playerbase & the way in which sov is controlled is extremely grindy and has been a major complaint for a long time, even the people who have mastered the art pretty much hate it at this stage.

The majority of the player base reside in hi sec/low sec space and have little or no interaction with 0.0 sovereignty & one of the major problems CCP had was convincing this glut of people to venture into 0.0. I think at one stage they did a datasearch and only 30% of the player base had even been to 0.0 and 10% seemed to permanently reside there. Proof of this was Factional warfare was introduced as an attempt at getting people to shift over. So even if Dust does effect sov in a massive way it's touching such a small proportion of the playerbase in a direct manner that it's unlikely to even make a noticeable dent in the playerbase if it's shit.

[IainC]

I think the number of people who care about sov is probably larger than the number of people directly affected by it. A lot of peeveepee corps aspire to 0.0 or may dabble with it on a casual basis as renters. I would also be prepared to bet that if the mechanism for invading and defending territory was more fun that more people would want to get involved. As it is, due to the POS mechanic, a lot of smaller corps can't realistically participate even if they'd like to.

[patience]

If CCP really must expand the EVE franchise how about starting with a console FPS, without all the additional nonsensical baggage (MMO/RTS cross platform blah blah stupid).

1. CCP can't make compelling storylines worth crap. They seemed to even imply it when asked if DUST will have singleplayer.

2. Knowing this CCP's other alternative is to make a very good multiplayer FPS with the possibility of making it highly moddable. Since they punted this job to Shanghai (let's face it the FPS that have come out of China have been weak) the chances of it being really good are questionable (gotten this rating for at least putting out a video that looked like something that blows away everything devs from that country produced.) and CCP probably isn't interested in spending the effort to give players mod control through a console.

3. So CCP is falling back on the one thing they are known for providing, drama. It's definitely a selling point that shouldn't be discounted.

[Amarr HM]

I think the number of people who care about sov is probably larger than the number of people directly affected by it.

I mean I don't know what gaming platform propaganda is considered to be, but that's apparently what won the great war. I would imagine the majority of the playerbase should feel more alienated by that considering half of them probably don't even use of forums (sensible bunch). I agree with your other points though smaller corps finding it harder and harder to get a look in, I can't see that changing a huge amount but this might spark more widespread interest in 0.0 if takes away a lot of the grind of maintaining sov.

[UnsGub]

I think the number of people who care about sov is probably larger than the number of people directly affected by it.

I though pretty much every player in Eve is effected by SOV.  Moon mining and SOV go hand in hand.  Moon resources ties directly into the T2 market and most players buy T2 items as soon as they can train to use them.  SOV conflicts direct effect mineral prices which in turn directly effect everyone playing.  Did trit loose 25% of it value due to end of the big war or loot drop changes?  I do not know but could believe it was the end of big war about SOV.

[IainC]

I though pretty much every player in Eve is effected by SOV.  Moon mining and SOV go hand in hand.  Moon resources ties directly into the T2 market and most players buy T2 items as soon as they can train to use them.  SOV conflicts direct effect mineral prices which in turn directly effect everyone playing.  Did trit loose 25% of it value due to end of the big war or loot drop changes?  I do not know but could believe it was the end of big war about SOV.

Trit dropped in price when CCP stopped seeding shuttles on NPC vendors.

Obviously sov has an effect on who owns moons and thus who's selling moon materials however your average Empire producer, much less your average Empire mission runner/low-sec pirate couldn't really care less who is selling that stuff as long as somebody is. I buy about 250 mill of moon materials every week and I don't care enough to check who's selling them to me or where they come from. The moon is going to get mined whether AAA, Goons, TRI or whoever own it and those materials will end up on the market regardless. Even if there's a really big war raging and more materials are being funnelled into war production within the alliance, there's enough volume from other areas to pick up the slack.

[Amarr HM]

I though pretty much every player in Eve is effected by SOV.  Moon mining and SOV go hand in hand.  Moon resources ties directly into the T2 market and most players buy T2 items as soon as they can train to use them.  SOV conflicts direct effect mineral prices which in turn directly effect everyone playing.  Did trit loose 25% of it value due to end of the big war or loot drop changes?  I do not know but could believe it was the end of big war about SOV.

You are completely correct in this, but slightly missing the point. As an isolated example the people fitting T2 items in Empire etc. couldn't care less who holds sov or how it is gained as long as they are getting their items at the right price. Sov is only a means to an end, it doesn't really matter who controls it except to the people who control it.