Cataclysm

[kildorn]

I'm liking the changes so far, though I'm still really REALLY wary of the whole "we're adding an eygpt zone, an underwater zone, and a 10 tier alternate advancement system in the same patch" thing. Part of me just screams NOOOOOOOO, even if they already said the underwater zone totally isn't (fight on the floor, launch up to swim whenever. Sounds like any normal zone with a flying mount to me)

The Worgen starting zone is wonderful, and I want those outfits in an endgame set. CoT Gilneas with those items as epics, please.

I don't expect to see this for another year, but the majority of the changes are pretty solid, once you step back from the "OHGOD they're making the game simpler!" cliff. They said they're going to tweak old racials and bring them up to the new ones, but I'm also thinking that a major revamp will be due for a few of them (+%int/+%spi strike me as being unreasonably well scaling now).

My major oh shit is that Archaeology is looking to be an absolutely required tradeskill now, and should just be considered the new Hodir rep bar. Yeah, in theory you can skip it, but in reality there's no way in hell you can.

[Simond]

It's a secondary skill (like cooking/first aid/fishing), not a tradeskill in itself. It's also gated so that people can't just powerlevel through it which, to me, implies that progress should otherwise be fairly quick.

[Kail]

You'll use "Reforging" to exchange one stat on an item for another (like +hit) that is not currently on the item.

Not sure I'm understanding the mechanics behind this.

So I take a chestpiece which has only +str and +sta on it, I can split the +str up and give the sword a bit of +hit, right?  But I can't give it any more +sta than it already has, because that stat is already on the item, aye?  But say, later, I decide I want more +hit, or I don't actually want that +hit at all and I want my +str back, I can't actually do anything about it because those stats are now on the item? 

That sounds like a dangerous mechanic to me; "permanently fuck up your highest level items, hope you know for a solid fact that you're going to NEED this 20 points of +hit for the next six months or you'll be farming Deathwing's Outhouse for the next six months to get a replacement, P.S. I hope you weren't planning on using this skill without Elitist Jerks open in another window, or you would have forgotten the precise formula which makes all this crap make sense."

How am I misunderstanding this?

[Musashi]

My major oh shit is that Archaeology is looking to be an absolutely required tradeskill now, and should just be considered the new Hodir rep bar. Yeah, in theory you can skip it, but in reality there's no way in hell you can.

ANYTHING has got to be better than a rep grind.

[Righ]

They may be further along with Cataclysm development than they're letting on just yet.

[Merusk]

How am I misunderstanding this?

You're not.  That's the first hole I saw in it as well. "Well great, I knocked down some stam and agi to give myself more +hit/whatever and now I've got way too much +hit and could really use that stamina back."

I imagine Blizz saw it as well, since it's a HUGE fucking hole in the system.  Perhaps you can reforge an item back to its original stats.

[jakonovski]

It would be funny if 3.3 wasn't icecrown.

It better, one raid doesn't an MMO make, and WotLK was already shamefully lacking in content.

[Koyasha]

New caster Legendary in Icecream Citadel that Shadow Priests will presumably want.

(Obviously a hunter caster weapon.)

The talk about caster legendaries was that they're due for one and it'll probably be top of the list for Cataclysm.  The one from Icecrown is going to be that axe, Shadowmourne.

Also, I didn't hear any specific information saying that Spirit would be +spell power for healers.  It will be mana regen, and it'll only be on healer gear, but I think they still need Int for spell power.

And yeah, I presume you'll be able to reforge an item to remove all previous reforgings, so you can un-fuck an item you've screwed up.  Honestly it didn't even occur to me that you wouldn't be able to.

[Merusk]

It would be funny if 3.3 wasn't icecrown.

It better, one raid doesn't an MMO make, and WotLK was already shamefully lacking in content.

That'd be one raid doesn't a DIKU make.. and your math is off.

[Merusk]

The talk about caster legendaries was that they're due for one and it'll probably be top of the list for Cataclysm.  The one from Icecrown is going to be that axe, Shadowmourne.

Also, I didn't hear any specific information saying that Spirit would be +spell power for healers.  It will be mana regen, and it'll only be on healer gear, but I think they still need Int for spell power.

Yep.. but damn it being an axe. Human racial has been worthless this whole expansion. Fucking horde bias! 

Yeah they did say int = spellpower now. They explicitly stated spirit will only be healer regen and only on healer gear.  Apparently this is because managing resources 'isn't fun' so they want to get away from making casters manage mana. Other than healers, who are the group that has always bitched in the past that managing mana is one of the fun aspects/ ways of showing off for them so they didn't want to see it go away.

[Paelos]

Well, I think they've officially lost their minds. It's back to basics and I have no desire to do that. Someone tell them to put a rush on Diablo 3 already.

[Rasix]

Yep.. but damn it being an axe. Human racial has been worthless this whole expansion. Fucking horde bias! 

Titansteel Destroyer and the poor souls still hitched to one disagree with you.   

[Merusk]

Those people don't matter. Real players farm Ulduar. 

[Simond]

Well, I think they've officially lost their minds. It's back to basics and I have no desire to do that. Someone tell them to put a rush on Diablo 3 already.

Haha, Blizzard rush? And even if they did, people would probably call the news fake anyway.... 

[kildorn]

It's a secondary skill (like cooking/first aid/fishing), not a tradeskill in itself. It's also gated so that people can't just powerlevel through it which, to me, implies that progress should otherwise be fairly quick.

But unlike cooking or first aid, it at this point appears to be required for character progression. Hence my note that it may as well be a new rep grind. Think Hodir, but only doable by finding those fucking ice shards. :P

I'm hoping I'm wrong or they figure out how horrible an idea that is. But it's akin to making it so you can only eat food you cooked yourself for the end game, which would make cooking a required secondary skill for any high level play.

Now, all this is moot if someone else can dig up shit you can use to advance your path and it turns into inscription-lite.

[Hellinar]

Now, all this is moot if someone else can dig up shit you can use to advance your path and it turns into inscription-lite.

From the systems panel summary:

"You earn these ancient glyphs by using the new Archaeology secondary profession to recover and trade in titan artifacts. "

So it sounds like the artifacts will be an AH item. The sockets that the glyphs go in is what your character has to personally open by "various activities". Filling the sockets gives you your new powers.

[Kageru]

I imagine Blizz saw it as well, since it's a HUGE fucking hole in the system.  Perhaps you can reforge an item back to its original stats.

I watched the panels and I'm pretty sure they said you could re-forge / recover the original item.

[Ingmar]

Well, I think they've officially lost their minds. It's back to basics and I have no desire to do that. Someone tell them to put a rush on Diablo 3 already.

4 raids at launch, there will be plenty for people who aren't interested in leveling a new alt.

[Rendakor]

I took that as those 4 raids will be the raids released over the course of the expansions life cycle (like Naxx, Ulduar, ToC and IC).

[jakonovski]

Titansteel Destroyer and the poor souls still hitched to one disagree with you.   

Hey, that's my Warrior! I can't take the tedium of raid farming so I never get the good stuff.

[jakonovski]

That'd be one raid doesn't a DIKU make.. and your math is off.

From my perspective, the leveling content was gone in a flash and the heroics were ditched in favor of Naxx farming ad nauseam.

[Koyasha]

I took that as those 4 raids will be the raids released over the course of the expansions life cycle (like Naxx, Ulduar, ToC and IC).

I can't be 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure I remember one of them (I think the dungeon designer guy) saying that it would launch with those four raids.

[apocrypha]

Hey, that's my Warrior! I can't take the tedium of raid farming so I never get the good stuff.

From my perspective, the leveling content was gone in a flash and the heroics were ditched in favor of Naxx farming ad nauseam.

 

[jakonovski]

 

Ergo lack of content for me. The guild farmed and my sub lapsed.

[Merusk]

You said Raids, not 5-man dungeons, so yes, your math was off and remains so.  However, even on the 5-man front I'd disagree since there's plenty of dungeons to run at 80.  You just wound up on a lousy low pop server or refuse to PUG.  The first I can empathize with, but haven't ever had to deal with.  Mine still had a steady stream of heroics going before the new badge farming upswing.   The second is not their problem to fix.

I think apo is scratching his head because you said you didn't want to farm raids, but seem to want to farm heroics.  There's a disconnect there.

[jakonovski]

You said Raids, not 5-man dungeons, so yes, your math was off and remains so.  However, even on the 5-man front I'd disagree since there's plenty of dungeons to run at 80.  You just wound up on a lousy low pop server or refuse to PUG.  The first I can empathize with, but haven't ever had to deal with.  Mine still had a steady stream of heroics going before the new badge farming upswing.   The second is not their problem to fix.

I think apo is scratching his head because you said you didn't want to farm raids, but seem to want to farm heroics.  There's a disconnect there.

There's much more variation when doing heroics, and a smaller group makes for better social dynamics (relaxed banter vs. herding cats). Also, heroics take much, much less time.

Edit: arg, now I get your point. The thing is, I found the 5-mans also sorely lacking, because of the utter itemization failure. There was no incentive to run them, thus it was all pass-by content.

[SurfD]

EDIT: The defense cap isn't arbitrary, it's directly related to the notion that a level grants 0.2% crit reduction and the base chance to be crit by a mob in melee is 5%.  It's just not listed anywhere in-game.

What I don't get is, why can't we just have bosses crit? Why can't we have spells and abilities that sometimes miss?  Putting in stats that directly counter randomness like that just kind of makes the game predictable and boring.  Or just boring it out and make everything hit and bosses never crit, but don't waste a stat on it.

I suppose that's why there's so much fire you're not supposed to stand in.

Fake edit: maybe I'm alone in my little crusade against stats like hit, defense caps, etc.   

Well, i sort of understand why you might not need / want hit, because the random chance of missing spells could "liven" things up a bit, but look at the flip side:  A lot of classes now a days in wow have some pretty complex dps rotations.  If you miss a key attack in your rotation, you can seriously fuck up your damage output.  And no one enjoys that.

As to Defense and being defense capped.  That one is kind of mandatory, due mainly to the whole idea that, while sure, sucking up a crit on a boss can add some spice to your healer's job, NO ONE enjoys wiping on a boss because their tank is 10% below the Crit cap and just got instagibbed from 2 parry hasted crits back to back.  Which can happen VERY frequently when many raid bosses hit your tank like the pimp-hand of god.

Hell, I remember specificly an instance where that happened to my guild during Naxx Progression.  We ended up haavng an enraged Grand Widow 1 shot our tank with a crit for something like 200 damage more then his max health because he had JUST equipped an item he got from Anub and put himself about 2 defense under the defense cap, thereby wiping the raid. 

While it was funny for a few seconds at the time, mainly due to the fact that it was a 1 in 10000 chance or so event, having that kind of chance hovering over your head EVERY time you tanked something that hit decently hard would quickly lose its entertainment value.

[Ratman_tf]

Holy fuck.  When rumors of Worgen started surfacing I didn't consider the possibility that everyone at Blizzard went completely batshit insane.

Signs of that were evident when a big glowing pink crystal spaceship loaded with blue people speaking with Russian accents crash landed in a medieval world to battle the forces of evil.

Remember when Azeroth was attacked by demon meteors?

[Jayce]

What I don't get is, why can't we just have bosses crit? Why can't we have spells and abilities that sometimes miss?  Putting in stats that directly counter randomness like that just kind of makes the game predictable and boring.  Or just boring it out and make everything hit and bosses never crit, but don't waste a stat on it.

As to Defense and being defense capped.  That one is kind of mandatory, due mainly to the whole idea that, while sure, sucking up a crit on a boss can add some spice to your healer's job, NO ONE enjoys wiping on a boss because their tank is 10% below the Crit cap and just got instagibbed from 2 parry hasted crits back to back.  Which can happen VERY frequently when many raid bosses hit your tank like the pimp-hand of god.

I think it's no bad thing to use talents and equipment to remove dependence on the RNG.  At the same time you don't want to make everything a set-piece in which there are no random effects to react to. 

Suppose you could never entirely remove crit chance but you could talent into something that gives you total crit immunity for a given period of time after receiving one.  That would keep it interesting but not be a guaranteed raid wipe at the whim of the RNG (assuming your tank can take one full crit's worth of damage).

[kaid]

Given how spikey damage can be already in 10 man dungeons. It would be darn near impossible currently to keep people alive on some fights unless they seriously over geared if if you could still be crit. It seemed like at the start of WOTLK the devs were okay with people going into naxx non crit immune but even without crushing blows  its still not viable to be crit as a tank with the current mechanics.

The devs keep making testy noises about how tanks ignore threat and DPS stats in favor of stam and defenses but with the current mechanics and how hard mobs hit I cannot see myself ever sacrificing survivability stats for threat stats at this time.

If they do a change like removing defense as a stat it would allow tanks to pick some more high dps/threat type items without making themselves excessivly vulnerable to doom.

[Musashi]

It's a mentality thing.  I played a tank for a long time, and if I could make up for my healers lack of skill with the addition of defensive stats and my own skill, I'd do it every time.  That's not to say that my healers were that bad, or that I was that good, it's just good sense.  The fact of the matter is that threat, for most of this game's life (yes I know not all), is balanced for people who's threat generation isn't really that good.  So you can get away with sacrificing strength for hp if you know a few tricks.

The devs can cry about it, but the only thing they can really do is tighten the acceptable threat generation, and that really won't fly with the more casual crowd.  I suppose they could change itemization too, but it'd be the same thing.  The cry would be 'catering to the hardcore.'  And they seem to have gotten away from that since Tigole left the project.

[Paelos]

Hell back in the vanilla days before Vael, we didn't even know what threat was. I was personally much happier as a tank just having the dps count to three. That being said, the devs can't have it both ways. They make fights that slam tanks into the ground in 2 shots, AND they want you to stack items to hold threat? Sorry it just won't work that way. You can have a fight with average damage output but that requires a quick enrage and thus heavy dps, or you can have slammer fights where the tank stacks up enough defense to just hold out.

There are those rare fights that do actually combine both in the beginning, but they get nerfed fairly quickly when they cockblock the general pop.

[Thrawn]

but they get nerfed fairly quickly when they cockblock the general pop.

I wasn't playing WoW when WotlK was released, did they do the usual nerf of everything difficult shortly after it was released like they do for most content?

[Paelos]

but they get nerfed fairly quickly when they cockblock the general pop.

I wasn't playing WoW when WotlK was released, did they do the usual nerf of everything difficult shortly after it was released like they do for most content?

Short answer, no. Naxx didn't need to be nerfed much in it's current form because it was designed around being entry-level rehash.

However, all other content releases after that, yes, they followed that pattern. Ulduar came out guns blazing and was progressively nerfed in rather short order. When Crusader finally releases all it's content, I expect they will tune down a couple of fights in there as well for the populace after a month. I doubt they will do that for heroic versions though.

[dusematic]

I'm so fucking relieved this expansh doesn't appeal to me.  If it were a pirate-y/islandy/maritimey expansh, or a Emerald Dream expansh, then, maybe.  But a redone Azeroth?  Look, that's a great idea.  It's convenient to fly in old world.  It will help their bottom line through better retention of new custs.  But fuck my ass if I'm going to delve into this game for that and the chance to YET AGAIN level a new race of the same classes that have been available since 5 years ago.

So you think Blizzard is expecting people to level from 80 to 85 by the power of positive thinking? Of course there's new content as well. Hell, the 1-60 revamp is being given to everyone in a patch - expansion not needed.

OBV. But it doesn't appeal to me to return primarily for 5 levels of redone zones.  Not enough of a hook.