EQ 'Next'

[Malakili]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

[MediumHigh]

People are dumb, the trinity, whether you do it by hard classes or by roles, is the easiest way to do content. Tank it, nuke it, heal it. Anyone can do it so everyone likes it. Everyone knows its dreadfully boring but the alternative? Actual knowledge of a complex system and developing strategy beyond this button gives + 1 to that button? Fuck that. Which is the inherent problem with improving gameplay in a style of games where gameplay was never the premium.

GW1 faced that problem. Literally no one knew how to actually play the game. Which made a dramatic barrier of entry between the pve and pvp crowds. Don't know you shouldn't spread your attribute points 6 ways? Good luck not getting curb stomped in random arena's. Players stuck to the trinity for pve encounters very stubbornly despite the, i'm not joking, thousands of combinations available, most of which without the use of a dedicated healer because that's how deep the GW1 skillset was.

GW2 failed for me in that they said you would leave an imprint on the world for your actions... I can go back to the centaur camp that I helped retake and if no one has done the string in 12 hours, it will be back in enemy hands. The zone conflict is either in State A, B, C, D or E. That's not, "Procedurally generated events leaving a long lasting impact on the world." That's the quest is in state "X".

The problem with the GW2 world system was that it was quarter done. I applaud it because its a genuine step in the right direction and its leagues better than the quest giver model. But it was a long way from making a world, which by now you would think we'd realize but I don't think the brains that be are looking in that direction. The problem with GW2 is that your still a HERO, not a controllable entity, meaning that your interactions with the world is inherently limited. To compare, the world is a series of capture points, you are always RED team and the BLUE team is merely some robots that trickle in from their base camp. For a game to be a world it has to allow players to be RED or BLUE team and give incentives to switch sides or stay on your side. Not only that but the climate of the world needs to change by forces not entirely owned by the player. Which would require again, the world not see the player has a hero, but a entity that serves his or her own purpose. So in GW2, imagine the game if the players could help bring on the dragon/zombie apocalypse, or work with the centaurs, etc etc.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

We have seen it before. Just not in MMO's. Dark souls and games like it, Skyrim and games like it ( To a lesser degree ), even games like ratchet and clank.

[MediumHigh]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

We have seen it before. Just not in MMO's. Dark souls and games like it, Skyrim and games like it ( To a lesser degree ), even games like ratchet and clank.

I will stand up and say, players really, really, really, don't want to see that in MMO's.

[Abelian75]

For a game to be a world it has to allow players to be RED or BLUE team

This is profound.

[Kitsune]

I'll believe it when I see it.

Yeah, that's been a common promise in games from day one and has yet to be realized.  The problem is that no smart monster would do anything other than run up and eat the cleric first, and no game has sufficient collision detection to allow a tank to physically block a monster from walking through them to get at the squishies.  Getting past an angry dude built like a linebacker and carrying a tower shield should by most rights be very difficult, but I'm not aware of any game where a tank had to physically interpose themselves to keep monsters from passing them instead of relying on taunt mechanics.

[eldaec]

Worrying about quest givers at this stage makes little sense.

They will try  a thing, if it doesn't work they can erect giant neon exclamation points in about 30 seconds flat.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

We have seen it before. Just not in MMO's. Dark souls and games like it, Skyrim and games like it ( To a lesser degree ), even games like ratchet and clank.

I will stand up and say, players really, really, really, don't want to see that in MMO's.

I think that's incorrect. That statement is right there with "No one wants to play a MMOFPS". Clearly, that's incorrect, there are at least 5 that are coming out soon, and a number already released to varying Degrees of MMO-ness. I would also point to games like Dragons nest, Vindictus and many other hybrids out or soon to be out that feature Better AI and maneuverability than your Typical MMORPG. What used to be a technical limitation is no longer one.  But it IS true, that many MMO combat designs and standards are standards because of Expectation. Been saying that for years. Thankfully, this looks to be changing, and not just in EQnext.

[MediumHigh]

I'll believe it when I see it.

Yeah, that's been a common promise in games from day one and has yet to be realized.  The problem is that no smart monster would do anything other than run up and eat the cleric first, and no game has sufficient collision detection to allow a tank to physically block a monster from walking through them to get at the squishies.  Getting past an angry dude built like a linebacker and carrying a tower shield should by most rights be very difficult, but I'm not aware of any game where a tank had to physically interpose themselves to keep monsters from passing them instead of relying on taunt mechanics.

The monsters have bows. The monsters shoot bows. Healer is still dead~~

[Mrbloodworth]

I'll believe it when I see it.

Yeah, that's been a common promise in games from day one and has yet to be realized.  The problem is that no smart monster would do anything other than run up and eat the cleric first, and no game has sufficient collision detection to allow a tank to physically block a monster from walking through them to get at the squishies.  Getting past an angry dude built like a linebacker and carrying a tower shield should by most rights be very difficult, but I'm not aware of any game where a tank had to physically interpose themselves to keep monsters from passing them instead of relying on taunt mechanics.

Mount and blade. But it does not work solo. But mechanically, its there and that's an example.

The monsters have bows. The monsters shoot bows. Healer is still dead~~

Sounds like a Challenge for the player to me, Not sure how this is a bad thing. Adjust the Strategy. This is a common issue in many games that's overcome, especially in more competitive games.

[MediumHigh]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

We have seen it before. Just not in MMO's. Dark souls and games like it, Skyrim and games like it ( To a lesser degree ), even games like ratchet and clank.

I will stand up and say, players really, really, really, don't want to see that in MMO's.

I think that's incorrect. That statement is right there with "No one wants to play a MMOFPS". Clearly, that's incorrect, there are at least 5 that are coming out soon, and a number already released to varying Degrees of MMO-ness. I would also point to games like Dragons nest, Vindictus and many other hybrids out or soon to be out that feature Better AI and maneuverability than your Typical MMORPG. What used to be a technical limitation is no longer one.  But it IS true, that many MMO combat designs and standards are standards because of Expectation. Been saying that for years. Thankfully, this looks to be changing.

Players have been bad at gaming for a long time. I played GW1 and I distinctively remembered how 90% of the playerbase knew fuck all how to play the game. I mean fuck all. So fuck all that they (for GW2) removed dual professions and giving players the ability to pick their own skills because that's how retarded players were that even picking 8 buttons on the keyboard was too difficult and was a barrier of entry. Nothing about the current trend of gaming has changed that.  

[Pennilenko]

From a personal perspective, I really want to see an end to the holy trinity, and more personal responsibility for tactical "twitch" reactions and skill selection in my MMO's.

However, I have said for a long time, that most players are terrible. Many people think they are much better at gaming than they actually are. 15 years of building friends in MMOs and other online games has shown me the magnitude of self delusion that convinces me that only a small portion of people actually have talent for playing video games.  Even this forum's membership, which I still respect a great deal, is composed largely of self deluded bad gamers. What all this means is that making MMO's more difficult and technical is a bad thing because people don't want to see the truth. They don't want it shoved in their face that they are bad. They want to invest the "time" necessary to overcome their talent limitations to still feel like they are achieving. EQN will need to have a high level of forgiveness in reaction time and skill usage, otherwise they will drive a good portion of their early adopters away at a fairly rapid pace.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

We have seen it before. Just not in MMO's. Dark souls and games like it, Skyrim and games like it ( To a lesser degree ), even games like ratchet and clank.

I will stand up and say, players really, really, really, don't want to see that in MMO's.

I think that's incorrect. That statement is right there with "No one wants to play a MMOFPS". Clearly, that's incorrect, there are at least 5 that are coming out soon, and a number already released to varying Degrees of MMO-ness. I would also point to games like Dragons nest, Vindictus and many other hybrids out or soon to be out that feature Better AI and maneuverability than your Typical MMORPG. What used to be a technical limitation is no longer one.  But it IS true, that many MMO combat designs and standards are standards because of Expectation. Been saying that for years. Thankfully, this looks to be changing.

Players have been bad at gaming for a long time. I played GW1 and I distinctively remembered how 90% of the playerbase knew fuck all how to play the game. I mean fuck all. So fuck all that they (for GW2) removed dual professions and giving players the ability to pick their own skills because that's how retarded players were that even picking 8 buttons on the keyboard was too difficult and was a barrier of entry. Nothing about the current trend of gaming has changed that.  

Obviously I think you are incorrect. People have been playing games with more dynamic combat for a long long time. You just have to look beyond 90% of MMO's. I believe this is what SOE is doing. I'm not saying SOE will get it right. I am saying that its no longer a technical limitation, and its not beyond acceptability. It, by all rights, may be more assessable to people not steeped in the traditional MMO combat. People not conditioned to that style of combat likely outnumber MMO players by a great margin.

I would say, your aversion and distrust of it, is likely a comfort zone issue. Your expectation and knowledge of how the systems work allows you to transition seamlessly between games like EQ2, Vanguard, Wow, and hundreds of other games with the same combat systems. That seamless transition is part of why combat tends to be variation of the same, its something developers wanted. But that can't be applied to everyone. I'm the exact opposite, I played more MMO's than I care to list, and put in a shameful amount of time. I am over quest hubs and TAB combat, have been for while.

[Merusk]

    

“I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

    Effectively we want every single person playing the game to have fun, I refuse to have my guild fall apart because one member doesn’t want to play anymore and he is our primary healer. This is a responsibility that we created as game developer and we are abandoning it, we are not going to put players through that, we have seen the damage it has caused over the past 15 years and we are moving past it with this design.”

Without specifics and a demo this is all marketing herf-blurf.  We have a lot of feel-good-speak and zero demonstration. At this point it's, "We have Stats That Matter!" v2.0.  What you, the listener, are reading in to it may not be what you get.

From a personal perspective, I really want to see an end to the holy trinity, and more personal responsibility for tactical "twitch" reactions and skill selection in my MMO's.

However, I have said for a long time, that most players are terrible. Many people think they are much better at gaming than they actually are. 15 years of building friends in MMOs and other online games has shown me the magnitude of self delusion that convinces me that only a small portion of people actually have talent for playing video games.  Even this forum's membership, which I still respect a great deal, is composed largely of self deluded bad gamers. What all this means is that making MMO's more difficult and technical is a bad thing because people don't want to see the truth. They don't want it shoved in their face that they are bad. They want to invest the "time" necessary to overcome their talent limitations to still feel like they are achieving. EQN will need to have a high level of forgiveness in reaction time and skill usage, otherwise they will drive a good portion of their early adopters away at a fairly rapid pace.

There's self-deluded and then there's, "Why am I developing this skill?  Why am I pouring HOURS in to researching the metagame.  This doesn't help me in my career, earn me money or get me laid.  Fuck your "skill based" gaming in its ass. I play to enjoy my leisure time, I'm out."  Rather than a lot of "self-deluded gamers" here I think we fall in to that category.

Those of us who don't freely admit we suck at something.  I'm a terrible FPS player on an international scale. I also don't give two shits about that if the games fun while I'm dying all over the place.

Also, move on to twitch all you want but realize you're leaving money on the table. There's plenty of us with poor motor coordination or aging reflexes who have tons of money but no patience for getting pwnd or kicked out of groups because we're not an 18 year old on redbull.  Never you mind the amputees, parapalegics etc that I've met over the years who also enjoy games.

[Mrbloodworth]

Question: Is MOBA combat too far from TAb Target to be broadly acceptable? ( I am speaking of the 3ed Person variety that has gained popularity )

[MediumHigh]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

We have seen it before. Just not in MMO's. Dark souls and games like it, Skyrim and games like it ( To a lesser degree ), even games like ratchet and clank.

I will stand up and say, players really, really, really, don't want to see that in MMO's.

I think that's incorrect. That statement is right there with "No one wants to play a MMOFPS". Clearly, that's incorrect, there are at least 5 that are coming out soon, and a number already released to varying Degrees of MMO-ness. I would also point to games like Dragons nest, Vindictus and many other hybrids out or soon to be out that feature Better AI and maneuverability than your Typical MMORPG. What used to be a technical limitation is no longer one.  But it IS true, that many MMO combat designs and standards are standards because of Expectation. Been saying that for years. Thankfully, this looks to be changing.

Players have been bad at gaming for a long time. I played GW1 and I distinctively remembered how 90% of the playerbase knew fuck all how to play the game. I mean fuck all. So fuck all that they (for GW2) removed dual professions and giving players the ability to pick their own skills because that's how retarded players were that even picking 8 buttons on the keyboard was too difficult and was a barrier of entry. Nothing about the current trend of gaming has changed that.  

Obviously I think you are incorrect. People have been playing games with more dynamic combat for a long long time. You just have to look beyond 90% of MMO's. I believe this is what SOE is doing. I'm not saying SOE will get it right. I am saying that its no longer a technical limitation, and its not beyond acceptability. It, by all rights, may be more assessable to people not steeped in the traditional MMO combat. People not conditioned to that style of combat likely outnumber MMO players by a great margin.

I would say, your aversion and distrust of it, is likely a comfort zone issue. Your expectation and knowledge of how the systems work allows you to transition seamlessly between games like EQ2, Vanguard, Wow, and hundreds of other games with the same combat systems. That seamless transition is part of why combat tends to be variation of the same, its something developers wanted. But that can't be applied to everyone. I'm the exact opposite, I played more MMO's than I care to list, and put in a shameful amount of time. I am over quest hubs and TAB combat, have been for while.

My aversion and distrust of it is most likely due to the fact that I haven't been playing mmo's for the last 10 years. And every time I do come back to an mmo, its mostly tardville without exception. People have been playing games with dynamic combat since the super nintendo, that doesn't reflect on what people want out of mmo's.

[Pennilenko]

There's self-deluded and then there's, "Why am I developing this skill?  Why am I pouring HOURS in to researching the metagame.  This doesn't help me in my career, earn me money or get me laid.  Fuck your "skill based" gaming in its ass. I play to enjoy my leisure time, I'm out."  Rather than a lot of "self-deluded gamers" here I think we fall in to that category.

Those of us who don't freely admit we suck at something.  I'm a terrible FPS player on an international scale. I also don't give two shits about that if the games fun while I'm dying all over the place.

Also, move on to twitch all you want but realize you're leaving money on the table. There's plenty of us with poor motor coordination or aging reflexes who have tons of money but no patience for getting pwnd or kicked out of groups because we're not an 18 year old on redbull.  Never you mind the amputees, parapalegics etc that I've met over the years who also enjoy games.

Hey man, I can't tell if you are mad at me or not. I agree with your perspective, and my post was only pointing out why EQN will be in trouble if they make it all skill, twitch based. I said I wanted more twitch in my MMO's because I enjoy that. I was not insinuating that I am a master gamer or anything like that. I fit right along with many of the people with aging reflexes, it really sucks too, because ten years ago I had amazing twitch reflexes. Like you, I will also happily die over and over again if I am having fun.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

We have seen it before. Just not in MMO's. Dark souls and games like it, Skyrim and games like it ( To a lesser degree ), even games like ratchet and clank.

I will stand up and say, players really, really, really, don't want to see that in MMO's.

I think that's incorrect. That statement is right there with "No one wants to play a MMOFPS". Clearly, that's incorrect, there are at least 5 that are coming out soon, and a number already released to varying Degrees of MMO-ness. I would also point to games like Dragons nest, Vindictus and many other hybrids out or soon to be out that feature Better AI and maneuverability than your Typical MMORPG. What used to be a technical limitation is no longer one.  But it IS true, that many MMO combat designs and standards are standards because of Expectation. Been saying that for years. Thankfully, this looks to be changing.

Players have been bad at gaming for a long time. I played GW1 and I distinctively remembered how 90% of the playerbase knew fuck all how to play the game. I mean fuck all. So fuck all that they (for GW2) removed dual professions and giving players the ability to pick their own skills because that's how retarded players were that even picking 8 buttons on the keyboard was too difficult and was a barrier of entry. Nothing about the current trend of gaming has changed that.  

Obviously I think you are incorrect. People have been playing games with more dynamic combat for a long long time. You just have to look beyond 90% of MMO's. I believe this is what SOE is doing. I'm not saying SOE will get it right. I am saying that its no longer a technical limitation, and its not beyond acceptability. It, by all rights, may be more assessable to people not steeped in the traditional MMO combat. People not conditioned to that style of combat likely outnumber MMO players by a great margin.

I would say, your aversion and distrust of it, is likely a comfort zone issue. Your expectation and knowledge of how the systems work allows you to transition seamlessly between games like EQ2, Vanguard, Wow, and hundreds of other games with the same combat systems. That seamless transition is part of why combat tends to be variation of the same, its something developers wanted. But that can't be applied to everyone. I'm the exact opposite, I played more MMO's than I care to list, and put in a shameful amount of time. I am over quest hubs and TAB combat, have been for while.

My aversion and distrust of it is most likely due to the fact that I haven't been playing mmo's for the last 10 years. And every time I do come back to an mmo, its mostly tardville without exception. People have been playing games with dynamic combat since the super nintendo, that doesn't reflect on what people want out of mmo's.

I believe the current trend in MMO combat seems to counter that last statement.

[Pennilenko]

Oh, my god, the quote nesting is painful...

[Abelian75]

I'm curious at what point people will stop talking about action combat in MMOs as though it is this new, untested thing.  These games already exist.  You could pretty easily argue that it's actually the norm at this point.  Some are executed far better than others, admittedly.

[Mrbloodworth]

^  

I think the issue is, if you play a MMO for any great amount of time, you are literally living under a rock. Coming up for air may indeed be shocking. Its the nature of a game that tries to achieve no end.

[MediumHigh]

Not like they all don't suck anyway 

[Merusk]

I'm curious at what point people will stop talking about action combat in MMOs as though it is this new, untested thing.  These games already exist.  You could pretty easily argue that it's actually the norm at this point.  Some are executed far better than others, admittedly.

If they're selling "Action RPG combat" they need to just state it and let the fallout happen now.  They're being cagy and instead are letting people continue to think it's the old MMO model with new thought applied to it.

Will you lose players following and hyping you? Yes.  Will it be a good portion of the WoW, TSW, GW and EQ player base? Possibly.

You'll be directing your conversation at the people you want to attract, though, rather than letting everyone interpret your vague promises with their own visions and thoughts on how things will work.  Doing that is just setting yourself up to fail spectacularly.

Hey man, I can't tell if you are mad at me or not. I agree with your perspective, and my post was only pointing out why EQN will be in trouble if they make it all skill, twitch based. I said I wanted more twitch in my MMO's because I enjoy that. I was not insinuating that I am a master gamer or anything like that. I fit right along with many of the people with aging reflexes, it really sucks too, because ten years ago I had amazing twitch reflexes. Like you, I will also happily die over and over again if I am having fun.

Aint nothing worth getting mad about in games if you have no financial stake.  I'm being aggressive but only because I'm so irritated at the vague nothings put out there by SOE.  Lots of empty words.  We agree on the twitch part and why they would be in trouble.

I'll even go so far as to say I want less twitch because I simply don't give a fuck. None. If I want twitch I play an FPS.  Action RPGs bore the shit out of me.  I played LoL for all of 2 months. I got through Diablo 3 and realized I didn't want to do it again.  They're not my cup of tea.

That's not to say they should cater to me.  If that's the direction they want to go, come out and SAY IT. There's plenty who want that, just let the rest of us off the hype train and move on.

[Draegan]

I think EQN is trying to be an MMO-LOL. You have 40 classes to collect, you have a small amount of abilities to use. Go out and have fun and play. There will be easy shit to do (bot games) you will have average stuff to do (bronze elo stuff) and then you will have difficult things to do.

What I enjoy most about the LOL comparison is that you can watch a LOL game and enjoy watching it. You can appreciate and point out skilled play. When something happens you can see it and clap. There is nothing fun about watching an MMO player play. I think if you can give character distinct moves that people can see and point out then a game becomes infinitely more fun to play and spectate.

[Merusk]

Spectating a game has always boggled me. Why not play?

No, I don't particularly enjoy watching sports, either.

[Mrbloodworth]

"MMO-LOL" is exactly what I get from it too, not that far from Wildstar as well. I think its really reconcilable that its very close to Third person MOBA combat.

[Numtini]

Define skill? Is it knowing what ability to use at what point? Or is it having the reflexes of a ritalin spiked 13 year old? Generally, when I hear about "player skill" it's the latter.

[Mrbloodworth]

It can be both, one is normally useless with out the other. Games that support 50/50 are best.


Personally, I enjoy games where you can see a creatures "Tell" as opposed to having read that X is what you need, but other than the wiki, you can not visually tell on the screen. I find that much more compelling, and much more interesting, because I can then go and say "yeah man, watch out for Orcs, don't let them get behind you, especially if they have an axe!" to others. The act of knowing that is knowledge of the system, the ability to recognize its about to happen is a skill.


Hell, Cube world does the "weapon is ability" thing to a degree, and it very utility based, not just different numbers with the same animation.

[Malakili]

Define skill? Is it knowing what ability to use at what point? Or is it having the reflexes of a ritalin spiked 13 year old? Generally, when I hear about "player skill" it's the latter.

Both?  What is skill in baseball? Knowing what pitch to throw, or actually putting it right on the edge of the plate?  What is skill in football? Knowing when to throw the ball, or actually laying it over the defenders reach? 

I don't know why people always bring up this dichotomy.  Any Starcraft pro with 300 APM always has a much finer understanding of strategy than I ever will too.

[Falconeer]

What I enjoy most about the LOL comparison is that you can watch a LOL game and enjoy watching it. You can appreciate and point out skilled play. When something happens you can see it and clap. There is nothing fun about watching an MMO player play. I think if you can give character distinct moves that people can see and point out then a game becomes infinitely more fun to play and spectate.

That is because it's PvP. PvP can be interesting to watch about pretty much everything (even more so technical games like MOBAs). PvE games, not so much, no matter how well done they are. As Merusk says, "why not play it?" But when it comes to PvP, there's plenty of reasons why people don't play and prefer to watch, like in sports.

[Mrbloodworth]

What I enjoy most about the LOL comparison is that you can watch a LOL game and enjoy watching it. You can appreciate and point out skilled play. When something happens you can see it and clap. There is nothing fun about watching an MMO player play. I think if you can give character distinct moves that people can see and point out then a game becomes infinitely more fun to play and spectate.

That is because it's PvP. PvP can be interesting to watch about pretty much everything (even more so technical games like MOBAs). PvE games, not so much, no matter how well done they are. As Merusk says, "why not play it?" But when it comes to PvP, there's plenty of reasons why people don't play and prefer to watch, like in sports.

To the average lol player, Intermediate bots are rough, if not rougher than other humans. Bots do not make miss judgements.

[Falconeer]

Ok, but is a PvE LoL match interesting to watch? It could be, it's not really my field, I'll let you be the judge. I have a hard time believing so though.

[Abelian75]

If they're selling "Action RPG combat" they need to just state it and let the fallout happen now.  They're being cagy and instead are letting people continue to think it's the old MMO model with new thought applied to it.

Isn't it pretty obvious from the videos?  I mean, you're right, the buzzwords and bullshit are infuriating.  But I'd basically bet my ass that it's action RPG combat.  That is the new hot thing.  Didn't you know?  GOD OF WAR!  SKILL-BASED COMBAT.   HAVOK PHYSICS FULLY DESTRUCTIBLE ENVIORNMENTS WOOOOOOOOOOO.

Ahem.  Sorry, got a little carried away.

[Malakili]

What I enjoy most about the LOL comparison is that you can watch a LOL game and enjoy watching it. You can appreciate and point out skilled play. When something happens you can see it and clap. There is nothing fun about watching an MMO player play. I think if you can give character distinct moves that people can see and point out then a game becomes infinitely more fun to play and spectate.

That is because it's PvP. PvP can be interesting to watch about pretty much everything (even more so technical games like MOBAs). PvE games, not so much, no matter how well done they are. As Merusk says, "why not play it?" But when it comes to PvP, there's plenty of reasons why people don't play and prefer to watch, like in sports.

To the average lol player, Intermediate bots are rough, if not rougher than other humans. Bots do not make miss judgements.

That isn't really the point though.  Competition is interesting to watch for most people, particularly high level competition.  I don't know a thing about sprinting or rowing or gymnastics, but I watch the olympics because the storylines are interesting and I like watching people who are really good at things compete at them.  Same with with SC2 or LoL or DOTA 2. 

I should add that sometimes PvE is interesting to watch.  Siglemic playing Mario 64 is awesome (in the most literal sense of that word). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=KbkYT9a4lAY

[Trippy]

I think one thing that you’ll see from us and we’ll demonstrate this as we get deeper into combat, is that we have a very detailed and intricate plan for moving around and fighting. The NPCs are capable of executing strategy and tactics and you’ll require your own intricate tactics to overcome them. We are saying that no one specific role or pair of roles is required in unlocking the strategy to defeating an encounter. It’s not to say that we are walking away from roles and it’s certainly not to say we are walking away from responsibility, both personal strategic and tactical responsibility….

I'll believe it when I see it.

We have seen it before. Just not in MMO's. Dark souls and games like it, Skyrim and games like it ( To a lesser degree ), even games like ratchet and clank.

TERA already has that. It's not as unforgiving as Demon's Souls -- you can button mash on most trash mobs if you want to -- but the tougher mobs require a good deal of reflexes and manual dexterity to survive.