EQ 'Next'

[Rendakor]

We call them "raiders". 

  I'm a pretty serious WoW raider and I spend more time watching action bars, Omen, and DBM than cool spell effects. The only thing I really "watch" is fire, to prevent standing in it (although lately DBM has a warning for that too).

[Nebu]

I misstated myself with the "raders" comment.  

I too wish for games where I could watch the action rather than watching action bars, particularly if I'm forced to play the healer in the holy triad.  

I apologize.    

[Ingmar]

Some people equate "watching what's going on" with fun.

We call them "raiders". 

CoH proved why most people play MMO's.  It's for the phat lewtz.   Ultimately it doesn't matter how fun your combat is (see also AoC), if you don't have an elaborate loot treadmill your title will suffer. 

I don't think it was just the lack of loot, CoH was truly awful at disguising the grind and could really have benefited from more higher complexity PVE encounters that didn't take all day - task forces were cool but they took much too long. It was the lack of variety in combat that eventually killed it for me, since most of the time in game was spent fighting what essentially felt like reskinned copies of the same guys - for whatever reason, WoW mobs don't give me that feeling, maybe because they're just more polished. CoH could really have used some voice acting.

Even with those problems, it is probably my 2nd or 3rd most-played MMO behind WoW and maybe DAOC. Well, GW is up there too. But I really did like CoH for quite a while.

[eldaec]

I don't think it was just the lack of loot, CoH was truly awful at disguising the grind and could really have benefited from more higher complexity PVE encounters that didn't take all day

It did have them at lvl 45-50, and in some of the newer zones (striga espeicially) problem was 30-40 being pretty barren.

[Ingmar]

I don't think it was just the lack of loot, CoH was truly awful at disguising the grind and could really have benefited from more higher complexity PVE encounters that didn't take all day

It did have them at lvl 45-50, and in some of the newer zones (striga espeicially) problem was 30-40 being pretty barren.

I did get sidekicked through some of the archvillain fights at the higher levels, but it was kind of a too little too late sort of scenario. And yeah Striga was pretty cool. They needed some more stuff like that eariler in the game's life, awesome and accessible right out of the gates, kind of ilke Deadmines. I really think to this day it was my first trip to Deadmines that really hooked me on WoW. (You landlubbers are tougher than I thought!)

[Nebu]

Even with those problems, it is probably my 2nd or 3rd most-played MMO behind WoW and maybe DAOC. Well, GW is up there too. But I really did like CoH for quite a while.

We seem to have similar tastes in games.  

I just find myself wondering what the hook is with WoW.  DAoC kept me coming back because of the social aspects.  CoH hooked me with the character creator, travel powers, and the fast-paced combat.  I find myself returning to WoW often but a) I don't care for the art direction, b) I'm not enamored with any of the classes, and c) I don't have any friends playing the game at a high level.  Perhaps it's just the fact that I can log on for as little as 10 minutes and still get something somewhat meaningful accomplished.  That and it's always active with people...  

[Numtini]

Well, it's finally officially announced. Looks very early and pretty WoW-Like in graphics. Not a lot of details other than PVP at launch and fewer classes.

[Shatter]

Videos at work wont play for me so not sure they cover this but how does this game fit into the EQ genre?  Before EQ1?  After EQ2?  Something completely new?

[Numtini]

According to what I've read, it's a reboot of the franchise.

[Engels]

God, I hope they don't Wow it up artistically. That would not be a reboot, that would be the final coffin nail.

[Pennilenko]

God, I hope they don't Wow it up artistically. That would not be a reboot, that would be the final coffin nail.

Is there any doubt about what is going to happen?

[Engels]

Please note that I specifically said 'art', not gameplay. Clearly, Wow's gameplay is a success story that I can't blame any MMO company from trying to approximate.

The art direction on EQ1 and EQ2 managed to not go into cartoonsville. There were elements of the 'cute', be it the froglocks or the gnomes, but you didn't get 'groovy' zombies, kewpie doll gnomes or disney paladins.

Don't get me wrong, its probably a 'winning' formula, due to the infantilization of the populace at large when it comes to artwork. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

edit:spelling iz hoard.

[Sky]

Don't get me wrong, its probably a 'winning' formula, due to the infantilization of the populace at large when it comes to artwork. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

I agree, on more than just the art level, since I didn't care much for WoW but liked EQ2. But whatchagonnado? If you don't like WoW, forget playing mmo for the next ten+ years, pretty much. Unless someone embraces the niche, understands you won't get million+ subs and makes an mmo like they used to (which were profitable enough to kickstart the whole thing anyway). Not "like they used to" meaning draconian rulesets, but financially responsible. If someone likes WoW, they'll play WoW, if you can't win them over with a LotR license, pretty much nothing else has a chance.

Also, and more importantly from my viewpoint, Scott Hartsman is no longer with SOE. A new phoenix might arise from the ashes, but EQ2 without Scott isn't something I've played in over a year. The direction has gone in a very non-Sky way. I have more interest in that game I just heard about from his new studio, how the hell did I miss that thread? Blah, stupid mmo forum.

[ghost]

They seem to have all the pre-requisites- 

1.  Darkshire
2.  Goldshire
3.  Worgen


Should be awesome.

[Soln]

not a lot from those videos - I couldn't listen to it all.  Just saw the stills.  Was there any gameplay info?

[palmer_eldritch]

It doesn't look too cartoony to me, albeit based on just two screenshots, and one of them blurry. But it's an arty look, like the type of illustration you might find in a D&D manual, rather than the realistic look they went for with EQ2.

Personally I liked EQ2 as a game a lot more than WoW but I thought the graphics were horrible even at maximum settings. The characters looked like plastic. The new style appeals more.

[Xanthippe]

Even with those problems, it is probably my 2nd or 3rd most-played MMO behind WoW and maybe DAOC. Well, GW is up there too. But I really did like CoH for quite a while.

We seem to have similar tastes in games.  

I just find myself wondering what the hook is with WoW.  DAoC kept me coming back because of the social aspects.  CoH hooked me with the character creator, travel powers, and the fast-paced combat.  I find myself returning to WoW often but a) I don't care for the art direction, b) I'm not enamored with any of the classes, and c) I don't have any friends playing the game at a high level.  Perhaps it's just the fact that I can log on for as little as 10 minutes and still get something somewhat meaningful accomplished.  That and it's always active with people...  

DAOC for the social aspects?  Not the RvR?  I agree about CoH and WoW.  Those are my three favorites.

EQ seemed far too punishing for fun for me - at that time (pre-DAOC) I was playing text muds anyway.

I wish someone would make a DAOC (preToA) Next.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't think any of that was anything other than concept art, I would not base to much off that at this point.

[Nebu]

DAOC for the social aspects?  Not the RvR? 

Both really.  All of my gaming friends were the people I'd log on and RvR with.  When they all left DAoC, I realized that I had been playing for 5+ years just to chat with a group of people. 

I'd love for a new DAoC server/game to come out, but it just wouldn't be the same without the group of people I RvR'ed with for 5 years. 

[palmer_eldritch]

I don't think any of that was anything other than concept art, I would not base to much off that at this point.

At least one of them is a screenshot . . . actually it's "in game art" whatever that is. Either way you're probably right.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Massively's intro to the videos mentioned "There's also some information on what players can expect with regard to support for subscribers of EverQuest and EverQuest II once EverQuest Next comes out."  Did anybody catch what info that might be? 

Also, I sure wish someone would find the sweet spot between cartoony and realistic brown.  EQ had fantastic textures for the day, but they were limited by low poly counts.  EQ2 upped the poly count dramatically, but botched something with the textures or reflectivity such that everything looks like plastic.  You'd think raising the graphics settings would make it better, but no, the higher the setting the more like plastic shiny plastic everything gets!  Oh well, maybe EQ3 will be high-def cartoony, that sounds like something Smedley would go for.

[Kageru]

The EQ franchise is a marginal quality. Only a bunch of old veterans really remember EQ1 positively and EQ2 has actually poisoned the well for more than it added to the pool. They should just come up with a new fresh IP showing off the lessons they have learnt. But I guess only Blizzard has that sort of arrogance / confidence.

Then again SoE games seem to be designed primarily by marketing committees rather than game designers so I expect the result to be mediocre. That's if it ever comes out of course given how long they've been sitting on "The agency".

[Soln]

EQ3 has to be designed from scratch -- none of this 3 debuffs per level bullshit where you literally end up with dozens of skills on multiple hotbars.  I love lots of races and lots of classes, but the core gameplay (combat, travel, crafting) was really poor. 

[Simond]

Please note that I specifically said 'art', not gameplay. Clearly, Wow's gameplay is a success story that I can't blame any MMO company from trying to approximate.

The art direction on EQ1 and EQ2 managed to not go into cartoonsville. There were elements of the 'cute', be it the froglocks or the gnomes, but you didn't get 'groovy' zombies, kewpie doll gnomes or disney paladins.

Don't get me wrong, its probably a 'winning' formula, due to the infantilization of the populace at large when it comes to artwork. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

edit:spelling iz hoard.

I'm sorry, but what? What?
Did you play the same EQ as me, with the lumbering fatty ogres and trolls, the vaguely creepy male/cute female gnomes, the in-jokes and shout-outs around every corner, and so on? EQ wasn't some 'pure' fantasy MMO and WoW lowered the tone - WoW was just EQ Done Right. Including the gnomes.

Wait, I bet you used the terrible, soulless "Stop having fun guys!" Luclin models.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Wait, I bet you used the terrible, soulless "Stop having fun guys!" Luclin models.

Worst idea ever.

[AcidCat]

Then again SoE games seem to be designed primarily by marketing committees rather than game designers so I expect the result to be mediocre.

From what I understand from a friend, this is pretty much exactly the way it works. The dudes in the trenches are then tasked with making it come together as a functional game, and it can be a nightmare. I would guess though that a lot of games are made like this.

[Numtini]

EQ3 has to be designed from scratch -- none of this 3 debuffs per level bullshit where you literally end up with dozens of skills on multiple hotbars.  I love lots of races and lots of classes, but the core gameplay (combat, travel, crafting) was really poor. 

We all have different feelings, but to me this was the best part of EQ2, lots of things to do. I'm in favor of anything that gets away from WoW style "press these three buttons in exactly this order repeat as necessary. I loved the fact that I actually needed to think about what I was casting and prioritize things.

Also I liked the fast easy travel in EQ2. To me WoW felt like a huge chore with travel used to slow down levelling--world of travelcraft. And for whatever reason, despite being the fastest travel I can think of, it never lost the feeling of a world with different places like the insta-teleport dungeons in current WoW.

[Koyasha]

I'm sorry, but what? What?
Did you play the same EQ as me, with the lumbering fatty ogres and trolls, the vaguely creepy male/cute female gnomes, the in-jokes and shout-outs around every corner, and so on? EQ wasn't some 'pure' fantasy MMO and WoW lowered the tone - WoW was just EQ Done Right. Including the gnomes.

Wait, I bet you used the terrible, soulless "Stop having fun guys!" Luclin models.

EQ's in-jokes were much, much more subtle than the ones in WoW.  Many of them are simply playing with words, not direct references to out-of-game things.  (Merchant Tekrama, for instance).  Others are references to things specifically related to EQ, such as the names of GM's, famous players, programmers, or forum moderators for major game-related forums.  There are still a decent number of amusing references to out of game things, but the vast majority of those don't immediately jump out and make themselves blatantly obvious.  A few of them do, but it's entirely possible to walk around any given city in Norrath without instantly recognizing blatantly obvious references, unlike most cities in WoW.

And man, I hated the Luclin models cause they never got around to bothering with the Velious textures on them.  The velious textures were so awesome, and then they got rid of them and as far as I know, have never brought them back.

[WindupAtheist]

Don't get me wrong, its probably a 'winning' formula, due to the infantilization of the populace at large when it comes to artwork. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

Oh fuck you. You're the first person I've ever encountered who preferred EQ2's soulless dead-eyed mannequins to WoW's cartoon graphics.

[Nebu]

Oh fuck you. You're the first person I've ever encountered who preferred EQ2's soulless dead-eyed mannequins to WoW's cartoon graphics.

Are you ok with someone not liking either?  I'm sick of EQ2's plastic models and even more sick of the cartoony WoW look.  Of the two I also prefer EQ2, but not by much. 

[Rasix]

I'll take the functional cartoony graphics over creepy plastic love-doll, system killing graphics any day of the week.  EQ2 really failed graphically for folks with not stellar machines.  People shouldn't underestimate how accessible WoW's graphics are and how much it contributes to its success. 

[Cadaverine]

WoW's graphics are much more vibrant compared to EQ2's.  While they've gotten better, the colors in early EQ2 were very muddled, and bland.  Particularly the armors.

While I don't care for the totally over the top look to a lot of WoW gear, especially the shoulders, I much prefer their look to EQ2's.  Also, hair styles.  I don't know what drugs were being taken by whoever did the hair in EQ2, but they should probably face criminal prosecution.

[ghost]

WoW's graphics are, quite frankly, fun.  That is a great thing about WoW-  it doesn't take itself too seriously.  Are the graphics dated now?  Sure, but I'm sure they'll get a little spruce up with Cataclysm. 

[Shatter]

  Also, hair styles.  I don't know what drugs were being taken by whoever did the hair in EQ2, but they should probably face criminal prosecution.

The only saving grace were races that didnt have hair.  Nothing like choosing to play a rat cause the hairstyles on the human type races looks like something out of 2 girls 1 cup

[Simond]

Every time I want to go "The EQ2 models aren't that bad" I subsequently remember that I'm using the post-release Animu~ ^_^ models for most races.
And yeah, the art direction for the core (original release) EQ2 game was outright fucking terrible. For example, WoW's newbie gear looked like worn and tatty hand-me-downs. EQ2's looked like crap 'rescued' from the bottom of a mouldy junk pile and then left to rust for a year. And then painted brown.