Cataclysm

[Rendakor]

Rogues are useless? Since when? Rogues regularly lead melee-friendly DPS parses in ICC. Also, he isn't ignoring shitty quests he's already done if his characters are both 70.

That said, Hunters are more solo friendly; but they're getting a major overhaul in Cataclysm so you get to relearn the class TWICE. Rogues, on the other hand, aren't receiving any major changes so any skill you develop in the months til Cata launches will be retained.

[apocrypha]

Rogues are useless? Since when? Rogues regularly lead melee-friendly DPS parses in ICC. Also, he isn't ignoring shitty quests he's already done if his characters are both 70.

I said while levelling. At 80 with gear, yeah, rogues are great. Getting there? Fucking awful. What exactly is a rogues role in 5-mans before they get FoK? They do the worst DPS of any class, nearly always out-dps'd by the tank. They have very low survivability. Vanish works maybe 30% of the time. There's no need for CC any more. Not even a need for lockpicking chests.

And fair point about the questing, if you've not done the WOTLK levelling already then yeah, good way to level, just a bit slow and with crappy gear compared to being a tank or healer and running random dungeons.

[Simond]

Good job Cataclysm is deliberately breaking the WotLK-era "herd everything into a clump and AOE down" mechanics, then.

ObMusic: Stormwind (variation) music is depressing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXhAKAHSe7k

[Fordel]

Oh look, Vanish is down to 30% now! 






I've gotten around to playing some of the new zones instead of the revamped ones. Finished Hyjal and almost done with Vashjir.


Hyjal is cinematic, more so then any other zone I've experienced. The entire zone is one big "movie", there is one cohesive plot to the place, with major lore figures interacting with you along the way. It has excellent pacing, only one area in the zone did I ever really feel like I was bogged down or stuck with some tedious gimme quests. You start at the top of the mountain, and just work your way down pushing back all the Twilight Cultists and Rags minions as you go. The zone is visually spectacular, if your PC can handle it, set your view distance to max and enjoy.

Mechanics wise it has the full spectrum of quest types. Has some 'vehicle' quests, but they're more like interactive items mostly rather then tank driving. For example, one quest wants you to rescue some baby bear cubs stuck some trees. The trees are the 'vehicles' and you climb up them till you reach a cub and once you grab the cub, you climb to the very top of the tree and get the standard turret targeting interface so you can throw the cub onto a pile of padded furs. To quote the quest giver: "Nothing can go wrong with this plan."

Probably the biggest thing is the single player boss fights. Each quest series caps off with a big fight and it isn't just some random elite you burn down, but an actual mini encounter with mechanics and a strat to follow or you'll just fail and probably die. They aren't like raid boss complex by any means, but they are rather clever. Sometimes instead of a single boss mob, its more of a gauntlet type of encounter. Like, one "boss" is actually a recreation of Joust, as in the old arcade game, silly wing flapping and all!

Hyjal Story Spoilers:
End Hyjal Spoilers






Vashjir, the underwater Naga zone... what can I say about this place. It starts off with a really nice little intro cut-scene/event, with a bunch of SW soldiers talking about how the Cataclysm brought up this new island near SW's coast, and how if the horde gets a foot hold on said island, they can just sail right into SW and etc. So you ride out in your ship and are immediately attacked by a giant squid and sunk. I'm probably about 2/3rds through the zone now and the overall theme is "halp halp, I am underwater." with a side order of "Naga being jerks, again".

Help those people reach a airpocket cave, now help those people find food, now fight off the naga attack, now find a new airpocket cave, now bring all the people to the new cave, now find them food again, now fight off yet another naga attack, now find a new... you do this at least five or six times, it just sorta blurs together. Maybe the zone ends with a bang or something, but I was having a hard time finding any urgency. You never get a sense of "If we don't stop these Naga here and now, we are screwed" the way Hyjal did.

Visually the zone is great, it's half 'The Little Mermaid' and half 'The Abyss'. They really made full use of the Z axis in the zone, which really gives you the sense you are actually underwater. At one point I was questing INSIDE a giant snail creature thing, it was enormous, very cool to see. I didn't actually realize it was a "thing" untill I got to it's head and was like "fuck this thing has eyes and is looking at me". There is also a huge NE/Highborne style ruined city down there, it's also enormous and a real treat to explore.

With that said, they really made full use of the Z axis in this zone, and fuck the Z axis. WoW is better then most MMO's at dealing with the Z axis, but it's still sub-optimal. Having to deal with an entire zone built around it, is just plain old annoying after awhile. Also, I'm pretty good at handling the Z axis, but even I had times where I had to stop and figure out where the shit I was in relation to my nearest quest hub or objective. If you are someone, or know someone who couldn't handle the floating phase in the Kael'thas boss fight... go to Hyjal and stay the fuck away from this place. They'll do nothing but get lost, disoriented and die to the 50 adds they pulled from above or below them.

The way they handle water breathing and travel and crap is by giving you a buff when you enter the zone. It lets you breathe underwater in the zone, swim at your normal run speed and lets you walk on the ocean floor. The ocean floor walking animation is cute, its a little moonwalk hop. You also get a Seahorse for a underwater mount and there are Seahorse "flight paths" between the 50 airpocket cave quest hubs. You can leave the zone by taking the Seahorse flightpath to the new island the Horde and Alliance are fighting over, which has actual griffin flight paths back to Ironforge and stuff. You also eventually get another griffin flight path off a friendly boat too.

The zone has a decent quest spread, but it isn't as good as Hyjal. They couldn't really do a lot of really fancy stuff in this zone due to the Z axis again. There is a neat little recurring quest chain, that has you flashback into this Naga Battle-maiden's life, to give you insight as to what the Naga are actually trying to do in the zone. Helps break up the 72 cave relocation quests you do. You seriously change cave bases like a dozen times. Lots of filler in this zone, that's a good way to put it.



Hyjal is the zone I am probably going to level in once Cata goes live, though I have a Druid Elf bias. Also, Malfurions new model is even more ridiculous in action. 

[apocrypha]

Oh look, Vanish is down to 30% now! 

I haven't *measured* this. I just know it rarely works for me. Definitely fails more often than not.

I agree about Hyjal being better than Vashjir, from the little I've played the beta. Vashjir as Horde didn't seem to have any kind of story or reason for being there other than "hey look new zone, do some quests". But ofc that might just have been because it wasn't finished yet when I was playing it a few weeks ago.

[Sjofn]

Rogues are useless? Since when? Rogues regularly lead melee-friendly DPS parses in ICC. Also, he isn't ignoring shitty quests he's already done if his characters are both 70.

I said while levelling. At 80 with gear, yeah, rogues are great. Getting there? Fucking awful. What exactly is a rogues role in 5-mans before they get FoK? They do the worst DPS of any class, nearly always out-dps'd by the tank. They have very low survivability. Vanish works maybe 30% of the time. There's no need for CC any more. Not even a need for lockpicking chests.

And fair point about the questing, if you've not done the WOTLK levelling already then yeah, good way to level, just a bit slow and with crappy gear compared to being a tank or healer and running random dungeons.

I am in the process of leveling in WotLK as a rogue right now, and I find nothing you've said here to be true except for the comments about CC and lockpicking. Even without Fan of Knives I am beating most of the tanks and DPSers I'm up against (unless they're rockin' heirlooms, usually). Are my fellow groupmates terrible? Probably, but that's been pretty standard in my leveling up process. My survivability has been fine (I can't remember the last time I've died that wasn't an instance wipe), and vanish has worked for me nearly every single time I've needed it - which has not been very often, to be perfectly honest.

Do I have to eat or use bandages? Yep. But this hasn't been a slog by any stretch of the imagination.


EDIT: And I'm doing this entirely without heirlooms. I DO have a flying mount, though, which does make a difference in the getting-to-shit aspect of the game.

[apocrypha]

Interesting, I wonder what I'm doing wrong then?

I'm combat specced, heirloomed out fully, even using buff foods and elixirs. Stuff dies in instance groups too fast for me to get more than 1 or 2 combo points on so it's all I can do to keep S&D up, almost never get to use a real finishing move except on bosses.

I'm always top of the activity chart in Recount, and bottom of the DPS chart. I also use bandages and food since, having played a lot of healers, I know how nice it is to have DPS that make some attempt to heal themselves.

What spec are you and what kind of rotation do you use, if you don't mind me asking?

[Sjofn]

I'm combat, and I should probably stress that I am pretty sure I've had really shitty competition most of the time. Moon Guard's battlegroup is sort of dumb from what I can tell. I also may find it to be more of a problem in the mid 70's than the early 70's, I dunno!   I use food but not elixirs because I am a lazy rogue that doesn't care. Anyway, my "rotation" on trash is putting SnD up at two combo points, then basically sinister striking anything I can hit. :P I also pop blade fury + killing spree whenever it's off cooldown (unless a boss is coming up in the next pull or something). Bosses are just getting SnD up, killing spree, then five point eviscerates.

It IS sort of weird how I've been doing pretty OK in instances in WotLK, because I was generally last of the DPSers in vanilla. I suspect it's partly because I was facing WAY MORE heirloom'd people + gettng way shittier quest rewards.

One place rogues do sort of seem to shine is when interupts are helpful. Or at least that's what I like to tell myself, since I'm the only person who bothers ever in my groups.


EDIT: Just to show how shitty my DPS competition can be, I have hit 1k-ish DPS as a highwater mark (I'm more often 800-900 over the course of an instance). I've had hunters (hunters! Who I see volleying!) at like ... 500 by the end. Maybe they're putting their AE circle no where near the actual mobs. 

[Selby]

I also may find it to be more of a problem in the mid 70's than the early 70's, I dunno!  

My rogue was destroying things until about 68-69 and then only average until hitting the mid 70's, then started to really slow down on DPS compared to the rest of the group.  My rotation wasn't sucking or "doing it wrong" but my DPS was constantly the lowest of the 3 DPS if I had 2 competent DPSers in the group.  I was also not in blues, which probably didn't help me out either.  I don't know, other than lockpicking I didn't really care for my rogue that much.

[Merusk]

Rogues and DKs are falling behind the curve right now because the majority of their skills are Weapon-Damage based rather than AP-based.  "Do x% of weapon damage + <modifier>"  is pretty common for both classes.   Sinister Strike, Plague Strike, etc.  They don't get the boost that Pallies, Wars, Shaman, Mages etc get from the stupidly-high endgame stats because the few skills they do have that use AP use such a small percentage of it when compared to spellpower or Pallie/ War's AP skills.

Why any of you are seeing it without being at the top is beyond me, though, unless you're using Heirlooms on your rogue.  Once you hit 70 they aren't always the best weapon for your level. (Not that it's worth farming the blues that are, just use 'em if you happen across them.)

[WoopeeTuralyon]

My rogue, at ~40, could almost never top the other two dps simply because I had no AoE. Same with my spriest. My single target dps is very high, but I fall behind on AoE pulls.

[Rasix]

Who gives a shit about pre-max level DPS?  Hit your buttons and don't die.  There, you're better than 90% of the other DPS.

Interesting, I wonder what I'm doing wrong then?

I'm combat specced, heirloomed out fully, even using buff foods and elixirs. Stuff dies in instance groups too fast for me to get more than 1 or 2 combo points on so it's all I can do to keep S&D up, almost never get to use a real finishing move except on bosses.

I'm always top of the activity chart in Recount, and bottom of the DPS chart. I also use bandages and food since, having played a lot of healers, I know how nice it is to have DPS that make some attempt to heal themselves.

What spec are you and what kind of rotation do you use, if you don't mind me asking?

Do you have the right type of weapons?  If you're SSing with a daggers, I'm going to punch you in the groin.

SS spam.  Get SND up if you can. Make sure your weapons have a DPS poison on.   Use Killing Spree (GLYPH THIS) whenever it's up (not with Adrenaline Rush).  Bonus points if you use it with Blade Fury.  Use Adrenaline Rush whenever it's up.  Bonus points if you use it with Blade Fury.  Don't waste your time in stealth.

[Threash]

Who gives a shit about pre-max level DPS?  Hit your buttons and don't die.  There, you're better than 90% of the other DPS.

This.  I was more concerned about max level/decent gear pvp performance and since it looks like hunter is going to be undergoing some mayor changes i think i'll stick with the rogue.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Stealth isn't particularly useful for combat rogues. Mine was sub, though, so I could PvP effectively if I wanted.

[apocrypha]

I do pretty much exactly what you describe Sjofn. And get about the same DPS, 900-1000ish, putting me right at the bottom of the groups. I think we have very different battlgroups! And yeah, interrupting is what I have decided my most useful role in levelling 5-mans is.

I know it's only low level group stuff, but I like to feel useful! I suppose partly it's because I usually play healers, so I'm used to being the person most likely to rescue the group from a disastrous cock-up. Playing my rogue (who's 65 now) I often feel I could AFK for most of the dungeon and nobody would notice 

Interesting that you put DKs in with rogues Merusk, they're the ones who are usually top of the DPS in my groups, along with ret paladins, elemental shamans and afflic warlocks. But yeah, pre-80, it's all irrelevant really.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Merusk did say that DKs fall behind when mages and such obtain stupidly high stats from end-game raid gear. Didn't mention them at less than maximum level.

[Rendakor]

No wonder you rogues are doing shitty dps, you're playing combat. Respec mutilate, especially if you have access to heirloom daggers.

[Merusk]

Merusk did say that DKs fall behind when mages and such obtain stupidly high stats from end-game raid gear. Didn't mention them at less than maximum level.

Yep.   DKs are strong SOBs when other classes are at their weakest.. which only hurts the class because when leveling or in early PVp all you hear is "Fuck they're OP." 

The way Blizz explained it a few months ago is that there's certain classes that start strong then dwindle as gear progress, others that do the opposite and others that start mid-pack but never fall behind.   They listed DKs as a class that starts off strong at low gear levels and but dwindles as things increase.  Fury wars were on the opposite along with mages and I don't recall the "middle of the pack" example.  The post indicated this was "as intended" but I think it's a lousy design if it is indeed the case the case and the post wasn't just them trying to cover for the imbalances.

[Nevermore]

No wonder you rogues are doing shitty dps, you're playing combat. Respec mutilate, especially if you have access to heirloom daggers.

Combat dps is almost as good as mutilate, and actually better when there's a lot of target switching.  Plus, I personally hate the mutilate rotation.  Sub is actually my favorite spec by far for the actual fun factor, but the dps for Sub is horrible.  Blizzard only considers 3 specs to be broken for dps in pve, and Sub is one of them.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

No wonder you rogues are doing shitty dps, you're playing combat. Respec mutilate, especially if you have access to heirloom daggers.

Combat dps is almost as good as mutilate, and actually better when there's a lot of target switching.  Plus, I personally hate the mutilate rotation.  Sub is actually my favorite spec by far for the actual fun factor, but the dps for Sub is horrible.  Blizzard only considers 3 specs to be broken for dps in pve, and Sub is one of them.

Sub is fun in PvP too, especially at lower levels. Dropping ambushes over 1k on level 20s is lovely.

[Rendakor]

Combat dps is almost as good as mutilate, and actually better when there's a lot of target switching.  Plus, I personally hate the mutilate rotation.  Sub is actually my favorite spec by far for the actual fun factor, but the dps for Sub is horrible.  Blizzard only considers 3 specs to be broken for dps in pve, and Sub is one of them.

At low levels? Really? When I leveled my rogue I leveled combat pre-lvl 50, and had the same experience as people posting here: mediocre dps, barely outparsing the tanks, etc. I could barely hang with my girlfriend's holy priest while duoing ffs. When I respecced into Mut my dps doubled, easily, on quick fights because Mut hits so much harder than SS did.

Edit: added quote for clarity.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

At low levels? Really? When I leveled my rogue I leveled combat pre-lvl 50, and had the same experience as people posting here: mediocre dps, barely outparsing the tanks, etc. I could barely hang with my girlfriend's holy priest while duoing ffs. When I respecced into Mut my dps doubled, easily, on quick fights because Mut hits so much harder than SS did.

PvP. My dps is always below everybody except other rogues in instances. It's the PvP I like. And a sub rogue would probably use Hemorrhage, not SS. SS hits pitifully with daggers, as I'm sure you know.

[Rendakor]

Sorry, I was talking to Nevermore. I'll go throw a quote in to make it look better.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Sorry, I was talking to Nevermore. I'll go throw a quote in to make it look better.

Oops.

[Sjofn]

No wonder you rogues are doing shitty dps, you're playing combat. Respec mutilate, especially if you have access to heirloom daggers.

Lazy combat rogue for life!

I've considered respeccing to mutilate when I hit 80 just to try it, but I like combat a lot. I want to marry killing spree.

[Rasix]

Mut is a pain in the ass for instances.  Having to rely on a minute long buff and needing stealth for optimum damage doesn't play out too well.   Combat is brain off, damage ON. 

[Fabricated]

mut is good for raiding since bosses don't die before you even get halfway into your rotation.

[Ingmar]

Most of the rogue dps issues in leveling instances can be traced *directly* to not having any AE worth mentioning until late.

[Sjofn]

Combat is brain off, damage ON. 

Exactly. 

[apocrypha]

Most of the rogue dps issues in leveling instances can be traced *directly* to not having any AE worth mentioning until late.

This is what it feels like to me. It's just the way people run instances nowadays.

Anyway, this is the Cataclysm thread, not the how-to-rogue thread, sorry for shitting it up! I am struggling to decide who I'm going to level when Cata launches. I don't think I can be arsed to 2-box level this time, too many of the new quest mechanics aren't conducive to it (vehicles, etc.), plus it makes random dungeon queuing impossible.

Think I'll alternate between a tank and a healer and a worgen and a goblin. Probably DK tank (she's a lot of fun), druid healer (he rocks, but I will mourn for tree form) and god knows what for the furry and the greeny.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, I dunno what character to level first either. It'll be a tank, I just dunno which one. Not the warrior, because our guild has an embarrassment of tanking warriors, but otherwise it's pretty open.

Clearly I should punt and just level a goblin.

[Ashamanchill]

Sorry for making a few necros here, but I didn't get to reply to most of the posts I made on the issues. Thankfully, I'm back now and have all the time in the world. In no particular order:

1. Holy shit you people have a lot of alts! I am one of those people that only really has one character (not including one crummy alliance pally I leveled to 80 just to see what the trip was like on that side). I blame achievements for this. As stupid as it is I find it weird to play on a toon who doesn't have Less Rabi, or The Lurker Below lol.

2. At Ingmar (or Sjofn...I forgot who it was I was discussing Bear tanks with): I'm kind of scared for bears in the upcoming expansion. They are a really hard spec to get right, and it's too easy to remember what bears used to be like to welcome any change. They are in a good place now, and I don't really want the rug pulled out from under them. Plus, if rage normalization gets screwed up, they will get hit twice.

3. I really like the new direction they are going with talent trees. I mean, take a look at the new ones, then look at the old bloated stretched out beasts and tell me what they are doing isn't a good thing.

4. Why all the hate for Hellfire?! As funny as it sounds, that is my favorite zone in all of wow. I mean, I have very found memories of running through that gate when BC first launched and laughing as all the old try hards screamed in general chat that the purple they had taken forever to farm from Ony was being replaced by a green dropped from some boar. Hyuk hyuk.

5. Regarding rated battlegrounds. I strongly suspect there is going to be a large scale segregation, where to get on a rated team you are going to have to be a certain class, with a certain spec, with certain gear, while on the other end you are left to queue normally with only the people who don't grasp that the position of the flag, and not their killing blows, is what determines a win. I just feels like the people in the middle are going to get screwed, and I just think the whole thing is a mistake. My fear is that it is going to end up exactly like arena.

[apocrypha]

Bear tank is tempting just because I've never played one. DK tank is fun though... and she's a female undead which always makes me laugh when she's tanking. This skinny, frail looking bag of bones holding all the agro off of the giant tauren warriors in their shoulderpads the size of municipal transport vehicles 

[Shrike]

Some talent trees may look OK, but shaman seem to be lacking love in the "some". Well, maybe resto, but enhance is really looking like a soup sandwich so far. Bloat? Hah! It's nothing but bloat. Worse than it is now.

My DK is looking better and better. Blood tank? Could very well be come the expansion. Fortunately, I have 3 level 80 draenei, so I'm covered no matter which train goes off the rails. I hope.

[proudft]

1. Holy shit you people have a lot of alts!

4. Why all the hate for Hellfire?!

These two things are directly related.