Auto Sports (F1, V8, Nascar)

[fuser]

Kinda surprised there's no thread so I'll try to kick one off and see if there's any interest so here's a F1 recap so far this season.

F1 was shook up in an attempt to make the sport a bit more exciting and drive down costs. Wings were reduced in the rear and put under major restrictions, common ECU eliminating traction control, slick tires are back, and KERS was introduced. One major cost cutting was the elimation of in season testing. Which has been causing ongoing effects as teams trying to improve their cars have to basically race or test new aero in practice sessions held days before the start of a race event.

Really nice Redbull Racing video covering the changes.

Honda was gone and replaced by a team named after their new principle Ross Brawn who pretty much stepped into the roll to keep the team together.

So far Brawn has ran away with the championship due to some cunning interpretation of the rules aka double diffuser and Honda investing in the 2009 car (they gave up on the 2008 car and started designing for the new rules a long time ago). Redbull has been on their heels tho as they have a very well balanced car.

KERS has totally been a bust for most teams (wasn't a mandated requirement, nor were teams required to run a ballast if they didn't). Ferrari was depending on it keep up but almost all the teams have ripped it out as the cars have come into their own during the season, well except for BMW and McLaren.

McLaren has shut the fsck up as half of their team got caught red handed which resulted in Ron Dennis getting out of dodge early and further firings.

So in the past short while the whole series has gone mental. The ongoing FOTA threats to split into a new series which was all resolved in the end with Max Mosley's head on a platter. Then Massa's accident where he was hit by a bouncing 1kg spring at ~140Mph/hr that fell off a brawn car video of the accident. Then the following day during the race Lewis Hamilton took McLaren to their first podium this year.

Now in between the Hungarian GP and Valencia BMW has decided to quit F1 and inturn dinking around with Sauber trying to buy his team back.

With Massa out for the rest of the season,

[stray]

I like any racing involving dirt or mud.. Don't really watch much else.

[slog]

The double diffuser has really screwed up all the changes that the FIA put in to make the cars better.  Until there is clean air behind F1 cars, the entire series will continue to be a funeral procession.


Edit:  Open wheel in the USA is going to hell

The Meijer Indy 300 at Kentucky Speedway earned a .14 national television rating, according to Nielsen Media Research. The rating means 165,000 TV households nationwide watched the race which aired on Versus cable channel starting at 8 p.m. (Saturday) Aug. 1. The TV rating for the race in the Indianapolis market was 1.14, equating to 13,000 TV households

[fuser]

The double diffuser has really screwed up all the changes that the FIA put in to make the cars better.  Until there is clean air behind F1 cars, the entire series will continue to be a funeral procession.

Yep and with minor aero changes next year nothing will change it was shocking to watch Hamiltons charge killed by dirty air. KERS showed some promise last weekend (the launches are crazy). Atleast the next race will be interesting for the Schumacher coverage circus. The refueling ban next year will probbly lead to more of the same as no one is going to be running light.

Edit:  Open wheel in the USA is going to hell

The Meijer Indy 300 at Kentucky Speedway earned a .14 national television rating, according to Nielsen Media Research. The rating means 165,000 TV households nationwide watched the race which aired on Versus cable channel starting at 8 p.m. (Saturday) Aug. 1. The TV rating for the race in the Indianapolis market was 1.14, equating to 13,000 TV households

Wow, that's getting to the point of sponsors asking why even support it. Honestly I don't watch the series I really don't like watching oval racing.

For something different, V8 brakes at Bathurst

[Stewie]

I loves me some F1. The Gf and I watch all the quali and races. Record them all and get up bright an early every saturday and sunday of race weekend to watch.
I am kinda disappointed that MS will not be coming back Source

I am also kinda saddened by the way F1 has been going I would love to see more racing on the track a little som'n like this
but oh well I think part of the enjoyment of F1 is the celebrity of it and the soap opera/drama of it all. 

[fuser]

So Schumacher is out but still debate about later this season, not to mention Ferrari wanting to run three cars next year.

Also big news today, FIA overturned stewards race ban of Renault from Valencia. Which is good because the event would be unpopulated due to Alonso's home race. Oh well the season is getting good with a lot of teams now on par and Massa wanting to come back for the Brazil GP 

[Righ]

Rarely look in this part of the forums, but yes, I've watched every F1 race since 1977.

What's causing Brawn GP problems is getting consistency in tyre temperatures. Something that they have changed on the car is stopping them from finding a balance where they get enough heat in the tyre and the tyre wear is acceptable. Now, when you bear in mind that between every race there's an upgrade that would read like a WoW patch list - hundreds of changes at once, you'll see what a crap shoot the sport has become now that you cannot do any testing. That's too much of a gamble considering even the reduced budgets of a modern F1 team. Besides, F1 is the supposed pinnacle of motorsport - it is supposed to be where we develop new road technology, and that requires constant testing. Is there any surprise at KERS failing when it was introduced at the same time as the most savage cuts in testing in the history of the sport?

The double diffuser hasn't undone the improvements that the changes to the rear wings brought. We're still looking at better air turbulence behind the cars than at any time since the early 80s. Don't forget that the last race was at the laughable Hungoraring. I don't think anybody has ever passed on that race track under race conditions unless they were on a motorcycle. We've had some great passing this season, substandard race circuits notwithstanding.

I'm not surprised that Schumi isn't going to sub for Massa. There would be doubt over whether he could get his neck in shape for an F1 race even if he wasn't carrying an injury. It's not something most people exercise to that level unless they are racing cars.

[fuser]

New rules today http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77775

• Q3 will now be run in low-fuel configuration
• minimum weight has been raised to 620kg

[fuser]

Boring race as expected. Button was rubbish, KERS cars are doing well now that the rest of the cars are sorted.

Badoer has gotta go 

[Signe]

To be fair, he hasn't raced a car in a decade.  Still, very odd behaviour in the pit lane! 

[fuser]

To be fair, he hasn't raced a car in a decade.  Still, very odd behaviour in the pit lane! 

Odd? It's like he thought there was a blue flag, then to cross the white line getting him another drive thro pit lane penalty. Schumacher looked to be in so much pain watching it.  James Allen's blog post on it was an interesting read. It must be a total nightmare for Badoer. Years of testing for Ferrari and he gets called up in a dire need to drive a car for a team he's been testing for years and pining to race in only to have this unfold.

It's a total shame for Badoer and I really feel bad for him as he's letting his extended family of Ferrari down. 

Grosjean did really well too bad the Toyota clipped his front wing, as his Renault was on the race line and (was it Trulli) just smacked him.

[Signe]

I wouldn't be surprised if Schumacher went into overtime getting his neck in shape to take over the car.  And didn't they say Badoer had at least four pit violations during free practice?  What?  Did he push the wrong button or something? 

[fuser]

I wouldn't be surprised if Schumacher went into overtime getting his neck in shape to take over the car.  And didn't they say Badoer had at least four pit violations during free practice?  What?  Did he push the wrong button or something? 

I know three of them were speeding. The rev limiter kinda stops you but I think a few of them he came flying into the pitlane and was bouncing off of the limiter but it dosen't automatically slow the car down 

[Righ]

They have two settings on the pit lane speed limiter these days - 80 km/h for most pit lanes, and 60 km/h for street circuits such as Monaco and Valencia. I'm not familiar with whether the driver has to select the setting or if the team is allowed to program it for a particular meeting.

If only Badoer had driven at more than 60 km/h when he was on track.

[Stewie]

The simple fact that Badoer was more than a second down in free practice is brutal. The guy's main job for the last 10 years has been testing and running the car in practice. I can understand having an issue when it comes down to the race, nerves, lack of experience, ability to react to other drivers, but come on, he should be close in practice.
If he can't even do this he should not be in the seat during a race, ever.

[slog]

that race was terrible.  They should just do time trials at Valencia.

[Stewie]

The race was terrible but I was happy for Rubens. Also as Kimi fan I was happy with his podium.

[Righ]

There's a decent race circuit a few miles up the road from Valencia where many of the F1 teams used to test before the in-season test ban nonsense. Temporary street circuits are shite in general. There are many reasons not to use them and only one significant reason to use them - local political gain. This is about selling Valencia's (admittedly impressive) recent dockland development.

If they are going to race where there is nowhere to pass, they should at least do it one a permanent race circuit with interesting corners and elevation changes that highlight driver skill. There's thousands of race circuits in Europe alone that F1 doesn't use because they are deemed to be too narrow or to have main straights that are too short to provide a racing spectacle for something as quick as an F1 car. Building something worse downtown in a major city might be good for that city's mayor, but its no use to the sport or the spectators.

I personally think that they should ditch Valencia and look a bit further north to Alcaniz where a brand new 3.3 mile circuit is being built to modern standards (designed by Hermann Tilke, who designed all the new circuits that have been added to the F1 calendar in recent years) in a giant motorsports complex. As far as I know, there has been no interest from F1, although the circuit owners are jockeying for the limited pre-season testing with around a half dozen other Spanish circuits.

[slog]

Isn't Tilke the guy who designed all these other new crappy F1 circuits where there is no passing?

[Stewie]

I really don't think you can blame any designer anymore for the lack of overtaking in modern F1.

I think no matter what the layout I think the cars are just not made to pass.  If the cars had a less downforce and were a bit more susceptible to driver error I think we would see more passing but that is just not safe and close to 200mph.

I think Tilke designed the hungaroring which inst all that bad.

All this being said there are some definite do not's when designing a track. We do not need more Monaco's (as much as really really want to go to that race)

[IainC]

I really don't think you can blame any designer anymore for the lack of overtaking in modern F1.

I think no matter what the layout I think the cars are just not made to pass.  If the cars had a less downforce and were a bit more susceptible to driver error I think we would see more passing but that is just not safe and close to 200mph.

I think Tilke designed the hungaroring which inst all that bad.

All this being said there are some definite do not's when designing a track. We do not need more Monaco's (as much as really really want to go to that race)

If overtaking wasn't possible in the pits cars would have to overtake on the track. Allowing refuelling and tyre change stops hurt the sport more than pretty much anything since the dual formula days of turbos. Harder compound tyres to last a full race would also slow the cars down. I remember watching the epic duels between Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell. I wish F1 was that exciting again.

[Stewie]

If overtaking wasn't possible in the pits cars would have to overtake on the track

While this is absolutely true the current aero packages that they run really do a lot to prevent overtaking. when you see a car make up half to a full second a lap and then get stuck behind in dirty air and not being able to pass because of it or that they have such ridiculous grip that there seems to be a much less likely chance of screwing up braking or cornering, something needs to be done.

I do think a harder compound tyre would make the cars more of a handful to control and lead to more passing and really separate the men from the boys.
That being said though there needs to be a whole whack of changes to bring back passing, including the things you mentioned. As for epic duels please to be seeing the 2nd link I added in my first post in this thread :)

[Fordel]

Can someone give me the cliff notes version of "dirty air?".

[IainC]

Basically the airstream aft of the car is highly disturbed and creates whorls and eddies which completely fuck up the aerodynamics of any car close behind. Unpredictable aerodynamics = unpredictable handling and so the second driver has to back off unless he wants to get a face full of the tyre barrier.

[fuser]

Basically what Iain said. The air is disrupted which results in the trailing car's front wing loosing down force upsetting the cars balancing and makes it understeer like a mofo.

There was ton's of work that the FIA has been at for years trying to reduce the effects of dirty air. Some of them resulting in a lot of the aero changes this year.

I really wish they went with a CDG wing(pdf) instead of the current layout, it was quite radical

Resulting in the reduction of wake

[slog]

My theory as to why both NASCAR and F1 are sucking lately is someone simple.  It comes down to these points:

1) The people running the show care about Profits more than racing and it shows
2) Both sports have been sanitized to the point where drivers are just corporate drones that answer every question with a list of their sponsors.
3) The rules put in place in the name of safety have made the product boring (debris cautions?)
4) The TV coverage is painful.  (especially true of ESPN and FOX.)

[fuser]

1) The people running the show care about Profits more than racing and it shows

Ecclestone really has moved F1 towards big business, but its been like this for decades. There's been a lot of corporate movement in teams in and out of F1 but the sport really is build around Ferrari monarch. Ferrari keeps F1 series going and the FIA has showcased them building a further mystique around the company.

3) The rules put in place in the name of safety have made the product boring (debris cautions?)

This has had some major impacts(excuse the pun) on F1 circuits that are now designed to be "safer".

4) The TV coverage is painful.  (especially true of ESPN and FOX.)

I cannot speak much for Nascar besides dur dur durr 3 wide.. dur dur dur running loose dur dur dur, and the digger cam  

What I really think has hurt F1 is the FIA's non stop meddling in rules and stewards. We have had such a mess in the past few years on and off track (mass damper, spygate, diffuser, overturned rulings). The constant rule changes has been crazy and anyone who casually follows the sport has got to be lost.

Don't get me started on the engine rules (ie: frozen till 2013 BS), I miss the crazy over the top v10's that seemed to keep evolving into insane monsters.

[Fordel]

Basically the airstream aft of the car is highly disturbed and creates whorls and eddies which completely fuck up the aerodynamics of any car close behind. Unpredictable aerodynamics = unpredictable handling and so the second driver has to back off unless he wants to get a face full of the tyre barrier.

OH, that makes way more sense!


See, I read dirty air and instantly got the image of someone having a Mario kart like air compressor on the back of their car shooting gas clouds at people.

[fuser]

So approaching the close of the "development" season. Ferrari is done for this year moving to the 2010 car, Renault has changed focus to 2010, BMW is doing a last hurra to increase team price, Williams has focused on 2010 and getting KERS ready. McLaren is the dark horse with a brand new short wheel base ready for Spa and Monza for both drivers but I think the smart money is now on their 2010 season, but they will probably be up front for a few more races.

So really its down to Redbull and Brawn.

[SnakeCharmer]

My theory as to why both NASCAR and F1 are sucking lately is someone simple.  It comes down to these points:

1) The people running the show care about Profits more than racing and it shows
2) Both sports have been sanitized to the point where drivers are just corporate drones that answer every question with a list of their sponsors.
3) The rules put in place in the name of safety have made the product boring (debris cautions?)
4) The TV coverage is painful.  (especially true of ESPN and FOX.)

Pretty much spot on.

Never been much of a F1 or NASCAR fan, but will watch them a bit if nothing else is on.  F1 has become less interesting the more it takes driver skill out of the equation (active aero, traction control, etc).  Conversely, NASCAR has become less interesting because it's all about the driver and less about equipment (restrictor plates, Car of Tomorrow, etc) and more about driver skill which has resulted in the same handful of drivers dominating the series (Jimmy Johnson, others).  NASCAR is only mildly interesting at the beginning, the middle, and the last 20 laps, especially the big tracks like Talledega and Daytona.  The short tracks have some good racing, as do the intermediate like Las Vegas and Atlanta.  Racing should be about 'run what you brung, and hope you brung enough'.  NASCAR used to have some real personalities (Earnhardt, Wallace, the Allisons, etc), now it's completely corporate and 'safe', and as you mentioned 'sanitized'.  The only guys with some personality to them are Kyle Busch and Tony Stewart.

Sadly, I can't get much F1 coverage due to my broadcasting region unless it's late at night or the other sports have winded down.

[fuser]

  Spa

Forcast is overcast high of 22c no rain

Brawn's in trouble this race.

[fuser]

2010 draft calendar

March 14 – Bahrain (Sakhir)
March 28 – Australia (Melbourne)
April 4 – Malaysia (Sepang)
April 25 – Turkey (Istanbul)
May 9 – Spain (Barcelona)
May 23 – Monaco (Monte Carlo)
  June 6 – Canada (Montreal)  
June 27 – Europe (Valencia)
July 11 – Great Britain (Donington)
July 25 – Germany (Hockenheim)
August 1 – Hungary (Budapest)
August 22 – Belgium (Spa-Francorchamps)
September 5 – Italy (Monza)
September 19 – China (Shanghai)
September 26 – Singapore (Singapore)
October 10 – Japan (Suzuka)
October 24 – Brazil (Interlagos)
November 7 – Abu Dhabi (Yas Marina)

Bahrain is changing to a 5pm start time, 5:45pm is sunset so its a dusk/night race  

[SnakeCharmer]

I can't imagine what F1 teams spend on transportation costs, flying all that equipment all over the world...

[fuser]

I can't imagine what F1 teams spend on transportation costs, flying all that equipment all over the world...

I was reading about this before that generally seacans are shipped to the further away sites months in advance. The major parts such as cars + engines + spares are air shipped but most of the rest are preshipped. I think Williams had a special on it covering their logistics might be on youtube or such.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5297.html

[fuser]

Great race today with some interesting revelations.


Bad news? Accusations that during the 2008 Singapore GP that Nelson Piquet jr was "ordered" to crash handling Alonso the victory. FIA has launched an investigation and Nelson has a nice twitter post for Grosjean.