Goonswarm and Scamming

[Marcus kerensky]

  Ok, this was a genuine scam, this isn't a goon forum post about a scam they'd like to pull, nor have I asked for ISK, or suggested anyone should help me out. Second, why are people trolling about BSRs loss if we aren't? Third, it seems to me that all the Goons really want is a challenge.  It's like a highschool full of ADHD teenagers came over and demanded to be entertained. Unfortunately, I think that the sad fact is that most Goons are right, most eve players are stupid, and/or Greedy, and they prove this time and again.  So my guess is that most of the hatred toward Goons comes from the fact that they're are the biggest, and have the best space. They got it by being the most ruthless, and best at fleet combat. Oh, and they NEVER lost perspective. Take a lesson people. All Goons did was teach me how to win...

  As a side not, this is not what you want to see when you jump to a "friendly POS"....  http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/ThaddeusGrey/20090724032150.jpg

[Trigona]

The goons have good leadership and are very loyal to their allies.  This counts for a lot in a game like eve. 

They didn't get to own Delve by being the best at fleet combat, imo they're no better or worse than a number of other alliances, but they are excellent in working with a disparate group of alliances and wielding them into a massive club that beat Kenny senseless.

The problem re goon scams is that if you're not on the blue list then anything goes, no matter how pathetic or mean.  I think most eve players agree that the ability to be total dickheads in this game is one of its more interesting features, it just seems that ripping you guys off is the equivalent of torturing a puppy.

I'm glad that you plan to get even, may I suggest you join the Something Awful forums and for 5 mnths or so post everywhere on a regular basis but nothing on the goonfleet threads.  Then apply to join goonfleet and engineer your revenge.  It's very important that you don't appear to be joining the forums just to get into gf, I'm sure you're smart enough and pissed enough to be able to work out the best way to make this plan come to fruition.

[Strazos]

Just make sure you leave LOVEU unscathed. 

[Murgos]

There is a better than average chance you can get a Titan out of GS at least.  I mean, people who are barely trying to fuck goons manage to get a Titan.

Anyway, the problem with revenge scamming goons is that the ones laughing at you now will laugh just as hard harder at the goons you scam.

[Phildo]

You guys who are in Goonswarm should think twice before you publicly advise someone on how to get into and scam Goonswarm.  Just sayin'.

[Slyfeind]

I'm glad that you plan to get even, may I suggest you join the Something Awful forums and for 5 mnths or so post everywhere on a regular basis but nothing on the goonfleet threads.  Then apply to join goonfleet and engineer your revenge.  It's very important that you don't appear to be joining the forums just to get into gf, I'm sure you're smart enough and pissed enough to be able to work out the best way to make this plan come to fruition.

See, this. I mean really. Has anyone ever gotten revenge on GS, or do they just complain on forums and chat? Yes, it's "reducing yourself to their level," but that's what games like Eve are about, and holy crap, that's one of the reasons we play games. We have a chance to purge ourselves of the crap that we can't do in real life, exercise skills we don't get to use, in a relatively safe environment. In every game, it is ethical and very much expected to take advantage of your enemies' weaknesses. I'd say it's a vice if you don't do this.

Just always keep in mind any revenge will probably backfire anyway, and you'll be good.

[Endie]

You guys who are in Goonswarm should think twice before you publicly advise someone on how to get into and scam Goonswarm.  Just sayin'.

Trigona is NC, not Goonfleet.

Any goons posting actual advice on the technical details of how to infiltrate GF are giong to get an early-morning phonecall from Vio.

[Trigona]

The goons say they are hopeless at eve, that the scamming pubbies is one of the harmless pranks that they like to indulge in, another prank being the ganking of empire miners; after all it's just a silly game of internet spaceships.  Who cares that they go out of their way to ruin the fun of others in a nihilistic fashion - the tears of pubbies sustain them and makes eve worth playing.

Ha and double ha!  The reality is that eve is a very serious game and the goons play hard and play to win.  The thought that the tables might be turned on them is not something that they want to contemplate.  If ripping off and being ripped off is just good fun I wonder why the goons take their security so seriously and go to such efforts to minimise spying and infiltration.   Surely just for comedy value they should make rip offs against themselves a little bit easier.

   

[Amarr HM]

Silly miners minding their own business who do they think they are? This is Eve remember

[Sparky]

I wonder why the goons take their security so seriously and go to such efforts to minimise spying and infiltration.

You mean like letting in literally anyone who coughs up :10bux:?  Goons have been ripped off many, many times by the way - most notably by Remedial and Suas.

[Trigona]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the recruitment scam unique to the goons?  And I believe that because it's such an unusual process that the goons manage to catch so many people.  I've played many mmos and no other corp/guild that I'm aware of has a similar recruitment policy.

The goons salve their conscience saying that their unusual recruitment policy is not a secret and is well publicised, well I think the number of people who get caught out indicates that it is not as obvious as they like to pretend it is.

[NiX]

The goons salve their conscience saying that their unusual recruitment policy is not a secret and is well publicised, well I think the number of people who get caught out indicates that it is not as obvious as they like to pretend it is.

People are lazy and naive. Especially MMO gamers.

[Thrawn]

This thread really make me want to dust off a few ships for suicide ganking. 

The tears from it are so wonderfull.

[WindupAtheist]

ITT: Everyone who is not a goon tries to come up with advice on how to destroy goons. Because fuck it, goons are fun but it's not like they don't have it coming.

As you're making yourself a known face on the SA boards, it couldn't hurt to spend a couple months in a goon WoW guild or something like that. If you have a high level WoW (or whatever game) character already, transfer them to the goon server. If not, try to level one up quickly. Once you have a high level character in the goon guild, spend most of your time giving instances runs and crap to the lowbie alts of established members. This is a great way to make friends and become known as being a stand-up dude.

Then when it's time to go "Oh what is this Eve game about?" anyone who tries to look into your background will see that you've been around for months, you've played other games with goons, and that you're supposed to be a swell guy.

[Sir T]

Ironicly theres a threadon this very forum http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=17475.0 entitled "Emails from an asshole" that basicly is about a guy doing more or less the same stuff and people are cheering him on. Go figure.

[Slyfeind]

The sad thing is, most people who are scammed by anyone in any game just want to forget about it and move on. :(

[bhodi]

There are two interesting things you'll discover if you try and counter-scam.

The first is that goonfleet has a huge habit of turning spies native. They go in initially to spy and discover that it's about a million times better than whatever they were spying for. Either you "get" the community and fit in and discover that it's actually a pretty fucking good place to live or you are ostracized and outed.

The second is that goons themselves will steal anything not nailed down. They are also suspicious, untrusting, fickle, insular, and quick to take delight in someone's misery. If you were ever able to steal something, the victim would simply get laughed at a bit and everyone would move on in a week. No one really cares and so there's no way to take "revenge" in a tit-for-tat sort of way.

[Fordel]

Haven't the Goons already had like 3 Titan thefts and multi billion ISK corp thefts?

[FatuousTwat]

I think more than 3 now? I don't really keep track.

[Endie]

Haven't the Goons already had like 3 Titan thefts and multi billion ISK corp thefts?

The only ones i can think of are all by senior goons who developed entitlement issues.  Most notably Remedial, Suas and that guy who got bored fuelling towers.

[Trigona]

. If you were ever able to steal something, the victim would simply get laughed at a bit and everyone would move on in a week. No one really cares and so there's no way to take "revenge" in a tit-for-tat sort of way.

I think this is just another goon meme such as "we're no good at this game".  If you manage to sell the concept you basically eliminate the gut wrenching blow that occurs when you've been betrayed by someone you thought you could trust. 

Being betrayed is never fun unless it happens to someone else.  The goons are very bonded and tight due to the SA forums and their tribal mentality, in fact Mittens claims this is why they are immune to failure cascade.   I believe being on the receiving end of a betrayal of trust would hurt them as much as any one else if not more.  Gl selling the concept that it won't, unfortunately I fear you will be successful.

[Endie]

. If you were ever able to steal something, the victim would simply get laughed at a bit and everyone would move on in a week. No one really cares and so there's no way to take "revenge" in a tit-for-tat sort of way.

I think this is just another goon meme such as "we're no good at this game".  If you manage to sell the concept you basically eliminate the gut wrenching blow that occurs when you've been betrayed by someone you thought you could trust. 

Being betrayed is never fun unless it happens to someone else.  The goons are very bonded and tight due to the SA forums and their tribal mentality, in fact Mittens claims this is why they are immune to failure cascade.   I believe being on the receiving end of a betrayal of trust would hurt them as much as any one else if not more.  Gl selling the concept that it won't, unfortunately I fear you will be successful.

I can promise you that while some goons might get upset, the general attitude is really one of unforced hilarity, and of trolling those who get worked up.  I could (if it weren't so :effort:) quote you pages of such reactions to such events.  Remedial and Suas had, along with Sesfan, the greatest cults of personality in goonfleet's history.  If you were an enemy given the choice of anyone to take out, those would be the ones you'd choose.  But I was around for neither and each drama was absolutely lapped up.

You're right that this is a meme that makes goons more robust in the face of such events, but it is thoroughly internalised.  The same, of course, applies to the "we are awful at this game".  Yes, many of the most experienced (and highest skill-point) players in the game are in GF; yes, we have arguably the best logistics in the game; as Mahrin has pointed out we have an unusually effective internal market and economic structure, and so on.  But we tell people and ourselves that we are awful, which shatters their morale when we discover that we can beat them, while leading to us being relatively unaffected by the occasional welp day.

The one betrayal that did have an effect was that by AAA when they launched their surprise attack.  But our membership grew by about 15% inside weeks, as people rushed back to the game: the "wobble" lasted only a few hours.  Soon, Suas turned up with his guitar, while UNL, Rebellion and ZAF announced they were with us and had (in two cases) refused real-world cash enticements to backstab us (when Evil Thug was purchased).

[rand]

ITT: Everyone who is not a goon tries to come up with advice on how to destroy goons. Because fuck it, goons are fun but it's not like they don't have it coming.

As you're making yourself a known face on the SA boards, it couldn't hurt to spend a couple months in a goon WoW guild or something like that. If you have a high level WoW (or whatever game) character already, transfer them to the goon server. If not, try to level one up quickly. Once you have a high level character in the goon guild, spend most of your time giving instances runs and crap to the lowbie alts of established members. This is a great way to make friends and become known as being a stand-up dude.

Then when it's time to go "Oh what is this Eve game about?" anyone who tries to look into your background will see that you've been around for months, you've played other games with goons, and that you're supposed to be a swell guy.

no one gives a shit about whether you've played other games with goons or how helpful/important you were in those games

[Yoru]

I don't care what thread or forum you're in, don't be an egregious shithead.

[Slyfeind]

Hm, what about coercing the majority of Goonswarm to just not be there for each other anymore? I'm not saying it's likely, but would it bother any of them?

[NiX]

Hm, what about coercing the majority of Goonswarm to just not be there for each other anymore? I'm not saying it's likely, but would it bother any of them?

You assume they were there for each other and not to protect their jewing.

[Slyfeind]

Well I mean like everybody just getting bored and moving on. That happened in A Tale in the Desert, but it was on a much smaller scale.

[Endie]

Well I mean like everybody just getting bored and moving on. That happened in A Tale in the Desert, but it was on a much smaller scale.

4000+ goons plus alts have a certain momentum.  While we will start to decline at some point, the design of Eve as compared to ATITD, a mind-numbingly grindy game where the number of goons attracted was always low (I played in the goon group there in 2006) is far more sticky and there is still far more reason to keep playing Eve.

Man, ATITD was Korean in its grind.  More bricks.  More flax.  More mud... 

[Jayce]

You assume they were there for each other and not to protect their jewing.

I don't think you "get" Goons.

[Sir T]

Well, like everything it depends. The Ironmei betrayal did hurt Goons a lot as that basically was us getting a system turned on its head and us losing sov despite us doing everything right.  It was also the reason for AAAs successful hotdrops for a while, that the Goon capital director was feeding them intel. That really killed participation for a week and AAA and Bob nearly took the system. One of the things that sent the Suas betrayal into hilarity was that Suas stole the Titan from Ironmei without realizing he was a spy. So goons can be hurt, but it's a lot harder.

The "We are terrible at this game" is a defense mechanism, but it also keeps them honest. Goons don't have a reason to pretend something is brilliant when its completely stupid. When people fuck up, they admit they fucked up. They have no reason to lie because they are goons and they are terrible at this. Where others might pretend they had done well after getting hammered, Goons can freely go " er, well that was a complete and utter welp."

The last point is that goons came into the game from a position where everyone else was more powerful than they were, and would always be. With no grinding there was no way to catch up. The only advantage they could glean was to become the most viscous bastards in the game. The "We are terrible" thing helped with that. All they are is some fat nerds plying a spaceship game, badly. All they could go was up. And scamming came from that, I guess.

[NiX]

I don't think you "get" Goons.