Modern Warfare 2, Prestige edition, -or- hey, blow your wad on this!

[Demonix]

Shadowrun will forever be proof that mouse + keyboard >> controller. They launched with mixed multiplayer. It was patched out in less than two weeks because the PC gamers spanked the console players so hard. That was even with the console players getting aim assist.

I say we end this once and for all. TF2 has console controller support. Hop into a PC game and let's see how it goes. 

I was going to mention Shadowrun in my previous post.  I guess I should have, but being accused of measuring epeen by someone who has likely never observed FPS game play on two seperate systems and compared the styles and motion gave me a good laugh.

Also, to whomever mentioned the forced equalization in console FPSs due to input limitations and autoaim, bravo.  That is an excellent point.

Autoaim = noobville.  If you need it to make your FPS work, you should revist your design.

[jakonovski]

I was going to mention Shadowrun in my previous post.  I guess I should have, but being accused of measuring epeen by someone who has likely never observed FPS game play on two seperate systems and compared the styles and motion gave me a good laugh.

Also, to whomever mentioned the forced equalization in console FPSs due to input limitations and autoaim, bravo.  That is an excellent point.

Autoaim = noobville.  If you need it to make your FPS work, you should revist your design.

Telling a pad player that you could totally destroy them with kb&m is kind of like telling you could totally use a gun to shoot someone who practices swordfighting. Completely. Pointless.

[LK]

You know, I've been playing XBox360 games for, like, years, and I can't honestly recall if the controller has rumble or not. It seems I wouldn't notice either way.

[Cyrrex]

Telling a pad player that you could totally destroy them with kb&m is kind of like telling you could totally use a high quality sword to have a swordfight with someone who uses a crappy plastic sword while in a swordfighting match involving two otherwise equal swordfighters.  Completely. Valid Point.   I hereby retract my last 37 posts on the topic.

I made an adjustment or two, see if you can spot them!

[Sky]

Plastic swords are very smooth, though.

[Demonix]

Telling a pad player that you could totally destroy them with kb&m is kind of like telling you could totally use a high quality sword to have a swordfight with someone who uses a crappy plastic sword while in a swordfighting match involving two otherwise equal swordfighters.  Completely. Valid Point.   I hereby retract my last 37 posts on the topic.

I made an adjustment or two, see if you can spot them!

Finally we can lay this sad, sad line of discussion to rest.  Indeed, it should never have existed in the first place, but for the vagaries of the anonymous and uniformed.

[jakonovski]

I made an adjustment or two, see if you can spot them!

Oh how very witty. Wait, it's not.

[Cyrrex]

I was simply pointing out that your analogy was poor, so I replaced it with a better one.

[jakonovski]

I was simply pointing out that your analogy was poor, so I replaced it with a better one.

No, it's not a poor one. When I play Halo 3 online, my gaming experience will not become better by moving to kb&m. I am also not bothered in the slightest by any Demonixes who could totally destroy my pad wielding self if they were somehow to play Halo 3 with kb&m.

[Nightblade]

Telling a pad player that you could totally destroy them with kb&m is kind of like telling you could totally use a gun to shoot someone who practices swordfighting. Completely. Pointless.

...What?

[tgr]

Jesus H. Fucking Christ.

Just fucking stop it with the stupid already.

[jakonovski]

Jesus H. Fucking Christ.

Just fucking stop it with the stupid already.

It's not like the MW2 discussion was any better. 

[Cyrrex]

I was simply pointing out that your analogy was poor, so I replaced it with a better one.

No, it's not a poor one. When I play Halo 3 online, my gaming experience will not become better by moving to kb&m. I am also not bothered in the slightest by any Demonixes who could totally destroy my pad wielding self if they were somehow to play Halo 3 with kb&m.

That's fair, but that isn't what you said.  The analogy you made had the pad player and the kb/m player engaging in different activities.  They aren't.  They are both trying to fire weapons to kill people, only one has a better instrument to do it with.  My deliberately retarded analogy was better than yours.

[jakonovski]

That's fair, but that isn't what you said.  The analogy you made had the pad player and the kb/m player engaging in different activities.  They aren't.  They are both trying to fire weapons to kill people, only one has a better instrument to do it with.  My deliberately retarded analogy was better than yours.

Be as it may, the point is that why on earth should a console player give a shit about the PC player hypothetically being able to totally destroy him?

[Azazel]

Plastic swords are very smooth, though.

Smooth plastic "swords" with rumble? 

Be as it may, the point is that why on earth should a console player give a shit about the PC player hypothetically being able to totally destroy him?

We were talking about tools for the job. And it was you, I believe that stated earlier that the Pad was a fine (finer?) tool for the job of FPS, since it's just a few fanatical PC grognards that cling to KBM like luddites.

He's also talking about the hypothetical console KBM player pwning the console pad player. Tool for the job again. Flightstick/Steering Wheel/etc. You really do appear to be trolling at this point though.

Anyway, this thread has descended into the level of stupidity where my future posts will probably just be snarky smartarse shit.

 

[Surlyboi]

Be as it may, the point is that why on earth should a console player give a shit about the PC player hypothetically being able to totally destroy him?

Because shooters are all about e-peening. Especially games like MW2 and your beloved Halo. Or did you think all those leaderboards and achievements for multiplayer were there just for shits and giggles?

Your whole argument is fundamentally flawed.

[Cyrrex]

That's fair, but that isn't what you said.  The analogy you made had the pad player and the kb/m player engaging in different activities.  They aren't.  They are both trying to fire weapons to kill people, only one has a better instrument to do it with.  My deliberately retarded analogy was better than yours.

Be as it may, the point is that why on earth should a console player give a shit about the PC player hypothetically being able to totally destroy him?

If we were having a serious conversation, which we aren't, I'd say that it is important to the console player because many PC players would very much like to see the kb/m scheme implemented on the console.  As someone who plays consoles as well as PC games, I would LOVE to see it come to console.  If nothing else, this should concern you to the point that if they ever did so, the kb/m user would have a clear and instant advantage, and let's not bother to dispute that point.  This is one of the key talking points MS uses against it (which I don't buy, but whatever).

And regardless of the fact that many of the console kiddies have grown up using only the stupid pad, the marginalization of the PC platform is a TERRIBLE step backwards for gaming as a whole.  Taking away options is always, ALWAYS a bad thing.  And that doesn't even explore the issue that it is on the PC that all major hardware advances take place...consoles use old PC tech.

[UnSub]

And regardless of the fact that many of the console kiddies have grown up using only the stupid pad, the marginalization of the PC platform is a TERRIBLE step backwards for gaming as a whole.  Taking away options is always, ALWAYS a bad thing.  And that doesn't even explore the issue that it is on the PC that all major hardware advances take place...consoles use old PC tech.

And the core input device for a PC is a QWERTY keyboard, designed for typewriters. Bring back old tech typewriters!  It's using the tech that was available and adapting it / improving it as time goes on. And no, taking away options isn't always a bad thing if it streamlines the adoption process or isn't worth developing for - there is a reason why even PC games are often optimised for certain mainstream set-ups and ignore other options (see: Mac Gaming, The State Of).

I'm hoping consoles completely move past kb&m and into full motion controls. The Wiimote is probably the best step forward in this area, but it still needs improving. Another generation or two and it will probably be there.

[NiX]

Cut it out or I'll cut you out.

Oh, see what I did there? I made a funny AND I warned you.

[LK]

Oh hey, rerail.

So does anyone know where I can find a concrete discussion or explanation of the game mechanics for Modern Warfare 2's multiplayer? Like bullet physics, sway, etc. I'm trying to find something about how the engine operates and ways I can improve my performance.

[MrHat]

You cant play the campaign with 2 people locally?

[Azazel]

There's a series of co-op special ops missions. Not sure if it's splitscreen or not.

Also, in a MW2 vein, the Governor-General of South Australia is trying to get MW2 banned in Australia.
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=18168.msg735966#msg735966

I'm hoping consoles completely move past kb&m and into full motion controls. The Wiimote is probably the best step forward in this area, but it still needs improving. Another generation or two and it will probably be there.

Oh yes, fuck full motion. If I want to play soccer by running around and kicking my feel, I'll go play soccer for reals.

[Mosesandstick]

Really? I hate the Wii, but someone needs to do it right. The level of interactivity possible is unimaginable.

[schild]

but someone needs to do it right.

No, they really don't.

The level of interactivity possible is unimaginable.

Really? Unimaginable? I'm not quite sure that word means what you think it means, because I'm having no problem imagining how it would be a thousand times less compelling than just walking outside on a sunny day. Maybe when I can drop myself in a full VR suit and use brain power to do everything and feel like I'm doing it, but until then, it's just wanking around with peripherals. Only with less wanking and less fun peripherals.

[Mosesandstick]

Do you hate interactivity? The wii is a really piss poor implementation of motion sensing. I can't say that I've ever seen a good one, but that's probably an issue of technology rather than design limitations. What the hell does walking outside have to do with a motion sensing controller? Why the hell do we even play games? Fuck sports games. Go play outside.

[tgr]

I'm hoping consoles completely move past kb&m and into full motion controls. The Wiimote is probably the best step forward in this area, but it still needs improving. Another generation or two and it will probably be there.

If "full motion controls" actually make the gaming experience better, fine. I'm not really into the whole idea of "must run around in full military gear to play a military game" line of thought, although I would absolutely SQUEE with glee if I got a full-sensory driving simulator.

I'm all for controller innovation, though, but I wouldn't exactly say that would be reason to gimp the gaming experience for 2 (or more) genres in the mean time.

[Azazel]

Hey, I'm happy to wave the wiimote around for bowling and golf, and the rest of Wii Sports/Resort/Fit/Plus. But aside from those and the occasional gimmick like Madworld (it's stupid fun, but it's a gimmick game), but Red Steel and Medal of Honor (or was it CoD?) sucked ass for controls, and I'm really just not interested in full-body controls. After a day at work, I like to sit my fat arse down and kill/drive/explode/etc shit using a mouse and keyboard or controller.

M&S - you seem to be missing the point. Of games.

Following your logic - Why play driving games? Go drive around your local streets. Why play shooting games? Just go on a spree down at the local paintball range. Why play Sim city? Just go build a brick barbeque in your backyard. Who play the Sims? Just go fuck your neighbours, and/or build a room with no door or windows in your property. etc.

[jakonovski]

It's not gamepads or waggles or fixed architectures that's cheapening gaming, but stuff like MW2. No dedicated servers for an objectively worse online experience, a five hour Michael Bay movie for single player, those are things we should complain about.

[Mosesandstick]

My point is that differing people enjoy different levels of interaction (we're back full circle). I don't think that I'm the only one who would want a controller to be more responsive and dynamic. Motion control is one of the ways in which that can be achieved.

I'm not saying that I want to be able to feel like I'm playing a full game of tennis in my living room. I don't think I ever mentioned full-body controls. The point of the racing wheel example was that some people prefer having more control, more feedback, etc. Not that people need or want to drive a car.

If I'm sitting down on my sofa and playing a console shooter, I think I'd enjoy better controls than worse ones. I know I've enjoyed using a light-gun when I had one.

[Demonix]

It's not gamepads or waggles or fixed architectures that's cheapening gaming, but stuff like MW2. No dedicated servers for an objectively worse online experience, a five hour Michael Bay movie for single player, those are things we should complain about.

Agreed.  MW2 is bad for gaming as a whole, and people are just eating it up.  It makes me sad, but then I remember the boxes of games I have and the Steam sales of old games for cheap.

but really....60 dollars for a 5 hour SP campaign?  I'm seriously offended...so offended I actually bothered to pirate the damn thing (especially after the disappointment that was borderlands).

I'm getting tired of being burned, but dragon age has restored my faith. :)

On motion controls:  I would love full body motion controls for some things, like sword games or an interactive shooter.  But then, I do those things in real life when i can (fence/paintball).  Still, its too easy for it to become a gimmick just like most of the wiimote controls (the dance thing in smarty pants being a good example)

[AcidCat]

Agreed.  MW2 is bad for gaming as a whole, and people are just eating it up.  

but dragon age has restored my faith. :)

And here I am wondering how people can be just "eating up" Dragon Age, a game without an original bone in its body. That is bad for gaming as a whole, a stale repackaging of the same basic themes and game mechanics we've seen for years and years.

Different strokes.

[Murgos]

It may be bad for gaming to have yet another unoriginal game do well but it is very good for RPGs to have a throwback, deep story, party-based, 3rd person RPG do well.  I'm crossing my fingers and praying that there are high quality follow up clones.

Anyway, for the sake of argument, I'll say that I don't think cloning games is all that bad for gaming.  It lets people know where the bar is so that if they want to have an exceptional product they know that they have to be at-least 'this tall' to ride.

[AcidCat]

Anyway, for the sake of argument, I'll say that I don't think cloning games is all that bad for gaming. 

No, I agree, I think there will always be room for high-quality genre games that aren't really original, but do what they do really well.

I just happen to think MW2 also falls in that category.

[Murgos]

I just happen to think MW2 also falls in that category.

You mean CoD 6?  Yeah, I'll buy that.   

[Pennilenko]

I'm seriously offended...so offended I actually bothered to pirate the damn thing (especially after the disappointment that was borderlands).

Fuck you and your stupid justification. You are part of the problem as well. How about some self control and just fucking pretend that the game doesn't exist and don't even give IW the satisfaction of thinking their stance is justified because of your piracy. Douche-bag