Modern Warfare 2, Prestige edition, -or- hey, blow your wad on this!

[waffel]

I used a trackball for many years playing FPS games. Sooner or later I started to game with an actual mouse and realized that AIMING WITH MY THUMB WAS INFINITELY MORE DIFFICULT. And mind you, this was without the help of autoaim.

[jakonovski]

I admit, I am easily confused, but I dont think I was this time.

You're saying that I'm lying to save face or something? Why would I lie over a video game squabble?

You may wish to check the series of reply's.

I will help.

Generally most mice have a good 2" of throw to them from center giving you a nice linear progression, a stick has a quarter of that and insane acceleration to compensate. Not only is it boosted but to compensate auto aim is heavily used. Your original point is that the stick is "much smoother" which I want explained.

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

Good thing I don't aim with my keyboard?

Yeah, you interjected that after a reply I made to Fuser who was confused. I said aiming is faster and more accurate with a mouse ages ago:

Anyway, the only thing kb&m has is the speed and accuracy of aiming. That can be a gameplay boon or bane, depending on what you want to accomplish (eg. it would be easier to just carry a golf ball into the hole, but what would be the point). Moving with the pad on the other hand is much smoother, and it incorporates rumble.

[Demonix]

No control scheme is an end unto itself.

Really? That wasn't what you said when you began this discussion:

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

Boy, if a console came out with FPS games that allowed KB/M support, even the most mediocre PC FPS player would wipe the friggen floor with the console players.

There's a reason why console gamers and PC players cant play on the same servers, and that is because they would be absolutely DESTROYED.

[jakonovski]

Boy, if a console came out with FPS games that allowed KB/M support, even the most mediocre PC FPS player would wipe the friggen floor with the console players.

There's a reason why console gamers and PC players cant play on the same servers, and that is because they would be absolutely DESTROYED.

Here we have the argument ad penis pendulum.

[tgr]

Err, what's hte problem there? So many millions play console FPS's that I'm trivially proven right on the first sentence. The second may have been a weeeee bit too provocative, so apologies if it truly offended. I mean as I said, I'm fully aware I'm a super-nerd too when it comes to other things.

Let me interpret it for you, then. "the pad is good enough for most people, and keyboard/mouse is just something supernerds use, so who cares about that fringe group?". That is how you came across until the last few hours.

And now it's time for my pizza.

[Nonentity]

You can claim to like the control scheme of console FPS all you want, no-one is saying you can't have that opinion. There are clearly many people who are of that mind.

However, claiming that there is skill parity between console FPS control and PC FPS is an untrue statement. Sure, there may be a level of skill required to be good at console FPS, but the bar is infinitely higher on the PC end. Being able to use a device to precisely point to where you want to point without having to wait for arbitrary acceleration values makes all the difference in the world. Sure, the movement can be analog side can be smoother, but realistically, the first person shooter is all about the shooter part. Player movement is just a vehicle for getting into positions to do more shooting, and to avoid being shot at.

[jakonovski]

Let me interpret it for you, then. "the pad is good enough for most people, and keyboard/mouse is just something supernerds use, so who cares about that fringe group?". That is how you came across until the last few hours.

And now it's time for my pizza.

I'm not very diplomatic, am I? 

[WayAbvPar]

No, you are just a trolly moron.

[jakonovski]

No, you are just a trolly moron.

Yeah, me and 83% of other posters. 

[WayAbvPar]

No, it is just you. Everyone else is disagreeing with you.

[Engels]

Not to steal the limelight from our new friend jackshitski here, but does anyone know if one can set up a game for tactical shooting gameplay matches? In other words, disable run, prevent the MW2 equivalent of vehicles/airstrikes/etc? Essentially, I might reconsider if I can have access to crouch-only tactical games.

[waffel]

I'm pretty sure you can't. You have to play the game the exact way IW intended.

[tgr]

It's not balanced for not having airstrikes/aircrafts/etc..

[Mosesandstick]

Is everyone who buys a racing wheel for a driving game a huge driving geek? People want more control and fidelity. It doesn't matter if I can hit a racing curve perfectly, I want to feel like the control pad is not limiting me, I want more feedback, I want more accurate controls. Is it wrong that I hate my rock band drum kit? The kit is broken, my bass pedal is going to snap soon and I can't get past a 50 note streak. But I can still play the game. Nothing stops me from wanting a better, truer and more accurate experience

[Engels]

See, for me the problem isn't console vs pc. Its the fact that IW can get away with a substandard FPS in the console market. If the console market had an established acceptable baseline for FPS play, then I'd just shrug, buy a console and join the zerg. Even if I couldn't use a precious keyboard and mouse.

[LK]

What would be an established, acceptable baseline for FPS play on a console?

[jakonovski]

No, it is just you. Everyone else is disagreeing with you.

You act like merely professing a liking of gamepads is a mortal offense.  Pfft.

[Murgos]

No, it is just you. Everyone else is disagreeing with you.

You act like merely professing a liking of gamepads is a mortal offense.  Pfft.

Can we get a ruling on understatement of the year qualifications?

[jakonovski]

Can we get a ruling on understatement of the year qualifications?

I do admit getting a bit carried away there, but he chose to emphasis disagreement. The fact that we disagree is not the problem, is it? But that's enough of that subject.

[Engels]

What would be an established, acceptable baseline for FPS play on a console?

Well, for starters, no auto-aim bs. That's just the epitome of lame, but it seems to be the tip of the iceberg.

The whole point, in my view, of multiplayer FPS is to be challenged by people. This requires a steady nerve, good hand-eye coordination, attention to environment and any other number of things that in PC FPS games makes a difference, especially with practice.

My impression from reading this thread and others on the subject is that to a large extent, in a console FPS environment, your gameplay is so cribbed that there's no learning curve. You can only get so good before auto-aim and sloshy console controls simply equalize the field in some sort of 'everyone is a special little soldier' egalitarian drooling retard fest. I may be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

Its like the IL-Sturmovik game that came out lately for console. Its not a flight sim. Its an abomination unto the lord.

[jakonovski]

Bad Company had the option to turn aim assist off. It didn't change the game either way in my experience.

[Mrbloodworth]

Bad Company had the option to turn aim assist off. It didn't change the game either way in my experience.

Did you turn it off?

[jakonovski]

Did you turn it off?

Yes, I played online for about a dozen hours before noticing it, then I turned it off and it didn't feel any different, nor did my performance change.

[tgr]

And how much bigger were the hitboxes compared to the PC versions?

[jakonovski]

And how much bigger were the hitboxes compared to the PC versions?

I have no idea. What does it matter?

[tgr]

And how much bigger were the hitboxes compared to the PC versions?

I have no idea. What does it matter?

[jakonovski]

No, seriously. Bad Company was very much a team based game, one of the few console shooters where even PUGs would advance as a coherent unit towards an objective, calling arty strikes and laying down support fire with MGs. They ruined it with the ridiculous amount of hits you needed to take someone down, but for a while it was glorious.

[Trippy]

You don't move with a mouse do you? Good pad players combine the two analog outputs of movement and aiming to achieve mouse-like accuracy. It takes some practice but after my Halo3 obsession in 2007 I saw the light.

You can continue to believe that but you would be wrong. A game with mouselook allows for virtually instantaneous turning and aiming (only limited by your framerate and how fast you can flick your hand/wrist), something that's simply not possible on a gamepad even when using both sticks at once to speed up your rotation.

On the moving point, moving with a joystick is fine and in fact in many ways it's better than WASD. There was a person in my QW clan that used a joystick to move, for example. With WASD your middle finger (among others) is "overloaded" as it's responsible for both moving forwards/backwards and selecting nearby number keys/function keys. With a joystick or better yet a throttle controller with a hat under your thumb you only have dedicate one digit to movement instead of 3.

[Prospero]

Shadowrun will forever be proof that mouse + keyboard >> controller. They launched with mixed multiplayer. It was patched out in less than two weeks because the PC gamers spanked the console players so hard. That was even with the console players getting aim assist.

I say we end this once and for all. TF2 has console controller support. Hop into a PC game and let's see how it goes. 

[NowhereMan]

People were getting pissed off with you Jakonovski not because you claimed that pads were a fine option for playing FPSes on (which they aren't but hell personal preferences and all that. Not rage worthy) but because you seemed to claim that pads were in fact better for console FPSes than kb+m and proceeded to produce horrible arguments for this. Noone wants to argue that you shouldn't be allowed to use a pad if you want to, they're arguing that they simply don't allow the same level of gameplay and so FPSes on consoles tend not to push the boundaries in terms of gameplay simply because with things like aim assist there really isn't much point trying to make the environment a big factor in map design, etc. (so no hiding in bushes of camouflage).

If you like using game pads for FPSes then keep on keeping on. I don't but bleh.

[Azazel]

So you can walk forwards or sideways at less than full speed. I can count the times I've done that on 0 hands. Yes, that's such a useful feature that we're going to force everyone to use a pad. Great idea. Or, hey, even better idea. We could allow those who think that's such a huge feature they need a pad, to use a pad. How's that?

Rumble? For what? "tactile feedback that I'm firing a gun"? I know. I pushed the button. "tactile feedback I'm in a huge-assed explosion"? Er, yes. My sub just gave me feedback to that effect, along with my monitor. I don't need a controller to hop around on the table or in my hands to know that. I don't see why it shouldn't be available for those who might be so inclined to have a giant double-edged vibrator in their hands, however, for whatever use they make of that. More power to them.

Look, I'm a KB&M guy, but I do find that the analog thumbpad really does work well when playing tactical shooters. I don't miss it when playing a FLS on PC, but when it's available on console games (to allow slow creeps, etc) I do use it. I had a play around on GRAW2 360 last night, and it definately adds to the atmosphere. (finished GRAW2 on PC too a long time ago, but it's a different game - not a direct port).

Same deal with rumble really, I don't miss it when playing on the PC, but I like it when it's well incorporated in a console game. Pads lend themselves to it well.

[Azazel]

Regarding console manufacturers forbidding kb&m in games, why is that? If it really is costing them sales, why do they do it?

I'd wager that MS would prefer to sell you a $60 360 controller or a custom 3rd party controller that they get a financial cut of rather than have you just connect a logitech KB&M. The same reason they've just nuked the use of 3rd party memory cards (and possibly hard drives). This is our proprietry hardware, motherfucker. You pay us.

Something like that.

Oh, it's not costing them sales - not sure where you got that one from. It's not allowed as an option, so people arent used to it as an option, so they live without it. Some even fanboy the decision to disallow the choice on the internets, which is right up there with console-manufacturer-tribal-fanboism.

[Malakili]

I'd wager that MS would prefer to sell you a $60 360 controller or a custom 3rd party controller that they get a financial cut of rather than have you just connect a logitech KB&M. The same reason they've just nuked the use of 3rd party memory cards (and possibly hard drives). This is our proprietry hardware, motherfucker. You pay us.

Given that I KB&M isn't the only reason I dislike consoles, this wouldn't totally switch me to consoles anyway even given the opportunity BUT, if I was on the edge, if I had to pay 60$ for a keyboard and mouse that worked with my xbox, I probably would, if it was the last barrier keeping me from wanting to go to consoles.  Hell, games cost 60 bucks a pop now for Xbox, so whats 60 more to play an entire genre?  If you buy something like rockband you're practically buying a whole separate system worth of hardware anyway, whats 60 more bucks for the "Microsoft 360 Mouse and Keyboard proprietary hardware" or whatever the fuck they would call it.

[Azazel]

See, for me the problem isn't console vs pc. Its the fact that IW can get away with a substandard FPS in the console market.

See:
Halo, series.

[tgr]

So you can walk forwards or sideways at less than full speed. I can count the times I've done that on 0 hands. Yes, that's such a useful feature that we're going to force everyone to use a pad. Great idea. Or, hey, even better idea. We could allow those who think that's such a huge feature they need a pad, to use a pad. How's that?

Rumble? For what? "tactile feedback that I'm firing a gun"? I know. I pushed the button. "tactile feedback I'm in a huge-assed explosion"? Er, yes. My sub just gave me feedback to that effect, along with my monitor. I don't need a controller to hop around on the table or in my hands to know that. I don't see why it shouldn't be available for those who might be so inclined to have a giant double-edged vibrator in their hands, however, for whatever use they make of that. More power to them.

Look, I'm a KB&M guy, but I do find that the analog thumbpad really does work well when playing tactical shooters. I don't miss it when playing a FLS on PC, but when it's available on console games (to allow slow creeps, etc) I do use it. I had a play around on GRAW2 360 last night, and it definately adds to the atmosphere. (finished GRAW2 on PC too a long time ago, but it's a different game - not a direct port).

Same deal with rumble really, I don't miss it when playing on the PC, but I like it when it's well incorporated in a console game. Pads lend themselves to it well.

I'll be the first guy to say I was being overly sarcastic here, those features do exist on the pads, and some people probably do appreciate them a lot. I haven't really seen the point of either of them, the first (analog movement) because the FPS games on the PC have mostly solved this for me (and let's be honest, it's been solved sufficiently that I haven't bothered looking for alternatives yet), the second (rumble) because it just doesn't feel logical in most cases.

When it comes to movement in most today's FPS games, you semirun when you go back/forward/sideways, and shift usually makes you run during those same maneuvers. If you want slower speeds or you want to move just a tiny bit, crouch is there, as is tapping the keys. Yes, it's less precise than what a pad would enable me to do, but the accuracy I could get on the 360's pad just wasn't granular enough for me to think of as a must-have feature. Add to that the fact that 99% of the time I'm either standing still or moving full speed ahead anyways, and the remaining 1% is easily solved by quickly tapping the key, and I just haven't cared to even look for an alternative.

As for rumble, I remember trying a racing game with a pad, and I was seriously annoyed by the rumble. Now, give me a steering wheel and I'll be the guy in the corner, frothing at the mouth explaining that force feedback (not rumble, which is just randomly shaking the steeringwheel back and forth and gives you fuck-all information) is as close to a must-have feature as you could get, since it gives you information on what level of grip the front tyres have, how much you have to countersteer to catch the slide, etc etc etc. Give me a controller that looks like a gun and I'd probably want it to have recoil. Or if there was a swordfighting game, getting tactile feedback on sword striking sword would probably have me running around in circles going squee all day long. But just plain rumble? in a pad? I haven't seen any examples of that doing anything other than be annoying. But again, that's my opinion.

The main thing to note, however, is that I do embrace the idea of people having the choice of those features, if they so desire. I may not, and I'll vehemently argue against those who say I must have or must use certain features in a game, or it'll be "unbalanced", but if they just say "I prefer", then we're into personal preference, and more power to them if they pull it off.