Modern Warfare 2, Prestige edition, -or- hey, blow your wad on this!

[jakonovski]

Maybe that is because WHO THE HELL WOULD PLAY UT3 WITH A CONTROLLER when the PC version is where its at?

This isn't Halo.

Didn't the PC version sell really bad too?

[Mrbloodworth]

Who's stopping the reign of kb&m then? Seriously. With the plethora of funny controllers available, why isn't kb&m thriving?

There has not been a CONSOLE franchise created yet that supports it. All FPS games that support mouse and keyboard are PC ports. What platform do you think fans of that PC franchise are going to pick?

Didn't the PC version sell really bad too?

You seem to be missing the point here.

[jakonovski]

No, I just wanted to point out that UT3 can't be an example of anything, because it failed so hard on every platform. But I do believe that the lack of console kb&m is due to market realities, one of which is that a gamepad is truly good enough for fps games.

[tgr]

Who's stopping the reign of kb&m then? Seriously. With the plethora of funny controllers available, why isn't kb&m thriving?

Maybe because microsoft is forbidding its use in games?

And before you whine about this, this is what MS has managed to put out:

It's for use in MSN live, not for controlling games.

There are "adapters", but they aren't officially supported so god knows if they work.

Didn't the PC version sell really bad too?

Wikipedia says 1 million units total. I suppose you can call that "really bad" in this day and age, if you expect all games to sell like MW2 did. There's a cluephone ringing somewhere near you. Pick it up.

one of which is that a gamepad is truly good enough for fps games.

In your opinion it is, in mine it isn't. You'll probably retort yet again with "[you're] just one of those 100k super-nerds", to which I'll just say "Um. No."

[Mrbloodworth]

How many it sold is a bit irrelevant to the discussion. Also, "Failed so hard"? Its sold more than 5, and less than 3 million. I would like to "Fail so hard" please. It is still, not part of the point.

But I guess its sales figure invalidates any point I was trying to make.  What was I thinking. Oh, I was thinking there was a great amount of joy when it was announced that it would support a mouse and keyboard.

[jakonovski]

Looks like I was under false impressions regarding UT3, all the bad press fooled me I guess.

Regarding console manufacturers forbidding kb&m in games, why is that? If it really is costing them sales, why do they do it?

[Sky]

* Retail sales do not include digital download. I'd guess more units were sold on Steam et al than at brick & mortar

Fair enough. Don't include b&m console sales  

Ah, ye olde k/m vs controller thing. You can plug a 360 controller into your pc, go ahead and use it on your pc online with a shooter.

[jakonovski]

Ah, ye olde k/m vs controller thing. You can plug a 360 controller into your pc, go ahead and use it on your pc online with a shooter.

That's one potential reason for disallowing it on consoles: they don't want to introduce a performance disparity through multiple controller methods.

[fuser]

Moving with the pad on the other hand is much smoother, and it incorporates rumble.

Can we go back to this? Explain how moving the analog stick is so much smoother then a mouse? This is my major problem with consoles is the analog stick acceleration is completely silly. 1-2"mm movement from dead center is slow and anything past that you enter stabbed rat speed.

[tgr]

Regarding console manufacturers forbidding kb&m in games, why is that? If it really is costing them sales, why do they do it?

Fuck if I know, last I heard was MS was saying "it would make the console too much like a computer". It certainly isn't because it's hard to make a keyboard/mouse usable on the console.

That's one potential reason for disallowing it on consoles: they don't want to introduce a performance disparity through multiple controller methods.

Yep. That's why there are steering wheels and flightsticks, because surely that doesn't give anyone an "unfair advantage".

Just face it, any reason to disallow mouse and keypad/keyboard support in FPS/RTS games is just a piss-poor one, and has nothing to do with "making the gaming experience better".

[jakonovski]

Can we go back to this? Explain how moving the analog stick is so much smoother then a mouse? This is my major problem with consoles is the analog stick acceleration is completely silly. 1-2"mm movement from dead center is slow and anything past that you enter stabbed rat speed.

You don't move with a mouse do you? Good pad players combine the two analog outputs of movement and aiming to achieve mouse-like accuracy. It takes some practice but after my Halo3 obsession in 2007 I saw the light.

[jakonovski]

Yep. That's why there are steering wheels and flightsticks, because surely that doesn't give anyone an "unfair advantage".

In my experience they don't. The only place where I've seen it matter is Forza hot lapping.

[fuser]

You don't move with a mouse do you? Good pad players combine the two analog outputs of movement and aiming to achieve mouse-like accuracy. It takes some practice but after my Halo3 obsession in 2007 I saw the light.

  Generally most mice have a good 2" of throw to them from center giving you a nice linear progression, a stick has a quarter of that and insane acceleration to compensate. Not only is it boosted but to compensate auto aim is heavily used. Your original point is that the stick is "much smoother" which I want explained.

[Surlyboi]

Anyone that uses Halo as an example of how gamepads are a better form of control is barking up the wrong fucking tree.

[jakonovski]

Generally most mice have a good 2" of throw to them from center giving you a nice linear progression, a stick has a quarter of that and insane acceleration to compensate. Not only is it boosted but to compensate auto aim is heavily used. Your original point is that the stick is "much smoother" which I want explained.

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

[LK]

I'm actually interested in reading how auto-aim in multiplayer works after once again aiming at a target downrange only to have another enemy run perpindicular across my line of fire and throw off my aim on the original target.

[Mrbloodworth]

Generally most mice have a good 2" of throw to them from center giving you a nice linear progression, a stick has a quarter of that and insane acceleration to compensate. Not only is it boosted but to compensate auto aim is heavily used. Your original point is that the stick is "much smoother" which I want explained.

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

Good thing I don't aim with my keyboard?

[Murgos]

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

Heh.  At some point the analog potentiometer output gets fed through an A/D and then it's entirely up to the sampling frequency and resolution of the A/D as to how accurate it is.  A given high performance mouse may or may not have a higher sampling frequency and resolution so saying something like "analog sticks aren't digital" is only partially true and isn't really relevant.

[tgr]

The only place where I've seen it matter is Forza hot lapping.

Aka competitive play. Realm of the "100k super-nerds".

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

If you really think that has any effect whatsoever on normal gameplay, with the resolution you get on the left stick on the 360, then you've got a very weird way of playing the game.

Or you're grasping at straws. I'm betting on straws.

[fuser]

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

So what your getting at is that player movement is smoother with the stick, so that offsets the impairments with the targeting movement?

[Mrbloodworth]

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

So what your getting at is that player movement is smoother with the stick, so that offsets the impairments with the targeting movement?

Don't know why he would say that, as player movement is a function of the engine and its parameters, and less of the input device.

[jakonovski]

The only place where I've seen it matter is Forza hot lapping.

Aka competitive play. Realm of the "100k super-nerds".

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

If you really think that has any effect whatsoever on normal gameplay, with the resolution you get on the left stick on the 360, then you've got a very weird way of playing the game.

Or you're grasping at straws. I'm betting on straws.

Yeah, I'm aware that I'm a supernerd. Who else would buy a plastic playwheel for their racing game? As far as movement with a stick, I really do prefer it. Maybe I'm playing badwrong but there you have it.

[jakonovski]

Good thing I don't aim with my keyboard?

Why bring up aiming when I'm talking about moving? I was wondering how long it would take for people to realise I didn't mean aiming, but moving. Schlepping. Shuffling your feet. Dragging your carcass.

[Sky]

 

[Mrbloodworth]

Good thing I don't aim with my keyboard?

Why bring up aiming when I'm talking about moving? I was wondering how long it would take for people to realise I didn't mean aiming, but moving. Schlepping. Shuffling your feet. Dragging your carcass.

I admit, I am easily confused, but I dont think I was this time.

[tgr]

Yeah, I'm aware that I'm a supernerd. Who else would buy a plastic playwheel for their racing game?

Maybe people who just prefer to steer their car with, oh I dunno, the most natural/best controller for the job?

It really isn't even close to supernerd country. I was poking fun at your ridiculous "oh mouse/keyboard is only something supernerds want/use" comment.

As far as movement with a stick, I really do prefer it. Maybe I'm playing badwrong but there you have it.

Good for you. I fucking hate it, I think mouse/keyboard is the better controlling system. You don't see me saying "toss the gamepad out, it's for fucking lamers", because I'll just choose to not use a pad.

Why bring up aiming when I'm talking about moving? I was wondering how long it would take for people to realise I didn't mean aiming, but moving. Schlepping. Shuffling your feet. Dragging your carcass.

Have you even played FPSes on anything other than consoles? And actually analyzed how you move around?

[NowhereMan]

How many situations do you really need anything between walking or running in FPSes? More importantly how fine a control do you really have on a pad that means you can switch through all those fine gradations of movement speeds to really make use of it? Best I can see is by sacrificing the ability to aim to a significant degree gamepad users can choose to slowly sidestep at the same time as moving forward/slowly move forward while side stepping while kb users have to move in directions at the same speed. Which is like arguing that giving up fuel consumption, safety and engine capacity for some flat open storage space makes your truck a better vehicle than an estate car which can't pile stuff as high at the back.

[Nonentity]

You only need two speeds in an FPS - sprinting at full speed, and walking to the point where you don't make footstep sounds, and even that speed is optional in some games.

[tgr]

You only need two speeds in an FPS - sprinting at full speed, and walking to the point where you don't make footstep sounds, and even that speed is optional in some games.

But... but... SMOOTHER!

 

[jakonovski]

You only need two speeds in an FPS - sprinting at full speed, and walking to the point where you don't make footstep sounds, and even that speed is optional in some games.

But... but... SMOOTHER!

 

I know, I know, I play badwrong and liking a gamepad is objectively wrong. 

[jakonovski]

How many situations do you really need anything between walking or running in FPSes? More importantly how fine a control do you really have on a pad that means you can switch through all those fine gradations of movement speeds to really make use of it? Best I can see is by sacrificing the ability to aim to a significant degree gamepad users can choose to slowly sidestep at the same time as moving forward/slowly move forward while side stepping while kb users have to move in directions at the same speed. Which is like arguing that giving up fuel consumption, safety and engine capacity for some flat open storage space makes your truck a better vehicle than an estate car which can't pile stuff as high at the back.

No control scheme is an end unto itself. Dick waving notwithstanding, comfort and feeling you're better in control is everything. For me it happens to be analog movement and better ergonomy. I don't like fast aiming, I played enough Counterstrike ten years ago to learn my place.

[jakonovski]

I admit, I am easily confused, but I dont think I was this time.

You're saying that I'm lying to save face or something? Why would I lie over a video game squabble?

[tgr]

No control scheme is an end unto itself.

Really? That wasn't what you said when you began this discussion:

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

[jakonovski]

No control scheme is an end unto itself.

Really? That wasn't what you said when you began this discussion:

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

Err, what's hte problem there? So many millions play console FPS's that I'm trivially proven right on the first sentence. The second may have been a weeeee bit too provocative, so apologies if it truly offended. I mean as I said, I'm fully aware I'm a super-nerd too when it comes to other things.

[Mrbloodworth]

I admit, I am easily confused, but I dont think I was this time.

You're saying that I'm lying to save face or something? Why would I lie over a video game squabble?

You may wish to check the series of reply's.

I will help.

Generally most mice have a good 2" of throw to them from center giving you a nice linear progression, a stick has a quarter of that and insane acceleration to compensate. Not only is it boosted but to compensate auto aim is heavily used. Your original point is that the stick is "much smoother" which I want explained.

Keyboard is digital, analog stick isn't. Can't make it more simple than that.

Good thing I don't aim with my keyboard?